Unfortuantely that "active" part has destroyed her bearings. Decades of rolling untold miles 15 feet back and forth, without lubrication or servicing, have worn many of her bearings "egg-shapped" from what I've heard.
But that still doesn't take away from the fact that she still wears her original paint! What other engine can say that?
-S. Connor
I've seen it Doctor D. and it's stunning. Too bad it's entombed in the Franklin Institute never to run on the mainline again.
Oh well, beats a scrap yard.
By the way, for a really good look at multicylinder steam, up close and personal, there's a video out filmed in Europe called "The Steam Locomotive- Technology and Practice." It'll take you right under the locomotive for an up-close look that can't be beat.
A two-disc set for $39.95, and I can't recommend it enough.
Order from Country Trains, PO Box 250, Ellerslie MD 21529-0250
e-mail ct@hereintown.net
Bought mine at a train show in January and have lost track of how many times I've watched it.
S. Connor,
The Baldwin 60000 is a pretty special locomotive. She was a "one off" construction by Baldwin built as a "demonstrator model" for new locomotive sales. Incorporated in her design were many new and unique features - 60000 had a high pressure boiler with water tube firebox similar to that used in marine construction, Baldwin 60000 was a compound three cylinder design which used the high pressure steam in the center cylinder and exhausted this into the two outer cylinders effectively using the steam twice and incuring economies in this performance.
After touring the nation as a demonstrator - she was converted from coal to oil by western railroads and then back to coal before returning east. Baldwin 60000 was un-saleable in that no American railroad would take on ownership of this one off designed roundhouse queen. Because it was sure to be a maintaince headache.
So It remains today - A BRAND NEW 1926 original Baldwin 4-10-2 steam locomotive - never used up, never rebuild always kept indoors - never repainted and in completely original condition BRAND NEW! Not only that it has spent its entire life moving slowly as an active museum exhibit on one piece of track in the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia PA! Boiler cold fire extinuished for its entire service career! Go Figure that one!
If you get a chance go see the last original new unused American steam locomotive from 1926! I think its really a BACK TO THE FUTURE three cylinder time machine!
Doc
timz All of them-- and just about all the unsurviving ones too. Mr Meislahn decided the A&S engine's center cyl was tilted 6 degrees; the SP 4-10-2s were 9.5 deg, and as I recall the 4-12-2s were too.
All of them-- and just about all the unsurviving ones too. Mr Meislahn decided the A&S engine's center cyl was tilted 6 degrees; the SP 4-10-2s were 9.5 deg, and as I recall the 4-12-2s were too.
I believe that the UP 9000 and SP 4-10-2 needed that higher tilt angle because the center cylinder was connected to an axle much closer to the front of the engine (The second anxle, if I recall correctly).
Also, if I may ask, where did you find the tilt angle for the A&S #12? I have copies of all archived paperwork for her from MOT and in all of that (and the internet) have not seen a measurement on the tilt of the center cylinder.
It's also worth mentioning that most survivors of the N.American 3-cylinders use the Gresley valve gear for the inside cylinder (Baldwin 60000 does not). And according to this information from rgusrail.com, its no wonder that all equiped with gresely are tilted.
Another feature of the Gresley design was the general need to angle the third cylinder so that the inner main rod would clear the first driver axle. On #9000, the incline was 9½°.
All for now,
PS- Not all 3 cylinders used gresely valve gear. Gresely gear wore quickly and was not very suitable for high speeds. Many 3 cylinders (If not simplified to 2 cylinder operation) were rebuilt with Walshearts valve gear on the center cylinder, or had the gresely rebuilt with roller bearings. Some of the UP 9000's had this done to them, but none survived save the 9000, which was not altered.
Now I believe the only 3 cylinder with "speacial" (Not gresely) valve gear for the 3rd cylinder is Baldwin 60000. Not sure what valve gear is used on that, though.
S. Connorhow many of the surviving N.American 3 cylinders have the tilted center cylinder?
S. ConnorThe whole cylinder is tilted about 15 degrees or so backwards, so that the rear end is lowered.
You will want to explain this differently to avoid confusion. The cylinder is almost surely not tilted 'down' at the back, it is tilted up at the front; there is a very important difference. Think of the whole shebang - cylinder, piston-rod, crosshead, and guide, and rod alignment - being rotated upward around the axis of the cranked axle. The resulting rod angularity either side of dead center is equal, although the geometry as the axle moves up and down on the suspension is a bit different.
... tilting [the center cylinder] would produce a longer stroke for the shorter rod, which can be short because the cylinder has already taken the angle.
I am not sure I understand what this means.
The issue with rod angularity that midget is discussing isn't an offset angle of the rod relative to the cylinder axis, it's rod angularity in the IC engine context -- a shorter rod has its big end swing laterally further for a given stroke (which determines the crank throw) and there are thrust and inertia consequences from that. The relative 'shortness' of the rod is not changed by inclining the cylinder EXCEPT that it becomes possible, with the cylinder elevated and the intermediate axle(s) offset at center to clear, to run a longer rod to a crank on an axle further back.
tdmidget The cylinder does not appear to be inclined. This would cause even more clearance problems. The cylinder and crosshead are horizontal and the angle is taken by the connecting rod. The longer the piston rod the shorter and more angled the connecting rod will be. The center cylinder will have to have a shorter stroke and thus less power making it much less attractive.
The cylinder does not appear to be inclined. This would cause even more clearance problems. The cylinder and crosshead are horizontal and the angle is taken by the connecting rod. The longer the piston rod the shorter and more angled the connecting rod will be. The center cylinder will have to have a shorter stroke and thus less power making it much less attractive.
If you are talking about the photos I included above, I can tell you from being around that engine (The Alton and Southern #12) so much that it is inclined (Shocked me when I noticed, but it's true!). The whole cylinder is tilted about 15 degrees or so backwards, so that the rear end is lowered.
The center cylinder on the AS #12 is the same size as those around it, and tilting it would produce a longer stroke for the shorter rod, which can be short because the cylinder has already taken the angle.
tdmidgetThe longer the piston rod the shorter and more angled the connecting rod will be. The center cylinder will have to have a shorter stroke and thus less power making it much less attractive.
I am sure the Alco. designers ran into the same issues, and came up with the solution: Tilt it!
I hope my above explanation makes sense, it is hard to describe complex systems over text.
Also, how many of the surviving N.American 3 cylinders have the tilted center cylinder? I know that at least one other, the UP 9000 has it's center cylinder tilted.
Loves the 3-cylinder "oddballs",
tdmidgetThe cylinder does not appear to be inclined. This would cause even more clearance problems. The cylinder and crosshead are horizontal and the angle is taken by the connecting rod. The longer the piston rod the shorter and more angled the connecting rod will be. The center cylinder will have to have a shorter stroke and thus less power making it much less attractive.
I think the center cylinder on the Alton engine is angled, but it isn't by much. All three cylinders have the same dimensions (22x28) in all the references I have. Yes, rod angularity is a problem, and one (partial) solution is in the 'cranking' of axles (as mentioned) to clear the longer rod. If I recall correctly, in at least one overseas design the rod is curved to go around an axle, and a separate (also curved) piece is bolted on to keep the rod stiff.
Three cylinders makes reasonable sense in plaes like Britain, where the loading gauge and platform clearances greatly restrict outside cylinder dimensions (to say nothing of insulation thickness!). In the United States that was less of an issue. In my opinion the developments in lightweight rods and balancing during the 1930s made engines with inside cylinders and rods even more undesirable (and rebuilding existing three-cylinder locomotives to 2-cylinder locomotives more preferable).
Am I justified in thinking you are an MG fan?
ACYYes, all four of the locos I mentioned still have 3 cylinders. Was that in question?
No. I misunderstood what you were saying; I thought (for some reason) you were commenting on the fact that so many of the US three-cylinder locomotives were rebuilt to simple two-cylinder locomotives.
I thought the only practical three-cylinder compound built in all of modern United States practice was the Baldwin 60000. Almost everything compound that wasn't a cross-compound was four-cylinder, wasn't it? Vauclain, Vauclain balanced, Cole, de Glehn-du Bousquet, what am I missing? The D&H compounds were experimentals, and the Schmidt high-pressure engines apparently weren't successful in road service. I thought B&O kept their watertube boiler pressure limited to what was expandable in a simple engine - under about 350 psi.
Sorry about noting the wrong thing!
Wizlish:
Yes, all four of the locos I mentioned still have 3 cylinders. Was that in question?
Tom
ACY[The center cylinder] is angled in order to provide clearance.
Come to think of it-- a few US 4-cyl engines had the inside cyl horizontal even tho they drove the second driver axle. No idea if any 3-cyl engine anywhere was built like that.
ACYAll survivors in this country are simple engines, as far as I know.
All four of the locomotives you mentioned still have three cylinders.
In fairness, it should also be mentioned that geared locomotives could and did have three cylinders, crank set to give the same balanced 120-degree angle.
While we are on the subject of interesting 'chuffs', Baldwin 60000 was notable because one of the cylinders exhausted internally, making little if any greater noise than the cylinder exhausts on the 25 class condensing 4-8-4s in South Africa. So you had a highly interesting 'off-beat' audible sound, for all the world like the worst case of mistimed valves ever heard, even though the locomotive was apparently notable for smooth torque.
I'm surprised nobody commented on how a three-cylinder engine with the center cylinder elevated a few degrees is timed to give even power impulses...
The three cylinders are high on my list of unique designs that never took off over here in the US.
3-cylinder locos had a speacial exaust chuff as well, from the four chuffs per driver revolution on normal engines, 3 cylinders had six chuffs, making for some very interesting "stack talk"
While here in the US they never really took off, they became fairly common across Europe. Among some notable European 3 cylinders is the A4, thats right, the "Mallard" was 3 cylindered, along with her sisters who still operate today!
As a matter of fact, my favorite locomotive is a 3-cylinder: Alton and Southern #12
This is the 3rd cylinder, located under the smokebox, between the other two cylinders. (Alton and Southern #12)
In the foreground is the crank on Axle #3, the rod running between the frame goes to the center cylinder. You can also make out the "crooked" axle unerneath the rod. It was made this way to make room for the motion of the rod.
You can easily see where the center cylinder is here.
The center cylinder yielded more power in a smaller locomotive, the #12 (pictures above) is an 0-8-0, but still produced more than 60,000 lbs tractive effort! Thats more than some 4-8-2's and 4-6-4's of the time period!
Unfortuantely, the 3rd cylinder was difficult to service, and the costs related to maintenance outweight those saved by fuel economy. These engines became known as "Roundhouse Queens" as they sometimes spent longer under repair than in operation.
This is probably more than you wanted to know, but if you have more questions, ask away, somebody around here will know!
-S.Connor
The center cylinder is cranked to a driving axle, with the connection located between the frame members. It is angled in order to provide clearance. There were simple, as well as compound versions of this arrangement, but the compounds generally proved impractical in North American use. All survivors in this country are simple engines, as far as I know.
Surviving examples include Alton & Southern 0-8-0 no. 12 in Kirkwood, MO; Baldwin 4-10-2 no. 60,000 in Philadelphia; Southern Pacific 4-10-2 5021 in Pomona, CA; and Union Pacific 4-12-2 9000, also in Pomona.
Does anyone know what a three cylinder engine is?
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