It is truly disgraceful that these really beautiful locomotives are not being put back into service. Oh, I realize that this cost a fortune and let's be practical here for a moment. Most museums make a mere pittance to try and preserve these fine pieces of American history. After my ride on the Rio Grande Toltec excursion some years back, I got bit by the steam bug big time. I mean, that K27 ( my favorite steam engine), just looked beyond cool coming through the valley with snow capped mountains. They put allot of money into that operation. Not sure what their operating budget is, but it has to be pretty large. Especially to maintain all those beautiful locomotives and passenger cars. So, as far as steam town is concerned, all I can think of is they simply do not have the revenue or funds to get these locomotives in service. Everyone here knows that steam Era locomotives require huge amounts of time for repairs and basic maintenance. The men and women, who volunteer, do so because of the love of steam. I haven't been to steam town in a long time now. Like to get up there and see what goes.......literally!
timberlane1Thanks for the mention of the CNJ 113. I've been helping out for 10 years. Lots of hard work and a really great pattern maker on our team. And, we did it all outside under no more than tarps.
Proud to mention it, you gents deserve all the credit you can get! I haven't seen the engine in operation yet but I'm looking forward to it one day.
If there's such a thing as "Steam Sainthood" you CNJ 113 guys surely qualify!
Dr D We need a rail advociate like Ross Rowland to relate effectively with corporate rail America. This was his strength and why he ran so many miles of excursions with his locmotives and as the engineer no less! Today you can't get berkshire 2-8-4 NKP 765 on the railroad because there is no one who can negotiate this type of relationship with corporate America like Ross Rowland did - all across the nation! These skills are what are missing today. ...
We need a rail advociate like Ross Rowland to relate effectively with corporate rail America. This was his strength and why he ran so many miles of excursions with his locmotives and as the engineer no less!
Today you can't get berkshire 2-8-4 NKP 765 on the railroad because there is no one who can negotiate this type of relationship with corporate America like Ross Rowland did - all across the nation! These skills are what are missing today.
...
NKP 765 just visited Steamtown, and ran over various mainlines to get there. I have seen 765 in Michigan last year. I rode SP 4449 over BNSF 4 years ago. The MILW 261 has run mainline excursions lately. Obviously there are steam people who can negotiate with the railroads for running rights.
At the risk of being branded as a heretic by the intern and others, I will state that I have little to no interest in steam, and I have been a rail enthusiast since prior to July 1965, when I bought my first issue of TRAINS. My interest in railroading has never been affected by the presence or absence of steam, passenger trains, first-generation diesels, etc. My interest will continue and finds the changes and challenges of modern railroading in the 21st century just as interesting as when I was first drawn to trackside.
The issue that needs to be considered is how much long-term interest in railroading is generated in the non-enthusiast community by the operation of steam excursions. I would opine that the UP and NS Heritage Fleets generate a lot more interest since they are visible every day and they cost a lot less. We all have to remember that railroads are, first and foremost, business organizations, and when they feel that steam excursions are more of an expense than they are worth, the excursions will come to an end.
The ACE3000 generated some engineering studies (a plus) but not much else. There appears to have been more interest for it in the enthusiast community than in the various rail-related businesses. When the other backers lost interest, the project died.
Zug's comment on the disconnect between the romance and realities of railroading is more on the mark than many of us will admit.
Dr DRoss knew how to win over the guys who "know how to run the railroad!" Its why there are no major steam train excursions today.
NS ran some steam excursions the past few years. Or don't those count? The C&O 614 hasn't turned a wheel in active service in years. So better find a new model to promote.
But you are forgetting the liability issues (and costs). And while it would be nice to see steam engines running the mainlines - what's in it for the owners of those mainlines? And dare I say it: is the interest in mainline steam even there for the public anymore?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann,
Come away from your materialism of engines and equipment and realize without a "working relationship" with corporate America and with FRA - what good is it - this was Ross! - this is what he had in spades! He knew how to talk to those corporate people because he was one of them.
Ross Rowland in his corporate steam train running negotiationas was the absolute anthisis of Richard Jensen - who succeded mostly in getting everybody in corporate America "pissed off" and in getting his own Chicago Burlington And Quincy 4-8-4 northern CB&Q 5632 cut up for scrap because of his impossible ways.
Plant, machinery, engines - don't mean a thing if you don't have someone to negotiate in everyones best interest - Ross knew how to bring the steam train loving American out everyone.
Ross knew how to win over the guys who "know how to run the railroad!" Its why there are no major steam train excursions today.
Doc
And yet Steamtown is still here, while Ross hasn't really done much in the last bunch of years. So who should be like who again? Yes, ross has done great things in the past, but so have a lot of other people. Unfortunately the fact taht he hasn't been able to run big steam in ages shows how difficult the task is. Why you think it should be easy for Steamtown (gov't or no gov't) is beyond me.
And you will always have people that bash gov't no matter what. But yet we could sit here and list dozens of private railroad museums/scenic lines that have failed in the past 30 years while Steamtown keeps plugging away. They do a hell of a lot better than most.
The disconnect between the realities of railroading and the romanticism of it will always lead to problems with preservation and public perception/support.
ROBERT WILLISON,
Your comments on Ross Rowland beg one aspect of reality that you are not considering.
In the 1980's, when I would go and work on Pere Marquette 1225 berkshire 2-8-4 at the Michigan State University campus with the other guys who were beginning the restoration of this engine - one bold fact came clear to me.
We would spend the weekend - and great part of our youth - "busting our ass" working on steam. Dressed in overalls it was a highly athletic work. The steam locomotive parts were large the engine was big. The tools were big and the problems were big. Two or three men to lift some things and a crane helped when more "hump" was needed. We used hydraulic rams for things like removing the drawbar pins. The large acetylene torch burned its flame at 6000 degrees F was very essential too for heating cutting and dealing with rusted bolts and broken studs for removal etc.
So at the end of the day - and with a smile on our faces - we would pack up the tool car and go home or to the motel to work tomorrow. We personally took away with us THE DREAM OF STEAM RAILROADING in our hearts in the form of memories and experiences. And also we took the JOY that our daily work not just a coat of paint on some park locomotive.
As THE MICHIGAN STATE TRUST FOR RAILWAY PRESEVATION members we trusted in each other and also we trusted in the support of many professional railroaders working and retired - of whom we were constantly trying to ingratiate ourselves.
BUT IN THE END - each of us knew that we would take away nothing! Nothing personal would go home with us! - nor did we want it to!
------------------------------
- This is my point which I will illustrate here -
If I built and restored an antique car - in the end it would be mine. If I built and raced a drag car at the dragstrip - the trophy would be mine and the car also! If I rebuilt an antique mahogany speed boat- the joy of the woodworking and the boat would be mine - all 32 gistening feet of it!
- And I have done all these things -
But the working on railroad equipment - very few of us can keep it or would want to. It is difficult to make a mark on railroading because of the great expense and responsibility - the "venue" is just too large.
Now you have "short changed" a great American like Ross Rowland. This man has lived a larger than life story in the work he has done with American steam locomotives. And he unlike most of us he still has one of those great locomotives - C&O 614 northern 4-8-4 to prove it. But time and tide take their toll - steam locomotives are a high expense and fragile creation - their glory is always fleeting.
- And for that matter the glory of this world is always fleeting.
F. Nelson Blount made a great effort at changing America and preserving the love of steam railroading - his work while not as grand in many respects and on the scale as Ross Rowland's - still remains for us a wonderful collection of steam locomotives which he was able to get hold of "while they were available to be saved."
Both men have made a mark on American railroading history which few of us could ever accomplish.
And Ross is still here to guide and to chide us for the waste and incompetence which he has rightly perceived at the STEAMTOWN USA government run National Park. Does the government exist to serve us or to just serve itself? - STEAMTOWN USA has got "the cart before the horse" like many museums it is a private place and collection for the purpose of itself - to keep and earn salaries for those who work there. I would think twice before criticizing a man of the character of Ross Rowland and what he has to say about STEAMTOWN USA.
Ross's goal was not a tourist railroad but "an experience with steam" for the American people - and he engaged professional railroad corporations like no other advocate. With ACE 3000 he also made a serious attempt, and almost accomplished it, in the reviving of steam power as modern industrial rail power.
As far as boiler papers on the 4-6-4T from 1962 being relevant today, certainly they wouldn't. Steamtown could have gotten the engine properly "papered" back then if they did a tear-down, re-build (as needed) and then a Federal inspector's OK. At the time it wasn't worth it, they had plenty of other steam engines to choose from.
A restoration now would have the advantage of starting from scratch. The engine would be up to snuff and properly papered, just like a lot of recent restorations.
I think Dr. D kind of looked askance at putting CNJ markings on it. My attitude is "So what?" In fact. it was the CNR 4-6-4T's and their good performance. that gave the CNJ the idea of getting some of their own. Rivet counters (don't take offense anyone!) may not like it but the visiting public isn't going to care.
Oh, and take it easy on Dr. D everyone, I like his passion. I'm sure if he had the scratch he'd fund some pretty spectacular steam restorations, but I suspect like the rest of us he's got the typical workin' stiffs wallet.
"What's that?" you say? The typical workin' stiffs wallet has a drivers license, lots of photos of family and friends, and no money!
Its hard to compare what Ross Roland and his staffers have done to NPS and steam town. While Mr Roland has done a lot for rail community, none of it has been very substantiable. His work on the bi centennial train in 1976 was commendable. But tons of money was raised, spent including on his staffers, equipment. But at the end of the day, the only thing that remained was the memory. The equipment split up, sold or returned to their owner's. Nothing to show for there efforts. A few locomotives was restored over the years by his organization but none are operational today. Money rasied , spent but nothing sustainable. I am not belittling his efforts but I am not sure he is the last word on how to historical preservation is carried out.
Look at the western Maryland senic rail road. This group has not only put one steamer back into operation, but had managed to restore a second as well. This is a far better model for historic railroad preservation and operations.
You need deep pockets, a great business model and dedication to make this happen. Its hard and an expensive propistion.
CSSHEGEWISCH,
I will defer any personal comments to, and about YOU, as a response to your obviously "politically correct" insinuation that - WHAT IF - "free thinking" is not allowed on this site.
I will point out a comment Ross Rowland made about STEAMTOWN USA on September 19th 2015 - of this year.
-------------------------
Ross Rowland you will remember was a successful "commodities futures broker" on Wall Street, who used his financial success to involve himself in the restoration of some of the great steam locomotive projects of the last half of the Twentieth Century. To his credit are the operation of Reading Northern 4-8-4 RR 2101 for the American Freedom Train during the nations bi-centenial event in 1976. Following the damage to this locomotive in a roundhouse fire he was given Chesapeake and Ohio northern CO 614 which ran the Chessie steam excursions on the CSX railroad. Following this, he attempted the revival of steam power as a modern form of rail transportation with the still born ACE 3000 project. I met Ross when I was involved in the restoration of Pere Marquette 1225 berkshire 2-8-4 and I was privlidged to run CO 614 with Ross in the cab on one of the Chessie steam specials.
-----------------------------
That STEAMTOWN is a federally funded part of the National Park Service, and was created to be a federal "JOB CORPS" project for economiclly failing Scranton, PA is obvious. And that the many millions of dollars spent by the Federal Government through the National Parks Service have provided JOBS for the National Park Service Employees of STEAMTOWN USA and HAVE NOT provided the general public with any usable historic railroad steam locomotive restoration! Ross's text is as follows,
---------------------------
"Remember folks that Steamtown was created by Cong. Joe McDade as a jobs generator for the depressed Scranton area. 'Steam Trains" just happened to be the convenienly available vehicle.
As a jobs corps, it has been a big success creating dozens of high paying federally funded jobs in a very sad economically depressed area. As a steam locomotive repair restoration facility it has been an abject failure when you consider that since its inception over $ 200 MM ( yes, that $ 200 million taxpayer dollars) have been spent and not a SINGLE locomotive has been restored to service.
Always remember its a Federal Gov't. operation. The employees get payed the same whether there's zero visitors ( which is often the case in the winter off-season) or a full house. In fairness to the current work force only a tiny fraction of their annual $ 6 MM taxpayer funded budget goes to restoration/maintaince...the majority goes to G&A.
The chances of S'town restoring the 759 (or any other engine) are less than zero.
Sad but true.
Ross Rowland"
-----------------------
CSSHEGEWISCH - my "WHAT IF" post stands as I wrote it! - At least its a Donald TrumP dream about how great America could be! If you want to stick your head in the "sand dome," go ahead! I would rather complain about us Americans taking back our Steam Locomotive Heritage! It's better than to watch it go "down the tubes" in priceless locomotives lost to useless rust? This is unexcusable for the National Park Service with its PUBLIC CHARGE, and national funding source, to allow the F. Nelson Blount collection to deteriorate!
Yes, our tax dollars are at work doing nothing but funding a lot of bureaucrat salaries! - and I will be damned if I will contribute to funding such a Federal Government "boondoggle" as STEAMTOWN USA!
Trains Magazine should get its head out of the "sand dome" too and do some serious editorializing about this national disgrace as STEAMTOWN USA is!
It's right there with the disfunctional National New York Central Railroad Museum - you hear that Mayor Dick Moore - you cannot keep Mohawk NYC 3001 as a "kiddie park attraction" forever! We rail loving Americans are coming for it! - to run on the high iron again!
WHAT IF - The intern was willing to put his money where his mouth is and fund these projects out of his pockets. He's been pretty good at suggesting how other people need to spend their money.
One wonders how many millions of passengers the six H-1 units of the Central Railroad of New Jersey brought to and from work in The City during their 30+ years of service. Even today the greatest number of Americans who have experience with trains are commuters.
A few thoughts. While I agree the CPR 4-4-4 may not be particularly relevant down in the USA it does provide an example of stream-styling. While various US roads had their own variations on the theme, very few, if any, have survived. The major Canadian museum, Exporail near Montreal, already has a Jubilee and doesn't need a duplicate. Resources are already stretched thinly there, as at every rail museum on this continent, including Canada. Most have a back lot of decaying derelicts. As more than one person has commented, you can't save everything and sometimes the decisions are hard.
The lack of paperwork on the Steamtown 4-6-4T may have been a problem at the time it was forced out of service at Bellows Falls, probably related to how much time was left on its boiler after the last overhaul by CNR. I can't imagine that paperwork would be relevant today, something over a half century later. Any return to operation would require complete inspection and overhaul of the boiler (and everything else). Do you really think the two sister 4-6-4T's in Canada would need any less. Their bi-directional capacity does make them more suitable than a tender engine for many tourist operations though, and the limited water capacity is not necessarily a problem.
John
Got a look at those photos of the Jubilee and the 2-8-2.
Yikes.
Double yikes!
Look, if I had anything to say about it I'd contact some Canadian rail museums and say "Look, we've got two of your locomotives here. We can't take care of them. Would you folks like 'em? Just come and get 'em and they're yours."
Just trying to be fair to the engines. They're not American, it's no loss if they're sent home to a good home. Anything than have them waste away.
Oh, and I finally saw that shot of the 4-6-4T pulling a commuter run. THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!
If STEAMTOWN USA wanted to get on the map with a Donld TrumP media type drama moment - as an absolutle historic event - I am talking about a media event that would live large in the nations history! - something truely earthshattering - of historical importance - to draw attention from everywhere.
It would not be about some CN 4-6-4T - tank engine - that even if it could masqurade as a long lost Central of New Jersey locomotive - which it is not! - would be celebrating Canadian History - go figure!
A true NATIONAL PARK SERVICE EVENT would be to restore and run one of utterly famous surviving Pennsylvania K4 Pacific locomotives PRR 1361 or PRR 3750.
Or similar event on the human interest level of the restoration of Union Pacific Big Boy 4-8-8-4 UP 4014. Such as New York Central Mohawk 4-8-2 NYC 3001 another media star - and or - Southern Railroad Ps-4 Pacific 4-6-2 SR 1401.
It seems reasonable, that the Smithsonian Institute would consider loaning this famous locomotive for operation to the National Park Service STEAMTOWN site and placing a similarly famous steamer such as the Pennsy K4 - or Boston And Maine 4-6-2 on display in the Smithsonian Institute.
IF - Steamtown was ever such a credible player in steam locomotive operation and restoration business - on the order of Strasburg RR - the go to guys - whose work would qualify for the Smithsonian all by itself.
IF - there was a really "cracker jack" steam program in Scranton to generate a "WHAT IF" of that national historic importance!
- I mean - LET'S THINK LARGE HERE!
WHAT IF - Steamtown were to LIVE UP TO its Federal Government heritage - and do the Pennsy T1 reproduction DUPLEX DRIVE project.
WHAT IF - THE FEDS who create the best US Naval aircraft carriers - nuclear submarines - fastest fighter attack jet planes - most nuclear weapons - best spy satelites - ?
WHAT IF - they took interest in a busted up steam engine?
WHAT IF - National Park Service whose job it is to consider these things - is just not working hard enough with our national prodigy STEAMTOWN USA! - whom they are making a step child! - I mean look at the British - who had some version of the historic Flying Scottsman steamed up for Queen Elizabeth II's sixty three year historic moment a few weeks ago - come on National Park Service you are cheating all America by waisting the opportunity here for our American steam railroad heritage. If you can't run STEAMTOWN USA - get out - and turn it over to Strasburg RR and let them run it for you!
WHAT IF? - just THINKIN LARGE HERE!
The discussion thread on Steamtown's engines at Railway Preservation news is fascinating indeed and I strongly recommend it for some of the real insight I was asking for long ago at the begining of this thread. THANKS for the link.
Details emerge on the actual status of the #759 after its golden age on the Iron Horse Rambles, and on other projects/engines at Steamtown. Very interesting stuff and not too heavy on gratuitous shots at the NPS either.
Carl Fowler
Thanks. Glad it works.
I scrambled over the ruins to the "Jubilee" and the rust is deep and well-progressed, but absolutely engines as far gone have lived again. The ruined CNR 2-8-2 #3377, which lies behind the CPR engine, has probably been mined for the (until recently operable) similar #3254.
I would be very open to seeing the #759 run again. One of my most unforgetable memories was a two-day excursion behind her over Memorial Day weekend in 1970. The first day was Hoboken-Binghamton over the ex-Erie Mainline along the Delware River, over Gulf Summit and the Starucca Viaduct. The return was on the former Lackawanna thru Scranton and of course over the now lifted Lackawanna Cut-Off across western new Jersey. The #759 put on an incredible show of both power, and speed.
But given the operable status of sister NKP Berkshire #765 I think in the short-term the best hope at Steamtown is to finish the 20 year + effort to rebuild former B&M Pacific #3713. My trip to Scranton was supposed to have been to help support that effort.
The (sadly) cancelled NKP/NS #765 excursions on September 12 and 13 were both to celebrate the 100th birthday of the Nicholson (and Martin's Creek) Viaduct and to provide support through any profits for the "3713 project. When the $100,000,000 insurance demand by the CPR (which sadly still owned the ex-DL&W/D&H line for another 7 days after this weekend) torpedoed these trips I went anyway to see how things were going at Steamtown.
A review of my photos through the link above will speak for itself and I'll get more up on some new posts soon.
The link worked for me.
Bigger bucket cases have come back than the Jubillee, which isn't really much of a "bucket case" Looks to only need some paint, TLC, and Side rods.
I think that the 4-4-4 would make a nifty little project, if only cosmetic.
For those interested, RYPN is having a discussion similar to this, on NKP 759 and what locomotives would be good for excursions at Steamtown.
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30001&sid=e57a6f49abf32a7d043a41f46a15bdbc
-S. Connor
I think I figured out the mysteries of posting a photo here. Perhaps another reader can confirm if this link takes you to the shot I described earlier showing the current status of the CPR "Jubilee" at Steamtown? Does this work? The FAQs for this site say to post a link to Photobucket, or something similar--so here goes.
http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/Carl_Fowler/media/Scranton%20and%20Steamtown/IMG_5023_zpsifyjrv22.jpg.html?sort=3&o=28
Sorry, all. On my browser the link brings up a picture of a prim and proper C.R.R. of N.J. 4-6-4T pulling a combine and a commuter coach.
Jeez, wouldn't ya know it? Even Steamtown's website is bad-ordered!
Just Google "Images For 4-6-4T Locomotives" to see a "catalog," it'll tide you over.
kgbw49 Here is what Mr. Firelock76 is talking about. A great suggestion! http://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/steamtown/shs3a4.jpg
Here is what Mr. Firelock76 is talking about. A great suggestion!
http://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/steamtown/shs3a4.jpg
NPSA problem with the website—not with your computer or Internet connection—has occurred. We apologize for the inconvenience. In the meantime, other NPS.gov content may be working well.
NPS must have put the Steamtown people to work - the link works today.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I agree that the CN Hudson tank would be a fine engine for the short yard rides and could also probably operate efficiently on the occasional runs up the former D&H from Scranton to Carbondale, which had real commuter trains into the 1950s.
Glad for your input Carl. "Yard Shuttles" and runs about town were exactly what I had in mind for the 4-6-4T, after all commuter runs (which is what the above would amount to) is exactly what those units were made for. They'd be enough to give the Steamtown visitor who doesn't want or have the time for an all-day or half-day run a good taste of the steam experience. Certainly no long uphill slogs, the 4-6-4T's weren't made for that.
Of course there's no reason the 0-6-0 couldn't be used for the quick runs. My idea was as the 4-6-4T has a very close resemblance to the American versions as used by the CNJ and Boston and Albany it'd be a natural fit with Steamtowns CNJ rolling stock.
David, I certainly don't know anyone at Steamtown, but maybe someone who does and is a regular visitor to this Forum does and could put the word in their ear.
Can someone with a Pennsylvania address write both Steamtown and the National Park Service Hq. in Washington suggesting the swap (Quebec 4-6-4T for the 4-4-4 Jubilee)? Maybe there are already looking into it.
The California and Pennsylvania museums seem well-run. Steamtown, I am glad they do as well as they do.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.