I have read some things online claiming that the Alco PA is the most beautiful diesel locomotive ever.
Personally, I find them ugly. They look to me like a Bizarro World E7, or like the hellspawn of Satan and an E7. Or like an E7 that took steroids and showed up at a monster truck rally.
On the positive side, I do like the top curve over the driver's side window.
What sayest thou?
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder!
Well, maybe that explains why I don't like Alco PAs. I am a wine connoisseur, and EMD E and F units pair much better with a nice Cabernet.
I find myself coming around eventually with pretty much any unit. I was cold on the N&W Class J 4-8-4 at first, but came around and find it quite an attractive locomotive. No idea why that should be. Same with the C-Liner...eewwww! Now I quite fancy them. I was also averse, like you, to the PA at first, but now they seem to fit into the stable quite nicely.
selector I find myself coming around eventually with pretty much any unit. I was cold on the N&W Class J 4-8-4 at first, but came around and find it quite an attractive locomotive. No idea why that should be. Same with the C-Liner...eewwww! Now I quite fancy them. I was also averse, like you, to the PA at first, but now they seem to fit into the stable quite nicely.
Nicely put. Maybe I need to try to appreciate the Alco PA on its own terms, rather than thinking about it in relation to E and F units.
When you talk about ugly - this comes to mind
Closely followed by
I believe that it's important to take it all in context. I enjoy the streamlined diesels from all of the manufacturers, be they EMD E and F units, Alco PA and FA units, and DL 109s, FM Erie builts and C-Liners, Baldwin Centipedes and Baby Faces, or even the more exotic stuff like the big-blow gas turbines. There were a few other oddballs that I cannot immediately recall, that fit with this group as well.
I think that learning the difference between the various offerings were a big part of my becoming a rail fan.
That said, I'm glad that my next door neighbor does not have one sitting out in his back yard rusting away.
BaltACD When you talk about ugly - this comes to mind...Closely followed by...
When you talk about ugly - this comes to mind...Closely followed by...
Could you please share the names and manufacturers of those two? I'm not familiar. The bottom one looks like a Euro train.
Shock Control BaltACD When you talk about ugly - this comes to mind...Closely followed by... Could you please share the names and manufacturers of those two? I'm not familiar. The bottom one looks like a Euro train.
GM&O 1900 was constructed by Ingalls Shipbuilding of Mobile, AL - their only attempt at building a locomotive. I believe the GM&O did operate it for 20 or 30 years.
The SCL engine was built by GE as their BQ23-7. This was an attempt to build a locomotive that could hold a full crew at the time cabooses were being eliminated but two man crew agreements had yet to be negotiated.
I prefer the FPA-4:
No "eyebrows" on the cab sides.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
BaltACD Shock Control BaltACD When you talk about ugly - this comes to mind...Closely followed by... Could you please share the names and manufacturers of those two? I'm not familiar. The bottom one looks like a Euro train. GM&O 1900 was constructed by Ingalls Shipbuilding of Mobile, AL - their only attempt at building a locomotive. I believe the GM&O did operate it for 20 or 30 years. The SCL engine was built by GE as their BQ23-7. This was an attempt to build a locomotive that could hold a full crew at the time cabooses were being eliminated but two man crew agreements had yet to be negotiated.
Ingalls was and is located in Pascagoula MS.
I'd give the PA and edge over an E-8.
https://flic.kr/p/dp3ci3
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
No doubt about it, the ALCO PA and the D&H "Blue Warbonnet" color scheme were made for each other. Honestly, I prefer the "Blue Warbonnet" over the Santa Fe's more famous red one.
It looked great on the Baldwin "Sharks" too.
That Cuyahoga Valley FPA's a looker as well.
I like the PAs but prefer the FAs which are shorter and overall look more balanced. Hey.. its a locomotive.. of course I love it.
[quote user="tdmidget"]
BaltACD Ingalls was and is located in Pascagoula MS.
Pascagoula is only a good stone's throw from Mobile on CSX's NO&M Sub.
BaltACD Shock Control BaltACD When you talk about ugly - this comes to mind...Closely followed by... Shock Control asked: "Could you please share the names and manufacturers of those two? I'm not familiar. The bottom one looks like a Euro train." GM&O 1900 was constructed by Ingalls Shipbuilding of Mobile, AL - their only attempt at building a locomotive. I believe the GM&O did operate it for 20 or 30 years. The SCL engine was built by GE as their BQ23-7. This was an attempt to build a locomotive that could hold a full crew at the time cabooses were being eliminated but two man crew agreements had yet to be negotiated.
Shock Control BaltACD When you talk about ugly - this comes to mind...Closely followed by... Shock Control asked: "Could you please share the names and manufacturers of those two? I'm not familiar. The bottom one looks like a Euro train."
Shock Control asked: "Could you please share the names and manufacturers of those two? I'm not familiar. The bottom one looks like a Euro train."
Early on: The GM&O's #1900 was a personal favorite of mine. It was operated at one point, between the GM&O shops at Jackson,Tn., and Corinth, Ms.
AS Balt noted: (it was a product after WWII, of the Ingall's Shipbuilding of Pascagoula,Ms). They had envisioned it and it's siblings as a family of railroad engines.
They were to include, 1-S thru 4-S, the only one built was the 4-S. As built, it utilized as a power plant a marine-style engine, bySuperior Diesel& Compressors, @1650 hp with 1500 available hp. It was a speculative style build, and once operational, it was campaigned about the industry. Unfortunately, it languished for some time, until it was sold at a bargain price to the GM&O( around about #140K(?).
They(GM&O) used if for some time inthe Moblie,Al area. At one point, it was rolled over; repaired, and earned a reputation for being a very tough engine(?). In the late 1950's and ealy 60's it was based out of the jackson,Tn. area, Often was used in the yard and area of Corinth, Ms. In late1960's it was traded to EMD for new power, the rumor was it was offered for sale to Ill RR Museum, but when they were unable to raise the money, it was scrapped in Chicago(?).
The General Electric BQ23-7 was produced during the time that the Railroad Cabooses were fading into history(1978/79). The 'Q" was meant to designate it as "Quarters"; a cab, that could hold a 'full crew'. It was basicly, a GE B23-7 locomotive with room, and seating for an entire train crew(?). There were less than a sozen of these built for the SAL.
Curiously, they were delivered on Bloomberg trucks from trade-ins to GE. At about their delivery dates, the Unions and Railroads had negotiated the two-man rules to replace the full crews, that had been required with the use of the cabooses(?). So the BQ23-7's began to see their windows covered over and they were relegated to 'non-leader' status by the then owner railroad Family Lines>(CSX). All were gone in the early 1960's.
see linked photo of a BQ23-7 from Ril Pictures.net @ http://www.railpictures.net/photo/390331/?id=390331&showexif=1
and here is a Rail Pictures.net of a BQ23-7 designated as a "B" unit (no crew occupied) @
When I was modeling, there was a model of the GM "AeroTrain': Basicly, it was a single unit locomotive, with one engine (GM designated as an A or AA unit). The various "Zephyrs" carried that designation; as well, as the MoPac Delta Eagle.
The AreoTrain was a stylized engine and a train of cars. (The 'cars' were simply, re-worked city bus bodies,widened and strengthened fit rail use(?). {see last linked photo NYC AeroTrain)
see linked here, photos from Railfan.net, a PRR Aerotrain @ http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr1000a.jpg
Note also, there was a RI version as well ! @ http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_ri1.jpg
and also a NYC (photo): Linked @
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_nyc1001.jpg
Alco PA's = looks like someone tried to sculpt an F7 but gave up halfway there.
Alco PA Engine sound = sounds like it needs a tune-up and is about to fall apart.
samfp1943The General Electric BQ23-7 was produced during the time that the Railroad Cabooses were fading into history(1978/79). The 'Q" was meant to designate it as "Quarters"; a cab
Hence the nick-name- "Q-Boats". Although I doubt the Germans had anything similar on their attack subs!
About the N&W J. Imagine seeing both the SOU RR PA-4 and a J sitting side by side in Bristol, Happened every evening and if #45 on time about 1730.A very good sight to see.
Penny TrainsHence the nick-name- "Q-Boats"
I remembered this:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$b283111;view=1up;seq=7
I always called them "Q ships" but that gets rid of the pun.
Overmod--Link not available or restricted
Not to worry, here's a quick tutorial on Q-ships, for those who've never heard of them. A good sea-story.
www.navymuseum.co.nz/q-ships/
There were three versions of the Alco flatnose: FA, PA and DL-500 (World Locomotive). Also, the flatnose was simpler to fabricate than the compound curves of the bulldog nose.
CMStPnP Alco PA's = looks like someone tried to sculpt an F7 but gave up halfway there. Alco PA Engine sound = sounds like it needs a tune-up and is about to fall apart.
I'm not sure that the PA-1 sound was unimpressive. I've never heard a PA-1 or anything else with a 16-244, but I have heard a 12-244 in notch 8, coupled to two units with 12-251s. The 244 was significantly louder and had a distinctive "snarl" like some high performance automobiles. There aren't many locomotives with 244s still running so I don't imagine many people have heard them. The four D&H locomotives were fitted with 12-251 engines (just like the ones the 12-244 was drowning out....) so they don't count.
McCall in his "Early Diesel Daze" describes the sound of 51LAB starting on Raton Pass after stalling on trials when all three units transitioned together. He mentions a distinctive snarl from the 16-244s, which I assume he had heard in person (if not on Raton Pass that day).
For whatever reason (perhaps extra damping from the full water jackets around the cylinders) the 251 has a different sound to the 244.
A 16-251 rated at 3600HP at notch 8 on a load box literally causes the ground to shake and will hurt your ears if unprotected, but I think based on the 12-244s I've heard that the 16-244 would not have been unimpressive.
Of course, the 567As in E-7s were impossibly loud. I recall the Peoria Rocket sweeping through Blue Island at speed behind three relatively decrepit looking red Rock Island E-7s. I had been concerned about commuters wandering across the tracks but someone clinically deaf would have known to get out of the way...
The PA-1 might not have been that loud but I think they would have sounded good if in good repair.
Peter
M636CThe four D&H locomotives were fitted with 12-251 engines
That didn't happen until they were rebuilt for Adirondack service around 1973. While working the Laurentian and Montreal Limited on D&H's own account into 1971 three of them had 16-244s the entire time, one had a borrowed 12-244 (from an RS3) for some of the time.
To lose the eybrow from a PA, try a PA3.
rcdrye M636C The four D&H locomotives were fitted with 12-251 engines That didn't happen until they were rebuilt for Adirondack service around 1973. While working the Laurentian and Montreal Limited on D&H's own account into 1971 three of them had 16-244s the entire time, one had a borrowed 12-244 (from an RS3) for some of the time. To lose the eybrow from a PA, try a PA3.
M636C The four D&H locomotives were fitted with 12-251 engines
Don't think I was ever around a operating PA. I was around a number of FA's that the B&O had as a kid - didn't really like the sound of them - at idle they always sounded like they stumbling around and ready to die - reving them up to load they sounded better but not much. I have no idea if the B&O FA's had 244 or 251 prime movers.
The EMD 567 in all its varients sounded like smooth power from idle to the 8th notch. Mostly a function of being two-strokes and having a power stroke every time the piston came to the top of its stroke, versus every other time in four-strokes.
BaltACD Don't think I was ever around a operating PA. I was around a number of FA's that the B&O had as a kid - didn't really like the sound of them - at idle they always sounded like they stumbling around and ready to die - reving them up to load they sounded better but not much. I have no idea if the B&O FA's had 244 or 251 prime movers. The EMD 567 in all its varients sounded like smooth power from idle to the 8th notch. Mostly a function of being two-strokes and having a power stroke every time the piston came to the top of its stroke, versus every other time in four-strokes.
The Alco PA sound was something I still recall today. It reminds one of the old 426 Hemi built by Chyrsler during the muscle car era. Like the PA engine, it didn't need a tune up either. For a comparison though, while both seemed like they were about to shut off between each cycle the engine took, only when the throttle/gas pedal was applied did they "come alive," and there they proved to be the classic engine. Yes, the sound of the PA is the sound of a classic diesel. As for the looks, I'll take it anyday over the E8/E9's . . . but then again, it's the sound of that diesel engine I'll always remember.
isn"t it all relative to what you get to see these days?. i've been watching Del.Lack operate 4-6 old, dirty Alcos for a while. They work and i still look forward to seeing them, especially when they break out a "new" engine, you haven't seen before. the other day they had a something + Adirondack hooked up. 6 engines pulling about 75 cars.
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