I believe they eventually could operate as far "Northwestern" as Altoona Yard, which is next to Eau Claire, WI. Weighing in at 498,000 lbs, they were the largest 4-8-4s built at that time and were only superseded in weight by a few classes of Northerns such as the ATSF 2900s and the Western Maryland Potomacs.
As built...
Rebuilt...
Hauling black diamonds...
Broadside view...
The competition...
The H class was restricted to the Chicago-Omaha main and certain freight routes out to Proviso to Milwaukee and just short of the Twin Cities, primarily due to light bridges. The aforementioned mechanical problems plus frame problems would have caused any road to be disappointed with them.
I remember that fine Trains Magazine article on the C&NW 3000 series "Zeppelin" 4-8-4's - it was a great article with many photos and maps. I was surprised how unhappy C&NW was with them considering that most railroads found the "northern" to be superior without question.
I believe they were heavy and large and were restricted to operate only on certain track between Chicago and Omaha and were plagued with bearing problems which the railroad put up with for 11 years and struggled to overcome.
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Of the 35 H Class "Northerns" built in 1929 things began changing when C&NW shopped them with complete overhauls starting in 1940 with the first 10 locomotives. These rebuilds included "roller bearing" design, Boxpolk drive wheels and light weight rods, but did not address many additional early design problems. Radical changes in the shopping process in 1946 - 1949 resulted in the last 25 engines coming out much better.
Starting with C&NW 3004 this last group recieved - additionally - brand new cast nickel steel frames with integral cylinders - brand new boilers and fireboxes with different flu tube size pattern. The result! - the following 25 engines were designated the H-1 series - and were considered to be almost entirely different locomotives.
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The 35 C&NW 3000's 4-8-4's of both H and H-1 class had a very long service life of 26 years - compare that to the mighty N&W J's like 611 that ran ony 6 years and famed NYC "Niagara" that ran less than 10.
The C&NW 3000 "Zeppelins" were scrapped starting in 1950 - the last rebuilds ran until 1956 - unfortunately none of these very long serving early "Northerns" were saved.
Doc
kgbw49 It is my understanding, from what I have read, that they could definitely "get the Led out" with their 76 inch drivers, occasionally being used on the varnish.
It is my understanding, from what I have read, that they could definitely "get the Led out" with their 76 inch drivers, occasionally being used on the varnish.
On the Overland Route.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
TRAINS had an excellent article in October 1970 titled "Zeppelins they were called but Zeppelins they were not" which covered the C&NW H/H-1 in depth.
Yes, it was called the 'outside cradle' or 'banjo frame'. The CV 2-10-4s also had them, as did the C&NW H class. Unfortunately, this arrangement was weak and needed frequent repair so the H class was rebuilt without them.
Dr. D, I seem to recall that some of the earlier coal-fired Northerns had that outside frame because they could fit a larger ashpan under the fire box. The first Northern Pacific 2600s burned low BTU coal and had that same outside frame. Not 100% sure on that but recall reading something of that nature. Here is the first 4-8-4 which gave the type the Northern name...
kgbw49 -
Spent much of my youth riding behind CN 6218 - long and lanky Northern Northern. I just love that rear truck "skirt" - I always wondered why they did that?
A Big Apple...
A Dixie...
A Potomac...
A Pocono...
A Wyoming...
A Northern Northern...
U-3-b kgbw49 And I am scratching cobwebs here, but I seem to recall Canadian National called their 4-8-4s Confederations. The first CN 4-8-4 was named Confederation, but they were called Northerns. There was a great article in CN Lines magazine a few years ago dispelling the whole Confederation thing. Steve
kgbw49 And I am scratching cobwebs here, but I seem to recall Canadian National called their 4-8-4s Confederations.
And I am scratching cobwebs here, but I seem to recall Canadian National called their 4-8-4s Confederations.
They also were given a small metal plate affixed to the cylinders on each side which read "Northern Type". Not only did CN and subsiduary Grand Trunk Western have the largest 4-8-4 fleet at 201 locomotives, they were also dual-service engines. And they had relatively light axle loadings to permit running over many of the poorly built/maintained lines CN inherited.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
And on the Lackawanna they were called "Poconos."
By the way, there was no way those good Southern railroads like the C&O and the N&W were going to call their 4-8-4's "Northerns!"
I understand 4-8-4's were known as Potomacs on the Western Maryland; Wyomings on the Lehigh Valley.
Tom
The H1 was indeed a fine machine.
As to other names:
Central of Georgia 4-8-4s were known as Big Apples.
Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis 4-8-4s were known as the Dixie type.
Norfolk and Western 4-8-4s were, of course, just known as J.
Dr DSome "Northern" like the C&NW 4-8-4 were obtuse constructions
Really? Some folks here think the H-1 and even better, the H-1b were pretty cool, powerful machines. 'Zeppelins'
Definition - Northern 4-8-4
Large passenger or duel service freight/passenger railroad steam locomotive developed in the 1930's epitomizing the railroad power of America in the 1930's thru 1950's.
The 4-8-4 design never lived out it's natural life in service and its full design potential was never fully realized because of railroad dieselization.
Late technological developments in the 1940's suggested design evolution towards refinement of the 4-8-4 with "Poppet Valve" technology and similar multi cylinder designs such as the 4-4-4-4.
Key to the power was the large firebox with combusion chamber large enough to need a supportive four wheel rear engine truck.
A leading four wheel guide truck for effective tracking at high speed.
Eight drive wheels indicative of a locomotive of capacity larger than the designs of 4-6-2 and 4-6-4 capacity and supportive of a greater overall boiler size and power.
The main rod design connecting the cylinder drive to the second set of drive wheels thereby reducing the rotating mass of the drive rod assembly at speed.
Light duty 4-8-4 were designed for big power on light load branch line service distributing weight over light wheel loadings. Heavy duty 4-8-4 were designed as massive powerhouses suited as the ultimate in high speed steam passenger usage.
C&O 4-8-4 were called "Greenbrier" and the NYC 4-8-4 were called a "Niagara" on all other railroads they were 4-8-4 "Northern" unless someone knows a differen monkier?
Some "Northern" like the C&NW 4-8-4 were obtuse constructions and some like the UP, AT&SF and NYC 4-8-4 were beloved creations. Many were generic - most railroads seemed to hold them in awe saving many examples - others scrapped every locomotive. Quite a few are preserved today - I think the largest examples of surviving steam locomotives - unless that honor would go to the ubiquitous, doughy and generic freight 2-8-2.
Because of its size, power, and versitility most railfan operators desire and consider the 4-8-4 as the ultimate "railfan excursion engine."
We can only speculate on the likely existance of a 4-8-6 or a 6-8-6 which only the Pennsylvania Railroad even contemplated.
We can only speculate on what the 4-8-4 "Northern" would have evolved to become with further exhaust development and combustion design modernizations.
Here is another dual-service, er, "General Service" class.
Mail service...
Commute service...
Helper service...
Passenger service...
Freight service....
Great pictures , send some more. Please
Here she comes...
And there she goes....
And a couple of ATSF 2900s...
On freight...
On varnish....(Almost "General Service" for the SP aficionados out there.)
I think I read this in "Trains" several years ago, but it was said the UP didn't realize just how good the 800's were until they were dropped from passenger service and given freight assignments. Those 4-8-4's performed outstandingly as freight haulers.
Good call out up 800's as well as NYC Niagara's did both very well.
The 4-8-4 could reasonably be considered a dual-service design. Many were built primarily for freight service and more than a few were purchased for heavy passenger service and had fast freight service added to their duties.
I think you nailed right on the head.
Reading Railroad T1's were interesting locomotives for 4-8-4 Northern types. Particulary because they were built as 2-8-0 Consolidations in 1923 and operated on the Reading RR for 23 years in this capacity. Very late in the steam game in 1945 all 30 engines were rebuilt into the 4-8-4 configuration and ran as such for 10 years until retirement in 1956. Although the Northern 4-8-4 was a passenger type design Reading RR built and used them primarily for freight service.
Makes one wonder why Reading did not build the 2-8-0's into 2-8-4's which were a more widely accepted freight design. At any rate these 4-8-4 primarily freight engines RR2100, RR2101, RR2102 and RR2124 have survived remarkably well into the 21st century as railfan passenger engines!
I myself spent many years in the 1970's chasing RR2101 running the Chessie Safety Special through Michigan. Including quite a bit of comparison of 4-8-4 types when Ross Rowland changed over to C&O614 - the comparison of the two locomotives doing the same excursions. Some pulled by the Reading Northern and others the C&O Northern was a remarkable experience - C&O614 was "roller bearing" equiped and Ross had finally got his hands on a real fast high speed Northern and he wasn't afraid to show it.
Grand Trunk Western had been running the Canadian National 4-8-4 "light weight" Northern CN6218. Then the Reading Railroad RR2101 came along which was a much heavier and more massive engine. This was followed by the C&O614 "powerhouse" - an extremely fast roller bearing locomotive. Finally, Norfolk Southern got in the act reviving N&W611 which topped the game with its streamline form and fast turning all roller bearing 69" drive wheels which gave such tremendous acceleration.
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RR2102 also came to Detroit to run excursions on the Grand Trunk in the 1970's and I enjoyed seeing RR2102 in its much more historic black Reading RR paint job with yellow lettering. It was much more photogenic in Reading RR livery. The Chessie Steam Special in Yellow with the giant kitten siloheuette was cute and interesting but an eyesore of a paint job for a historic steam locomotive fan - it really lacked a historical precident, but I guess it served C&O for its "big Alice the goon" marketing purposes.
I also enjoyed the chance to sit in the engineer seat and shovel coal into the live firebox of RR2102 when it was banked and laying over at the GT&W Milwaukee Junction Yard in Detroit. Dad and I had gone to take night photos and unknown to him one of his legal clients was tending the engines. The red carpet went out to sound the whistle also.
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I think the Reading T1's are truely unique engines for their "remarkable regenerative capacity" their ability "to come back to life" - except for maybe RR2124 - I think it must be something about their styling - they look impressive - easy to fix - old school friendly - and appear such that anyone could repair and run them again.
Just my impression!
To expound a bit on my original comment...
2102 is owned by the Reading and Northern, Andy Muller's railroad. Mr. Muller's been a steam freak for a long, long time and used to do steam runs on the R&N until business got so good and the road so busy they just couldn't do them anymore.
I don't know Mr. Muller, but in addition to being a railfan he has to be a businessman. Could be he can't justify the expense of bringing back 2102 but if an "angel" steps up and offers to cover the cost that's another matter.
May be too good to be true, but let's wait and see.
I never rode the rambles, chase her every where in the 70' and 80's
Long live the 2102.... And her t 1 sisters
To be honest, I'm not holding my breath. I've seen a lot of ambitous projects such as this quickly go under because the funder(s) backed out when they got a good look at the price tag.
But I wish this project luck, seeing that picture kgbw49 posted really took me back to a scene I never had the privilige of seeing.
With apologies to Ring Announcer Michael Buffer, "Let's get ready to ramblllllllllllllllllle!!!
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