I've been doing a LOT of research on restored and operating steam locomotives and passenger coaches in Great Britain. I have to say, I am amazed! The Brits seem to have a dedication to steam trains unlike anything I've ever imagined. According to the many YouTube videos I've watched, there are clearly HUNDREDS of restored, operating steam locos, along with vintage Pullman coaches, and other vintage cars. The locomotives are absolutely beautiful to see in their colorful "liveries" and ornate detail. All you train fans out there owe it to yourselves and check out these Youtube videos! I wish this interest existed in the US! Even the British Government funds a lot of this stuff! Remember, the Limeys invented the steam engine, and they're proud of it! Give 'em a look-see.....impressive!
Mike C.
While I love it, I can't help but wonder what could've been had that love also applied to Britain's maritime legacy.
They sadly don't have a strong record there for reasons unclear (You would think a country rich in history and with the storied past on the seas that this one has, that they'd lead the world in this area). At least their attention to preserving their aviation legacy is growing in recent decades after such losses like the de Havilland Hornet going extinct in earlier years at a time when preservation was on the rise elsewhere like America.
And it's not only steam. For a few years, preservation remained almost exclusively focused on Britian's steam era. But starting largely in the 1980s, that attention has only expanded. And they're attracting younger generations into their cause as well, which is key to the long-term viability of these artifacts and is something groups on the other side of the pond often only wish they could do.
If I remember British groups in their local communities took over abandon branch line railroads and re established them as historic steam operations with passenger service as the focus.
It is almost if British railroads were established around passenger service as a community offering when they were built. When this went away the community was more than happy to have all this abandon railroad property put back to use and preserved and they did it by keeping with the steam trains.
No such British interest as pulling everything down for scrap value then doing this govermental "green" thing by turning it all into hiking trails as in America.
America has this heavy focus on fright railroading because the nation was built by the railroads - they hauled the very structure of building America - and if small branch lines now survive it is because of this heavy haulage mentality as freight only railroads. Owosso, MI, Durango, CO, East Broad Top PA seem exceptions.
Britian is such a small country, and was so well developed as a nation before the age of steam, that it almost acquired a "garden state mentality." And I don't mean New Jersey! Unlike America, Britian seems to feel about its nation that it is a "home" and the nation is more about a "home for its English people" that an industrial setting for "business and industry." American President Johnson called America "The Great Society," I think he was wrong, America is about all about business! - supporting business, and remember President Calvin Coolidge who said, the "business of America is business!
Last time I flew into Heathrow, I was shocked to note that from the air, that I could see the Atlantic Ocean and the North Sea and the English Channel. It occured to me that Britian is physically about the size of one American state! Such a small land with such a big impact on the world - and such a long, long, long, history.
I also wonder if the British have to deal with anything so encumbering as American Federal Bureaucracy? Do they have anyting resembling an ICC or an FRA to contend with in railroad operations?
America is a big vast wild nation with the "wilderness" just receding out of sight and immediate experience. Come to think of it Australia and South Africa are kind of wild and wooly like this. England is about etique, maners, society and social stratification! They also have a queen and the people are "subjects" not "citizens." We in America take for granted our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Each American citizen has the civil rights of the English noble class. When you step out of the USA you don't realize what freedoms vanish - especially for women! In a lot of places outside of America a woman cannot properly go, or transact business, without being escorted by a man.
For a thousand years, since the Norman Invasion of England, my own family was of the Scottish noble class. Noble families have legal titles to their family coat of arms and "may bear arms" in England. You can even own a modern army tank and drive it on the public streets in England - as was done recently on TV. The common English "subject" can have but a pocket knife! The entire nation is under video surveillance cameras and the feudal system is really just below the surface. If your not English you don't see it!
Doc
Having worked in the British rail industry for several years try FRA and ICC/STB squared if not cubed. In one study we did Network Rail's track maintenance costs were 4 to 5 times greater than North American costs. So more urbinization, tighter clearances, tighter safety rules, I'll give them double, but 4 to 5 times?
When you say no British interest in pulling everything down perhaps you need to review the Beeching effort.
They are a debating society, talk talk talk, the Nike JUST DO IT, doesn't work. But I'll give credit where credit is due. Once they make up their mind things happen albeit slowly by our standards. Witness HS1, Cross Rail, Themslink etc.
But at the same time witness the installation of the new junction on the DLR at Canning Town, only a couple of turnouts, took a week compared to the installation of the new diamonds and interlocking in Chicargo at Ash Street over a weekend.
But the real joke is Network Rail's creation on a North American consulting division to sell their experience here while the press in the UK questions their ability to manage their own assets.
Just for fun get an e-subscription to Modern Railways and Read Roger Ford's "Informed Sources".
From an artistic standpoint British steam and passenger rolling stock is as good as it gets. Elegant flowing lines and overall very balanced designs. German locomotives, in my humble opinion, are a close second, but I may be a little biased.
As I've mentioned in other threads about the railways of Britain, I cannot praise them enough! As far as getting young people involved, one of the editors of "the Railway" magazine is 24 years old. One of the directors of the National Railway Museum at York is less than ten! True!
One thing that amazes me is how British steam locomotive practice, unlike the Americans, Germans, Canadians, French manages to hide the "guts" of a locomotive. Where's the air tank? the generator, etc. etc. They had a strong aesthetic sense, greater than anyone else. I was once at the museum at York, out in the yard. The "Union of South Africa" was cooling down after a run. A man was on a ladder waxing the sides of it, using Simoniz in the little yellow can like I use on my cars. What a place!
I'm going back there in two weeks and plan to breathe a lot of coal smoke! And drink cask-conditoned real ale. Boys, Britain is the place! If you've never been, just go! Vintage aircraft, steam powered boats, trucks, tractors, They're all there.
Leo_AmesThey sadly don't have a strong record there for reasons unclear (You would think a country rich in history and with the storied past on the seas that this one has, that they'd lead the world in this area).
And the Cutty Sark: http://grimshaw-architects.com/project/the-cutty-sark-conservation-project/
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Actually, the Brits have done pretty well in maritime history preservation. In addition to HMS Victory and Cutty Sark there's HMS Belfast, HMS Trincomalee, the Britannia, the Nomadic (OK, that one's in Belfast), HMS Warrior, and there's a few others that slip my mind at the present. I believe Robert Falcon Scott's ship (don't remember the name) is on display in London. Expensive things ships, takes a lot to preserve one.
As far as ships from the days of sail which Leo may have had in mind, remember ships like Victory and our own Constitution were NEVER expected to last this long. Those two are anomalys. In the old days if you got 15 to 20 years out of a wooden ship you were doing pretty good. If the ship was exceptionally well built or an exceptionally good sailer they'd try to keep it alive as long as possible. The others were broken up with no thought as to preservation.
An aside, one of the reasons King George didn't want to let those rambunctious 13 colonies go were all those thousands of acres of good shipbuilding timber in North America. Shipbuilding timber was as important a resource to a world power in the 18th Century as oil is today, especially when a maritime power like Great Britain had to constantly renew the fleet.
The Brits have done pretty well with maritime preservation, IMHO.
Firelock76 were all those thousands of acres of good shipbuilding timber in North America.
BigJim Firelock76 were all those thousands of acres of good shipbuilding timber in North America. Live Oak
Live Oak
And they found out just how good live oak was when those British cannonballs bounced off it!
I wish I could go! Just can't afford it, plus, I have two pooches that require my CONSTANT attention......spoiled mutts!
BigJim Leo_Ames They sadly don't have a strong record there for reasons unclear (You would think a country rich in history and with the storied past on the seas that this one has, that they'd lead the world in this area). At least they do have the HMS Victory: http://www.hms-victory.com/
Leo_Ames They sadly don't have a strong record there for reasons unclear (You would think a country rich in history and with the storied past on the seas that this one has, that they'd lead the world in this area).
At least they do have the HMS Victory: http://www.hms-victory.com/
Yes, but the representation of it isn't at the level that seems commensurate with the importance that the seas have held for Britain over the centuries.
No trans-Atlantic liner from the glory days of 20th century passenger travel, for instance of one of the huge holes. No Dreadnought is another notable example, despite the surviving King George V ships and the last battleship launched anywhere in the World, HMS Vanguard, all surviving until 1960 or so, long after WWII ended and normalcy had returned.
But they certainly have some treasures as Firelock said, such as the light cruiser HMS Caroline for a notable ship that he didn't mention. She's the last survivor of the battle of Jutland.
And things still haven't changed much as I see it, such as turning their back on the opportunity to preserve a 1940s era British carrier in recent years (Nearly 10 opportunities have slipped by since the late 1970s, including the last one that saw WWII service going last year in India when she failed as a museum ship there and the UK didn't step in to bring her home despite the offer from India). Only the Hermes in India remains a future possibility, and she didn't even enter service until the 1950s.
Even selecting HMS Illustrious as a museum ship recently is something that I'd argue isn't showing the attention to this area that is deserved. Of three Invincible class Harrier carriers in the fleet, why wasn't the namesake of the class that was at the center of the fighting in the Falklands with the Hermes, the world's last major naval conflict to date, preserved for future generations instead?
At least there will be a carrier in the national collection now, so that's something.
And what a country for rail preservation. They do so well in that area, almost any other aspect of historic preservation on a national level isn't going to compare.
If you like maritime preservation have a look at this...
www.nomadicbelfast.com
Was that cool or what? Looks like a baby Titanic!
I was in England about ten years ago and fulfilled a lifetime desire to visit the HMS VICTORY. I stood on the quarterdeck where Lord Nelson was fatially shot by a French sniper during the battle of Trafalgar. HMS VICTORY was quite a construction. About the limit in capacity and size of a wooden built ship. Truly a massive gun platform with three decks of heavy artillary. Plus the capacity for enough men for sufficent gun crews, plus the capacity for enough ammunition, plus enough capacity to keep them alive with fresh water and stores. She had enough sail to make her managable at sea with three massive timber masts set in three sections over each other.
Lord Nelson was Admiral over the crusing fleet and the ship was governed by another officer staff. Owing to his rank he had a writing desk, personal kit and cabin in the victorian style that would come down in battle in order that an artillary piece could be used in that location.
Unlike USS CONSTITUTION, the HMS VICTORY is not sea worthy. Walkways have been cut through her hull below the waterline so that visitors can go into the the ship. A walk in museum in dry dock in Portsmouth Naval Yard is about all you have here with HMS VICTORY.
One other wooden british "man-o-war" survives afloat HMS TRINCOMALEE which is about the size and contemporary of USS CONSTITUTION.
Another 1840's British wooden warship of this capacity remains in Dundee, Scotland but without any of the masts or rigging - HMS UNICORN.
It is reported that the British were able to mass produce their massive "man-o-war" because they had disassembled one and it was used as patterns to create the timbers needing to be cut to build these ships. Somewhere in England this dis assembled "man-o-war" exists that could be re-assembled into a fresh warship!
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CUTTY SARK which I also visited is also a museum ship in dry dock in Greenwich England known as the timekeeping center for the world in the last centuries. The Greenwich meridian having been established to pass through the town. Ships such as CUTTY SARK would navigate the world using this Greenwich Mean Time.
CUTTY SARK is the last "Clipper Ship" remaining, a wooden ship designed for high speed world travel by sail. The "Windjamer" sailing ship design replaced the "Clipper Ship" but was primarily made of steel and was an economy bulk hauler.
The United States and England competed more or less in the design of hundreds of Clipper Ships for fast freight and passenger travel. American ships were among the best with, LIGHTENING, FLYING CLOUD, GREAT REPUBLIC being among the most famous - NO American Clipper Ships survive!
English Clipper Ships were used in the "tea trade" supplying the unlimited desire for English people to have tea - similar to American fetish for coffee. The fast fresh delivery of tea from China was a highly prized product. The English Tea Clipper was a contemporary of the American Clipper Ship. Two of these ships survive CUTTY SARK and CITY OF ADELAIDE. This last ship has almost been destroyed numerous times and is in near wreck condition. It really begs preservation considering the almost total loss all these ships.
CUTTY SARK has not been in the water for almost 60 years. Unlike in America which seems to feel wooden ships survive best kept afloat.
CUTTY SARK was the entire "original construction" until during repair it was set on fire and burned a few years ago. Some of this ship survives, it had an iron frame instead of wood which made for a wonderful foundation. At some point in the out of water preservation this was not considered and the iron frame is severely corroding.
This ship is suffering more damage under extremely incompetent museum maintaince than it ever did at sea. Venerated, saved and destroyed all at the same time!
Where is the mayor of Elkhart, Indiana? We need to put him in touch with these people they are all of the same mindset! Your Ignorance Brother I Find Appalling!
Go Figure!
The Cutty Sark was in pretty poor condtion when I viisted about 6 years ago. The weight of one of the masts had bent the keel downward. Not long after was the fire and it's now semi-enclosed in a building. I imagine it would have stayed in reasonable shape had it been kept in the water like the Constitution.
This thread on British rail preservation has taken a side trip into marine matters but I have some comments on the original topic.
The UK has a an open access policy for railways that allows Train Operating Companies (TOCs) to operate trains across the national network. Network Rail (NR) owns, manages, maintains and builds all the public railways except preserved railways and municipal transit systems. NR sets standards and grants certificates for compliant locomotives and cars. These arrangements opened the door to certification of steam locomotives and creation of companies to operate vintage passenger trains. Steam locomotives are limited to a maximum speed of 75 MPH even on routes operated by diesel and electric trains at 125 MPH.
Companies like 'The Railway Touring Co.' organize day trips and multi day tours as a business. They rent steam and diesel locomotives from individuals and preservation organizations to pull them. Their 2015 catalogue runs for over 80 pages. Hundreds of steam trains run every year.
In the context of open access, new build projects like Tornado (A-1 Pacific) and Prince of Wales (P2 Mikado) make sense as they can generate revenue from mainline rentals. Unfortunately for the Pennsylvannia T-1 project, there is no comparable arrangement for access to main line track in the United States.
Amazing considering in Sweden, they dragged the 16th Century man-o-war VASA up off the sea floor and have restored it entirely - it is all original! Seems the British could take a lesson in ship preservation from the Swedish! YA!!!!!!!!!
The Brits seem to like permanently drydocking their preserved ships. Considering the corrosive and erosive effects of salt water there may be something to be said for the practice. If you check out the Nomadic website I posted you'll see she's permanently drydocked.
On the other hand, keeping a wooden hull wet does prevent shrinkage of the wood and deformation of the hull. I don't know. Only time will tell who's got the best approach.
Dr D Amazing considering in Sweden, they dragged the 16th Century man-o-war VASA up off the sea floor and have restored it entirely - it is all original! Seems the British could take a lesson in ship preservation from the Swedish! YA!!!!!!!!! Doc
Vasa's actually in a state of preservation, not restoration. It's in pretty much the same condition it was when it was raised back in the Sixties. Cleaned up of course, but not restored. Vasa was in pretty good condition when it was found because of the low salinity of the Baltic Sea and the fact that in those latitudes wood eating shipworms aren't a problem.
Don't they keep the Vasa continually sprayed with water to keep it from drying out and disintegrating? I recall seeing a war of 1812 gunboat that sank in Lake Champlain that was in a museum in Vermont The wood had shrunk severely so that it couldn't possibly float anymore. Those two American ships from that war that are on the bottom of Lake Ontario near Hamilton are preserved in mint conditon by the government making it illegal to go near them. It's illegal to mess with any sunken warship but that won't stop the scavengers if they get a chance.
It's been a while since I've read or seen anything about it, but I know Vasa was sprayed with freshwater for a number of years after the salvage, I don't think they do it much anymore. The idea was to get what salt was in the wood out of it and to prevent rapid shrinkage. They may spray it ocasionally now. Again, I'm not sure.
There's a gunboat like you describe in the Smithsonian, except this one, the Philadelphia, dates from the Revolution. It was part of Benedict Arnold's Lake Champlain fleet and was sunk at the Battle of Valcour Island in 1776. Like that 1812 war boat, the timbers are pretty severly shrunken, although the boat's in a pretty good state of preservation. It still has its artillery!
Firelock, I think that is the boat I saw. Memory is a bit hazy as it was 49 years ago I was last in the Smithsonian. I recall a cannon ball stuck in the forward planks of the boat. Shrunken to hell. For me, vintage boats should be kept in the water, either wood, iron or steel. That is what they were meant for. Vintage aircraft should be flown. Harrison Ford was injured flying a Ryan training airplane of second world war vintage. I'm sorry he crashed it and was injured, but that is what airplanes are for. I have an old Citroen that I restored over 30 years ago. It's got a million stone chips, scratches and some small dents. That's what happens when you put it to the use for which it was designed. If you don't use the thing, does it really survive? Like I wrote about the Consitution a while back. It's a sailing ship! Sail it!
Yep, that was Philadelphia all right, I've seen that cannonball myself!
So Hank Ford was flying a Ryan? I was wondering, the on-line news reports and local paper didn't specify what aircraft type. If it's a World War Two vintage trainer then it's either a PT-19 or a PT-22. Good, tough airplanes. I wonder what brought it down, again the news reports didn't specify. Engine failure I suppose.
As far as flying vintage airplanes are concerned let me quote the late great Cole Palen, he of the Old Rheinbeck Aerodrome:
"We fly 'em, break 'em, fix 'em, and fly 'em some more!"
My hero.
There's an old, old saying Wobblinwheel, "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence", meaning things always aren't as great as they may seem to be in other places.
Trust me, I've been around awhile and the grass ISN"T always greener on the other side of the fence. The Brits have their governmental issues as well.
Firelock, I've heard Ford's plane was a PT-22. Silver fuselage, yellow wings with the old pre-war "meatball in a star." insignia. Yes, the Brits hate their government as well. Like Canada, you don't so much vote for a guy but vote to get rid of him. No one considers the Prime Minister as anything more than just another political hack, unlike the US where the prez is the head of the government and the head of state, we have that old lady as the head of state.
They also have a lot of rules that we would consider B.S. For example, here if you change the oil in your car yourself, you can take the old oil to most gas stations or the store you bought it from and they will dispose of it. In Britain, that's illegal. I work in garage in London and you need a special license to have someone take the old oil away. You have to get your garage jacks and lifts inspected periodically. I can see about a car lift, but a jack? You have to pay to get rid of tires also. But, scrap metal goes away for free. If you don't call someone from a scrapyard, metal thieves will make it disappear and metal thieves are everywhere.
54, I finally found a picture on-line of Ford's crashed plane, and yes, it's a PT-22, complete with those gorgeous pre-war markings you described. The engine's bent at about a 30 degree angle from the centerline but the damage doesn't look like anything that can't be repaired.
A pretty good job of dead-stick flying on Hank Ford's part, damage nothwithstanding. I doubt he could have done better with the "Millenium Falcon."
So the Brits want a special license to take away used motor oil? What do they want you to do with it otherwise, pour it down the drain?
Well, as a Brit myself - but now an honorary American - I've lived in the USA almost as long as the UK and I am torn on this issue. However, I can say that I spent a lot more time on Steam Engines in the UK than in the USA. Our local UK Steam Locomotive preservation societies were everywhere. I could travel and hour and go ride one - YEAY! Can't say the same about the USA. But as someone pointed out in an earlier post it's a matter of scale. I think the point to remeber here is that some dedicated people want to conserve this for future generations (even if it's just a small portion of track purchased from the owners or the GOV whatever).
I can't imagine how sad it would be for future generations never to have sat in a passenger car and has their senses filled with aroma of buring coal and oil from the engine.
Now that's magic you can't get from your iPhone. iPad etc.
Chris.
Loco Guy - is a state of mind - not an affinity to locomotives.
Sit back and enjoy your track...
Well, welcome aboard Loco Guy!
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