Dr D carnej1 - Congradulations on your current Rhode Island citizenship - my own family came from Scotland to America of the 1720s. We are a titled family that supported the cause of Scottish independance from England in the days of Robert Bruce, William Wallace, and the Black Douglass who fought the Jacobite cause against the English rule of Scotland. And yes it grinds me everytime I see that figurehead Queen Elizabeth II vacation at the Scottish Palace of Holyrood in Edinburgh. As an American today I admire Ireland for its freedom, and shake my head at Scotland which recently turned down its own long sought independance. Industrialist F. Nelson Blount gave us a wonderful lasting heritage of steamtrain America in his Steamtown USA of Bellows Falls, Vermont. It is a shame this was for the most part destroyed by radical and overzealous enviornmentalists like those who polluted the Animas River of the Durango and Silverton narrow gauge steam railroad this summer. The Enviornmental Protection Agency should jail itself! I cannot see where a few steam locomotive trips through the Vermont countryside really contributed much one way or the other to air polution in America. Apparently the same steam trains running the Colorado narrow gauge do not matter. Donald Trump who is obviously a great American whether you like his politics or not - could with the stroke of a pen reproduce the Pennsylvania T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4. I would think as a group we would all be interested in cultiviating such persons of economic power for railfan purposes. Trump like Blount could also easily create a Steamtown USA at Elkhart, Indiana running steam trips for the Chicago millions out and over the Illiniois and Indiana farmlands - and he could easily run past "road block" Mayor Dick Moore and his "noise police" and give us an operating New York Central Mohawk 4-8-2 NYC 3001. With the stroke of a pen! Just my opinion of course. Doc
carnej1 -
Congradulations on your current Rhode Island citizenship - my own family came from Scotland to America of the 1720s. We are a titled family that supported the cause of Scottish independance from England in the days of Robert Bruce, William Wallace, and the Black Douglass who fought the Jacobite cause against the English rule of Scotland. And yes it grinds me everytime I see that figurehead Queen Elizabeth II vacation at the Scottish Palace of Holyrood in Edinburgh. As an American today I admire Ireland for its freedom, and shake my head at Scotland which recently turned down its own long sought independance.
Industrialist F. Nelson Blount gave us a wonderful lasting heritage of steamtrain America in his Steamtown USA of Bellows Falls, Vermont. It is a shame this was for the most part destroyed by radical and overzealous enviornmentalists like those who polluted the Animas River of the Durango and Silverton narrow gauge steam railroad this summer. The Enviornmental Protection Agency should jail itself! I cannot see where a few steam locomotive trips through the Vermont countryside really contributed much one way or the other to air polution in America. Apparently the same steam trains running the Colorado narrow gauge do not matter.
Donald Trump who is obviously a great American whether you like his politics or not - could with the stroke of a pen reproduce the Pennsylvania T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4.
I would think as a group we would all be interested in cultiviating such persons of economic power for railfan purposes.
Trump like Blount could also easily create a Steamtown USA at Elkhart, Indiana running steam trips for the Chicago millions out and over the Illiniois and Indiana farmlands - and he could easily run past "road block" Mayor Dick Moore and his "noise police" and give us an operating New York Central Mohawk 4-8-2 NYC 3001.
With the stroke of a pen!
Just my opinion of course.
Doc
so why don't you open your checkbook to finance all these projects?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
kgbw49 I appreciate your appreciation, and that quote from the famous Senator Blutarsky!
I'd certainly donate to resurrect that 4-6-4T myself. Maybe if I hit the Powerball tonight I'll fund it myself!
You know, instead of leasing one of the Quebecker 4-6-4T's I'd try and see if they'd be interested in a swap, say for the 4-4-4 Jubilee type Steamtown has that has no relation to American railroading at all. Then you'd have your Boston and Albany engine!
As I'm an old Jerseyman you can guess what 'roads markings I'd prefer to see on the unit!
"What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H--- no! And it ain't over now! 'Cause when the going gets tough.......................The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!"
John "Bluto" Blutarsky in National Lampoon's Animal House (1978)
Actually, Mr. Firelock76, that is an absolutely awesome idea!
And jumping on the "what if" bandwagon, I wonder if it would be possible to lease one of the two remaining units in Quebec? Bring that one down and use your template of an idea to overhaul it and paint it as Boston & Albany. Economical power ensured for several decades of real, actual steam operation at Steamtown with two iconic Northeastern railroads represented!
Actually, it is too bad that more of those units don't exist, because one can think of operations across the country that could benefit from such an economical unit. The Niles Canyon Railway, Lake Superior Transportation Museum, Minnesota Transporation Museum, Tarantula Railroad and Black Hills Central are just a few off the top of my head that could benefit from such a unit. Granted, they were not used in those areas, but an inexpensive unit to run drops more money to the bottom line, thereby improving the chances of long term financial stability for those operations.
But to come back to close the loop, what an absolutely great idea! I would donate to that one - it is just so eminently logical!
Just thinking out loud here...
When Steamtown began operations in the early '60s they were using a Canadian 4-6-4T commuter engine, which I imagine was a pretty economical unit to run.
As they didn't have any papers on the locomotive as to it's maintanance history the ICC forbade operation of the unit, and it hasn't run since.
I know 50 years is a long, long time, but if the locomotive was in good mechanical shape when it was taken out of service it would seem to me a restoration to operational status wouldn't be an impossibility. Worse locomotives have been brought back to life. Look at that Jersey Central 0-6-0 the folks in Minersville PA have restored.
Restore the 4-6-4T, it'll have new papers, and since it's a close relative of the Jersey Central 4-6-4T's slap some CNJ markings on it to go with the CNJ coaches they've got and there you go. An economical unit for short runs in the Scranton area.
Like I said, just thinking out loud.
Thanks for all the follow-up to my original posting. I am working on a fresh blog posting, set as a sort of article, on what I found last weekend when I visited Steamtown. In a "preview" summary, I found the site immaculate, but still steamless.
The Baldwin shop switcher 0-6-0 is nearly ready, but so too it was six weeks ago. Rangers (who did not want to be attributed by name) advised me that work remains to be done on the ash-pan. A peak into the restoration shop about 200PM on a Friday afternoon showed no one working at that time on the project.
Outdoor equipment near the round house is now well painted, except oddly, the UP Big Boy, which looks realistically road-weary, but far better than the engines further out in the long-term storage yard like the CPR 4-4-4 "Jubilee".
Again I will try to get something up in a few days.
Footnote: Steamtown's departure from Vermont was far more about the hope to get to a larger population center than it was about NIMBYs here in Vermont. It is true that the state's billboard law would not allow adequate signage (in Steamtown's view) on I91 leading up to Belows Falls, but the anti-steam agitation had subsided before Steamtown decided it had to go.
The much greater problem was a lack of funding (at Mr. Blount's death much of the financial backing for the museum died with him and he was not nearly as rich as Steamtown might have wished either) and ridership in Vermont had been declining for several years before the decision was made to seek a new site. Further Steamtown had never completed the buildings needed to protect the collection at the Vermont site.
Scranton and Kingston, NY (where the trains would have run on the former Ulster and Delaware/NYC Catskill Mountain Branch) were the "finalists" and Scranton prevailed. But the cost of the move far exeeeded Steamtown's resources, the ex-Lackwanna RR facilities there for servicing engineds were at least in part in ruins and ridership, initially great, rapidly declined.
I'll comment more on the involvement of the National Park Service later, but this matter was and remains complictated by far more than any inattention or confusion by Federal bureaucrats. It was unfortunate not to see active work moving rapidly to get the Baldwin switcher running for fall color time (and for the weekend that would have featured the NS/NKP 765 trips to Binghamton if they had not torpedoed by CPR insurance demands), but lack of funding and unclear mission also deeply enter into this matter.
Again my thanks for all the intesesting posts. More to come.
Carl Fowler
Mr. BaltACD I liked your post. It supports my supposition about ulterior motives behind some "NIMBYism."
Dr DThe citation for Vermont environmentalists closing of Steamtown USA in Bellows Falls, Vermont is from Wikipedia - see Steamtown USA.
Also cites declining visitor attendance and disputes over the use of track.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The citation for Vermont environmentalists closing of Steamtown USA in Bellows Falls, Vermont is from Wikipedia - see Steamtown USA.
The Enviornmental Protection Agency has forced the closing of many of the coal burning electrical generation power plants in the USA.
During the Obama Administration. As of August 15th, 2015 a major threat to the US power grid has risen over the EPA deadline for closing of coal burning power plants or the coversion of them to natural gas
Much of the coal mined in the USA is simply sold overseas to Europe, the United Kingdom and Netherlands where it is still burned.
Apparently the developers lost out, as now the Riverside location near Bellows Falls VT, that was the Site of Steamtown, is now a Green Mountain RR yard with a large transload operation.
Firelock76 Got to watch out for those NIMBYs brother. Once they move in you're doomed, no matter who you are or how long you've been there. Racetracks, hog and chicken farms, kennels, and gunclubs in their various locations for decades have all fallen victims to those whiners.
Got to watch out for those NIMBYs brother. Once they move in you're doomed, no matter who you are or how long you've been there. Racetracks, hog and chicken farms, kennels, and gunclubs in their various locations for decades have all fallen victims to those whiners.
NIMBY's in many cases are not nimby's - they are developers in sheeps clothing. Viewing the land these activities occupy as 'prime' developable land, which if the nimby's can put out of business, can be optained for the proverbial 'song' ie. Fire Sale pricing.
A club I am a member of own's a road racing track outside a substansial city in the South. The number of times the club has been approached to sell the track are beyond number - most of the offers come under the guise of 'automotive interests' that no one has ever heard of and once due diligence is done - the truth comes out - developers.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
From what I have read about Steamtown USA leaving bellows falls for Scranton pa was a general disagreement between the locals and the Steamtown USA foundation. Blunt was a pretty hard nose businessman and locals didn't take direction well from " out siders ". With a lack of vision and a plan for growth, Steamtown left. Never heard of environmental issues. Unfortunately there has to be a balance between all kinds of activism, both environmental and rail fans. Generally speaking the locals usually win out over outside interference. Bellows fall never really recover from the loss of Steamtown USA
Doesn't strike me as off-topic Mr. Connor. Anytime evironmental "activism" threatens this railfan world we love we should know about it.
I put activism in quotes because there are times when I suspect it may be a cover for something else or an ulterior motive.
Firelock:
One organization I am with (The Wabash, Frisco, and Pacific RR) is a 12'' guage live steam passanger operation. Every few years the State enviromental people come around, poking there noses in to make sure we're in line.
Of course, they ussually leave impressed with our operation, so we don't dump fuel and trash in the woods, and everythings fine.
I know, I know.
-S. Connor
Seems to me the environmentalists (and this discussion is the first I've heard of it) who chased Steamtown out of Vermont probably had more NIMBY in them than environmentalist.
As I understand it, steam locomotives are exempt from any pollution regulations, so the EPA isn't going to bother them. State environmental agencies are another matter but I haven't heard of any steam operation being harassed by same.
Dr D Steamtown was started by a Donald Trump style seafood industrialist named F. Nelson Blount.
Steamtown was started by a Donald Trump style seafood industrialist named F. Nelson Blount.
As a "Naturalized" (I was born in Massachusetts but have lived most of my life in the Smallest state) Rhode Islander I must vigouously protest the comparison of Mr. Blount with a Real Estate Developer from New York City.
F. Nelson Blount grew up shellfishing rather than managing his Dad's rent controlled properties and I'm certain he would never have been caught dead sporting a hairstyle that looked like a bad toupee. Mr. Blount was also wise enough not to enter politics...
How many Steam Locomotives has Donald Trump restored (well, I imagine he and Ross Rowland may be acquainted but still...)?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
The ebt is an excellent example of preservation failing. The ebt much like the Rio grand operations was abandoned pretty much intact, including the r of w, locomotives, rolling stock and shops. It was saved by the scrapper who bought it. Operated by various groups but has never been able to sustain itself. Today it is pretty much dormant. I am not knocking those who invested both their time and money, but preservation under taken by volunteers, private company's or the federal government is hard.
Before posters assume that big bad government has no role in preservation, one might look at the c&ts for a successful preservation . the line was saved by the states of new Mexico and Colorado. The line is operated by a private contractor, helped by 1000 of hours from volunteers and still supported by the states.
Private/ government operations can work in rail preservation.
On the other hand, Greenfield Village is a fine example of where a private collector who thought history was bunk bought up a variety of buildings and relocated them away from their historic context. This is also how things can "work" without government.
Wow! I forgot all about the Edaville Railroad. I had visited it as a child back then. Oops! I'm showing my age. I also had forgotten that was the early beginnings of Steamtown. Thank you for that. I still feel government has no business in the steam rail tourist train and rebuilding projects. Complicates things too much and gets mired in politics. Look at Ely, Nevada and the fellow who built the Leviathon. Those are two good success stories on how it works without government.
Dr DI forsee F. Nelson Blount's vision of future days of STEAM TRAIN GLORY!
Don't forget - Neson Blount wanted to preserve all manner of steam, not just steam railroading.
Also, NPS Steamtown in Scranton was set up alongside the newly developed downtown mall. At that time, malls were a pretty big deal. Most of the country's indoor malls shut down/downsized to almost nothing in the early 21st century. Steamtown mall took a huge hit. Kind of hurt the whole Steamtown package as envisioned.
If it was a private concern, it would have been shuttered by now for sure. How's the EBT doing lately?
Left out of a page and a half of blather in this discussion is a fundamntal fact:As a government entity, Steamtown NPS is forced to operate under an entirely different protocol than a private entity like the Strasburg RR or the Grand Canyon, or a non-profit organization.Being a Federal entity mandates strict oversight and utterly massive regulation of everything from procuring material to use (is the paint non-toxic, environmentally friendly, etc.?) to having professional services done (does the company have an approved track record? Do they hire minorities/women? etc.).When, say, the Strasburg dismantles a locomotive and finds unexpected problems, they can just shrug and re-budget money and employee workload accordingly, because it's their money, and they have to answer to only a paltry few stockholders. Do that with, say, 3713 or 2317, and someone has to rewrite contracts. And another system of checks and balances is also in place to (try to) assure that graft and mismanagement isn't happening. You'll see similar encumbrances at the state RR museums of Pa., N.C., and California. (A former curator at one of the above told me one time that "it takes an act of God, co-signed by Allah, Buddha, Confucius, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster to get some things done here!").The chronic shortfall between public expectations and actual appropriated funding--not just for Steamtown or the National Park Service, but ALL government programs--has already been addressed elsewhere in this thread. Any further discussion devolves into unsavory political rants inappropriate for this forum. Let's just say that Americans have become addictd to spending "other people's money" and let it go at that.All of this is "the price you pay" for having the relative security of a government-run museum, one that is far less likely to make things "go away" or to shutter itself. On the one hand, we get exasperated at the perceived shortcomings of government-run museums; on the other hand, we can (and should) sleep a little better at night knowing that at least some railway preservation is far safer from the whims of NIMBYs, badly-executed estate planning, bankruptcy courts, and the like.
An informative-ish thread on 3713 at Railway Preservation News Interchange: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38239
I propose a new act of Congress! The Nationalization of Tourist Railroads in the United States!
Surely, Colorado Railroad Museum, Cumbries and Toltec Scenic, Durango Silverton and Virgina Truckee et al. could and would function better under the National Park Service. Possibly funds could be appropriated for a feasibility study as National Historic Sites, and then National Park Service could allocate funds to take over and then run these operations.
They could also then do Union Pacific "Heritage" and Norfolk and Western in Virginia who are incapable of doing with private sector funds, what our US government could accomplish with tax dollars through the NPS.
My favorate "rust bound iron horse" dream would be to pry New York Central 4-8-2 Mohawk NYC 3001 from the City of Elkhart, Indiana and let the National Park Service do justice by returning it to full operational service!
I forsee F. Nelson Blount's vision of future days of STEAM TRAIN GLORY!
A railroad museum has many more roles beyond the restoration of various locomotives to operating condition, which is often beyond the budgets of many museums. Some museums have bitten off more than they would chew, which leads to hulks left to rust in various degrees of partial restoration, deteriorating exhibits of other facets of railroading, a shortage of knowledgable docents, etc. Sometimes, a museum has to say no to an operating restoration in favor of a cosmetic restoration since that's all it can afford.
I would like to see NP 3617 restored to operating condition by the Lake Superior Railroad Museum, but not at the expense of letting something else deteriorate.
Dr DThe Bellows Falls, Vermont community has seen a major loss of its much cherished tourist economic engine, "Todays vacant homes and other economic hardships facing Bellows Falls did not exist in the Steamtown era..." Vermont Journal on the subject.
Correlation or relationship? I would wager the former. How many paper mills and other industries have shut down since the Steamtown was up there? I doubt Steamtown made much of a difference at all.
And if the NPS didn't take over the collection, most of that equipment would probably have been scrapped by now.
CSSHEGEWICH,
The Bellows Falls, Vermont community has seen a major loss of its much cherished tourist economic engine, "Todays vacant homes and other economic hardships facing Bellows Falls did not exist in the Steamtown era..." Vermont Journal on the subject.
Cleaning the air in Vermont of the smoking locomotives could hardly be said to be a enviornmental accomplishment just to see said smoking locomotives moved to Scranton PA, and now apparently under the protection of the National Park Service.
Same smoke different location!
Plus a new burden on US taxpayers, a new department and responsibility for the Federal Government, an out of context office of the National Park Service, a "put off" for the tourist riding public, the loss of private ownership of Steamtown USA, and the income needing citizens of Vermont be damned!
Guess I need a new definition of FUBAR.
To the intern(?): I was unaware that breathing clean air was an intrusion by government.
The beginning of Steamtown USA can be found in "Twilight of Steam" by Ron Ziel.
In 1962 the Governor and Council of New Hampshire approved $1 million to aid development of a New Hampshire owned steam railroad in Keene, NH. This was stopped by a following State of New Hampshire political administration.
Enter millionare F. Nelson Blount with deep pockets to pick up the mission of STEAM TRAIN GLORY. Blount began purchasing retired locomotives which were then put on display at his own private two-foot gauge "Edaville Railroad" at South Carver, Massachusetts.
These new steam locomotive acquisitions were stored at the Boston & Maine roundhouse in North Walpole, New Hampshire. Blount went on to plan an elaborate facility similar to the "Age Of Steam Roundhouse" in Sugarcreek, Ohio. Designed by Morehouse & Chesley Architects and Wright & Pierce Engineers, this facility included a large roundhouse, turntable, museum, station, coal tipple, and water tank.
Local efforts were put forth by the Keene, New Hampshire Chambrer of Commerce, to prevent Blount from moving his projected Steamtown, USA out of New Hampshire owing to the state funding loss and the New Hampshire political situation.
Blount gathered locomotives from the United States and Canada.
Reading RR was to send 4-8-4 northern RR 2124, Union Pacific sent Big Boy UP 4012, Pennsylvania RR was to send four locomotives from Northumberland PA. Canadian Pacific sent CP 2929 a 4-4-4 four more CP steamers were to be acquired. Nickel Plate Berkshire NKP 759 class of Lima 1944 was to go to the "greatest steam railroading center in North America" which eventually came to be built as Steamtown USA in Bellows Falls, Vermont.
In 1967 F. Nelson Blount died in a tragic airplane accident, and the non profit Steamtown Foundation took over the running of Steamtown, VT. By the 1980s Vermont clean air activists drove forward restrictions on the operations of Steamtown and a move was made to Steamtown, Scranton, PA.
Within two years Steamtown, PA was facing bankrupsy and was selling off parts of the F. Nelson Blount locomotive collection. Riders who had come to excursion through picturesque farmlands of Bellows Falls, Vermont, were not drawn to the scenic suburban junkyards of Scranton, PA., in which Ralph Nader famous US goverment safety crusader called Scranton, PA and its junkyards the "Eighth Wonder of the World!"
In 1986 Pennsylvania Congressman Joseph M. McDade moved the United States Congress to approve $8 million for a "study of the collection" and a move was made to establish Steamtown as a National Historic Site. The National Park Service conducted a "historical research" of the remainder of the F. Nelson Blount locomotive collection. In 1995 the National Park Service acquired the Steamtown site and locomotive collection through a $66 million allocation.
The National Park Service then removed and sold several locomotives in the collection as not in the interest of United States history - mostly Canadian steam - the remainder of the F. Nelson Blount collection is on display at Steamtown, Scranton, PA today.
One wonders if the same "das ist furchtbar" - government clean air activists that drove Steamtown from Vermont will feel as just a cause persuing clean air activism with the National Park Service at Steamtown in Scranton, PA?
Steam1800'sSteamtown should have been put in the private sector and government should have stayed out of it.
Didn't Steamtown start out in the private sector? didn't seem to work so well.
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