I know there is a concurrent Thread here referencing the need of the C&NW 1385 needing a new boiler. I did not want to take it in a different direction Soooo..
Back when the L&N pulled the 4-4-0 General out of the Chattanooga Union Station basement in 1957/58 (?).. She was taken by flatcar to the L&N's Louisville(Ky) Shops for a modernization and rebuilding.
If interested in the story of " The General" her is a linked site with lots of information: http://www.andrewsraid.com/index2.html
I think, I remember reading that the 1855 Rogers-built engine was completely gone through, but it was found that the original boiler, built of 'Russia Iron' was found to be sound, and not needing replacement (?).
site lined for Russia Iron: http://utahrails.net/russian-iron.php
If this kind of IRON was so good, why was it not more widely used in more steam engines?
The difference is between the "iron" and the "steel" is the difference between the beginning and the flowering of the industrial revolution - its what makes our modern world work. Today we all take mass produced steel for granted.
Ships, railroad engines, structural bridges were made of iron into the mid 1800s and there was metallurgical limit to what could be done and what could be made with iron. Steel which is an iron alloy could not be produced cheaply and in quantity. Steel the alloy of iron with carbon is a union of two basic elements of chemistry By alloying or mixing carbon and iron a stronger metal than iron is made which is called steel. This alloying of iron can also be done with manganese, chromium, vandium and tungsten and other elements to make a wide variety of alloy steels. It has taken over 100 years of technology to perfect this science but the beginning of mass produced steel heralded the modern industrial age.
The mass production of steel allowed steel ships, steel railroads, and steel bridges. The age of steel gave rise to the modern skyscraper like the Empire State Building and bridges like the George Washington.
In modern America the great railroad age allowed some wonders of construction. After years of travel in the wooden passenger coach the modern marvel of the steel heavyweight railroad car was so appreciated for safety. Massive engine construction was possible and the height of the technology was steel ball and roller bearings, cast steel locomotive frames, alloy steel rods and wheels, with nickel steel boilers all of which were immensely strong.
A Russian Iron boiler sheet was a high technology surface finish iron at the time of the American Civil War but it was surpassed by workable bendable and rustable steel. The Russian Iron was a decorative product often used for boiler jacketing over felt, wood or asestos insulation because of its glossy blue color and rust resistance. The General boiler was Russian Iron sheet over felt but the boiler itself was iron. Iron river boat and railroad boilers were always unpredicable because of the brittle nature of iron which did not work well with the constant expansion and contracton common to boilers and their occasional metalurgical weakness and flaws. Everyone was always glad to see the iron boiler give way to steel.
To make iron into steel carbon is the most effective alloy. Carbon Steel is a compound of iron and carbon of 2.1% by weight. The Bessemer Process in the mid 19th Century developed a low cost way of making the steel for mass production, before that only tools and knives, swords and other small items could be made of steel. As the Bessemer Process was perfected the availability of steel increased rapidly and the cost of steel decreased dramatically. The Pennsylvania Railroad helped found many Bessemer steel process mills in hopes of having steel railroad rails. Andrew Carnegie saw great possibility in the Bessemer steel and began to invest in it in 1872. Bessemer Process was finally obsoleted in 1968.
We are all enamored with moves like KILL BILL which venerates the Samurai sword makers of feudal Japan. The hammer forged blades were made into steel by the constant hammering heating and folding of the iron and carbon into steel which was hard on the edge but soft and bendable in the core. This was early steel making at its best and was also common to European swords of the middle ages.
Basically the pig iron is created in a huge 5 story tall iron blast furnace which is charged with coke, iron ore, and limestone. This is set on fire and as it burns it creates the pig iron which is tapped off and runs out of the furnace in a molten river. The iron was carried in railroad cars to the Bessemer Converter where oxygen was blown through it in a dramatic fireworks display which burned off the impurities leaving the carbon necesary for the Bessemer Steel.
American cities like Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo, Gary, Indiana were all steel making cities as was Pittsburgh on the river. Steel was made in the south in Alabama and other cities and also in Ontario, Canada. One of the most unique steel mills was built by Henry Ford at the Rouge Plant in Detroit. Not wanting to be beholding to anyone he had his own steel mills, ships and foundry and the iron ore went in one end of the plant and cars came out the other - total Ford Product. You couldn't find that to be the case with General Motors or Chrysler. The Rouge plant also made its own power with its own electrical generating plant. Think of that next time you consider the Henry Ford Museum.
In Detroit the iron ore would come down by lake freighter to the mill and be unloaded in huge mountains of iron ore. The limestone would come by lake freighter from Tawas, Michigan on the shore of Lake Huron. Coal would come by boat or train from Pennsylvania where it was turned into "coke" and partially burned coal capable of tremendous heat. These products would be mixed in the huge iron furnaces such as Zug Island on the Detroit Rouge River. The pig iron when smelted would go by railroad car to the US Steel mill or Mclouth Steel where the Bessemer process would turn it into steel. It was then placed in huge ladels and formed into cast blooms which were then rolled into sheets and rails depending upon the product and market.
All of these processes became highly developed as modern science unlocked more and more secrets. During the past 100 years a truely modern steel product developed. In the 20th Century almost everything was made of steel!
In the 1980's in Buffalo a huge steel mill was being torn down. The news broadcaster announced on TV - "This ugly eyesore is being destroyed for a park." I shook my head in sadness as this poor individual was so ignorant that he did not know he was looking at the demise of the might and strength of American Industry. The loss of so many American jobs that feed and clothed the people! These mills are what produced the industrial power of the nation and the tanks and the ships that won WW II. This all has happened in England also, in Sheffield and Manchester to the heart of British industry!
Yes they make steel in China but the roller bearings and other product are half the quality of what was made right here in America. Most steel mills have reorganized and many brands are gone. The McLouth Steel mill is a ghost town in down river Detroit, and I watched sadly as one of the four huge iron furnaces on Zug Island was torn down last year and shipped overseas. There is a historic marker along the Detroit River marking that "Here in America the first modern steel making processes were developed for the railroad car industry. Thats right America, Pullman may have been in Chicago but much of American railroad car manufacture was first and foremost here in Detroit!
And thats why Superman was always called "The Man of Steel!"
Doc
It's interesting, Eries K1 Pacific locomotives and some others had Russia Iron boiler jackets well into the 20th Century. Color photographs of the K1's in commuter service tend to show kind of a sky-blue finish, but that could have been due to the way the light was reflected. I've done some on-line research on Russia Iron myself and no two sites seem to agree as to what the actual color of the same was.
It's a pity none of those K1's were saved, they were good-looking machines.
Thanks, Doc(Dr.D):
As a new H.S. graduate, and active model railroader ( at that time) I was really impressed with "The General" ! Then, having the opportunity to be a docent( in the #665 Jim Crow Coach- Baggage Room exhibition) while it was in Memphis for the Cotton Carnival ('62). Afterward, being able to ride behind it as it made a loop around the City. was an added treat. I was really impressed at the time of the extent to which this old 'American' had been upgraded for the 'TOUR' it was on before going back into a display. Some of those conversations, at that time, were about how well the actual locomotive's structure had stood the ravages of time ( It was turned out in 1855/56) by Rogers in NJ. The discussions, as I remeber always seemed to gravitate around the descriptor of the Russia(n) Iron of the boiler, Never metioning the the Russia Iron was a decorative wrap of the actual boiler.
You were right about the quality of boilers built for riverboats back in the pre-, and post- Civil War times. The explosion(and its great loss of life) of the 'Sultana' just north of Memphis, in the aftermath of the Civil War; is still comemorated in Memphis, with Tom Lee Park, on the riverfront.
Based on everything I've read the actual color of Russian Iron is known. The following link describes the research. What I can't reference is the picture of an actual piece of the material. I thought I had kept the reference link when I copy/pasted the picture to my own reference files but apparently not.
http://www.railwayeng.com/dspp/russiron.htm
mersenne6 Based on everything I've read the actual color of Russian Iron is known. The following link describes the research. What I can't reference is the picture of an actual piece of the material. I thought I had kept the reference link when I copy/pasted the picture to my own reference files but apparently not. http://www.railwayeng.com/dspp/russiron.htm
Got your link 'heated up' So Thanks: mersenne6:
Followed your link to the following item @ http://www.narrowgauge.iform.com.au/russian-iron.html
I have seen photographs of Russia Iron, but have been unable to find them again. BUt within the above linked site there are a couple of verbal descriptions of the'look' of Russia Iron.
FTL:[snip]"..."A particular kind of sheet-iron is manufactured in Russia, which, so far as I know, has not been produced elsewhere. It is remarkable for its smooth, glossy surface, which is metallic gray, and not bluish gray, like that of common sheet-iron. On bending it backwards and forwards with the fingers no scale is separated, as is the case with sheet-iron manufactured in the ordinary way by rolling; but on folding it closely, as though it were paper, and unfolding it, small scales are detached along the line of the fold." "In the following pages this kind of sheet-iron will be designated Russian Sheet-Iron. This sheet-iron is in considerable demand in Russia for roofing, and in the United States, where it is largely used in the construction of stoves and for encasing locomotive engines. I am informed that it is there named stove-pipe iron."..." [snipped]
I've heard of Russia iron but I have a question. I've heard of metal being "Japanned"- something to do with the metal or the paint of Model T Fords. Anybody know what Japanned metal is?
Did the use the actual locomotive "The General" in Buster Keaton's legendary movie?
A "Japanned" finish refers to a black laquer finish, and I believe the term goes as far back as the 17th Century, Europeans crediting the Japanese as being the first to come up with the process, although the process did originate in Asia. In those days it would have been seen on various items such as furniture and metal products. A very tough rot and corrosion-resistant finish it was quite the rage among the European upper classes for a time. Eventually "japanning" became a generic term for any black laquer finish, whether it came from Asia or not.
Ford chose the black laquer finish for the Model T's because it dried quickly and kept the production costs down. There was the saying "Any color you want, so long as it's black!" but that's a bit of an exaggeration, you could custom order a T in other colors at an extra cost.
And no, the actual "General" wasn't used in Buster Keaton's movie. Buster used the line and equipment of a West Coast logging 'road that was about to be abandoned and scrapped. Makes my blood run cold to see that old 4-4-0 being wrecked but back then no-one cared, it was just so much junk.
One other thing about Russia Iron, how it was made seems to be a topic for speculation, the Russians never said how they did it. Smart.
Model Railroader once printed an article that said that Volkswagon's "Polar Silver" paint was a decent match for Russia Iron.
I seem to recall reading that The General was considered both for the Keaton and the Disney movies, and may even have been steamed up for review for use by Keaton but it was decided it was too fragile for the kind of use they anticipated in the film.
Dave Nelson
Firelok, thanks for that. I loved that movie and everthing else Buster made. In the film "Seven Chances" there are scenes of Los Angeles streetcars, trains, a railroad crane and such. A classic! Not to get off topic...
If you want to see an example of Japanned finish go over to the Classic Toy Trains forum on this site and look up the thread Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation and go to page 6 of the thread. About halfway down the page is a post on Flyer's #1084 locomotive. The pictured engine is Japanned black finish.
Its pretty hard to find "sheet iron" to work with today. I have in my outboard motor collecton a Johnson "Giant Twin" racing motor from 1928. This monster is the largest opposed twin cylinder internal combustion engine ever built. The spark plugs are 3 feet apart and the pistons fire at eachother. Its an opposed twin design.
Johnson was the premere outboard boat motor builder of the 1920's and 30's. Sadly they were taken down by the Great Depression in their prime. Outboard Marine Corporation picked up the brand in 1933 but the great days of engine building were gone.
At any rate there are like 13 of these Johnson "Giant Twin" engines left in existance. The one I restored had of all things a huge aluminum and stainless iron muffler. Thats right 1928 "stainless iron." The stuff was tough and hard and iron! Not like any steel you might be familiar with.
Eventually, I got Outboard Marine Corporation - aka - Evenrude, Johnson - to send me original blueprints from their engineering files so that I could restore this engine. The original blueprints were drawn up in 1926-1927 by Louis Johnson one of the original founders of Johnson Motor Company.
The sheet iron was an alloy called "Ascalloy Stainless Iron." I took a trip to Factory Steel And Metal in Detroit, which is an industrial concern which buys up all sorts of left over runs of metal from various industrial manufacturers. This is a Jewish company which had a nitch market in the Detroit industrial setting - you could go down there and get a small piece or a run of many alloys of steel, iron, copper, bronze, aluminum. Cool place.
Anyway, Asclloy Stainless Iron was sill a manufactured product TODAY only available in bar stock! Wow! What the hell would anyone do with this today? I don't know but it was not avilable in sheets. I had to rework the 1928 muffler the way it was. Of course a iron muffler is not for the faint of heart because you cannot work sheet iron like you can steel - it cracks! When it was used in the 1920's it was hot and then it got dented. You cannot cold work this out flat with hammer and dolly block. I opted for leaving the dents in it for the "patena" - is old, looks old, should have dents cause it's old!
I would imagine the Russina Iron you talk about is much different to work with than you have any idea. Because if its tough, rough, hard surface finish I think it probably survived on the GENERAL just as it was built by Rogers in 1857. Its the perfect material for a boiler jacket! Impervious to rust, dents, shop tools banging on it and goes right back on the engine just the way it came off!
Yup! Those practical engineers who built engines at Rogers in 1857 knew different stuff - like how to make a railroad engine look good across the centuries!
So How about some Russian Iron on the hood of my Chrysler 300 - damn those hailstones would not dent it!
NEVER underestimate the knowledge and sophistication of the old-timers and their ability to work with what they had. From my studies of history let me tell you, they'll surprise you every time.
Excepting old-time medicine. Lord have mercy...
And you're very welcome 54light!
Firelock76 A "Japanned" finish refers to a black laquer finish, and I believe the term goes as far back as the 17th Century, Europeans crediting the Japanese as being the first to come up with the process, although the process did originate in Asia. In those days it would have been seen on various items such as furniture and metal products. A very tough rot and corrosion-resistant finish it was quite the rage among the European upper classes for a time. Eventually "japanning" became a generic term for any black laquer finish, whether it came from Asia or not. Ford chose the black laquer finish for the Model T's because it dried quickly and kept the production costs down. There was the saying "Any color you want, so long as it's black!" but that's a bit of an exaggeration, you could custom order a T in other colors at an extra cost. And no, the actual "General" wasn't used in Buster Keaton's movie. Buster used the line and equipment of a West Coast logging 'road that was about to be abandoned and scrapped. Makes my blood run cold to see that old 4-4-0 being wrecked but back then no-one cared, it was just so much junk. One other thing about Russia Iron, how it was made seems to be a topic for speculation, the Russians never said how they did it. Smart.
Keaton had asked for permission to use the General and received it. However, the railroad withdrew from the agreement under pressure from veteran's organizations once it was learned that Keaton's movie was to be a comedy.
As for the Russia Iron, the manufacturing of it has become a lost art. As mentioned previously, we have an idea as to what the finished product should look like, but precious little information on how to produce the metal.
It's not russian, but many groups who have re-flued their steamers have decided to go with german-made flues.
They use an amount of copper in the flues, it increases conductivity, and decreases the likelyhood of lime build up and rust, from what I hear.
I can see how copper in the flues would increase heat transfer, and of course copper doesn't rust, but i'm not sure how it would prevent lime (scale?) build up.
It certainly would repel barnacles.
Stephenson designed the ROCKET in 1829. This first modern locomotive "low boiler pressure" design used copper boiler flues.
Copper was also used for locomotive firebox construction but was a highly expensive material to use in bulk for this purpose.
Russian Iron was the decorative sheet iron used for the outer skin of Civil War era locomotives. It was hard, had a natural blue color, and would not dent or damage easily. Under the decorative sheet Russian Iron was a regular old rolled iron locomotive boiler - by modern standards dangerous under high pressure owing to the brittle nature of iron as well as the expansion and contraction created under stress and temperature fluctuation.
One of the best known early engineering textbooks on railroad locomotive design was, Catechism of the Locomotive by Matthias Forney, Mechanical Engineer published by The Railroad Gazette, 73 Broadway, New York in 1880.
Robert Forney writes about designing iron boilers in 1880, saying,
"There is great variation in the tensile strength of rolled iron boiler plate, but that of good plate will average about 50,000 pounds per square inch, if the strain is applied in the direction of the 'grain' or the fibers of the iron and about 10% less if the strain is applied across the grain...At the same time the character of the metal will be altered by the repeated application of strains greater than its elastic limit, and it will become brittle and less able to resist a sudden strain, and will ultimately break short off...This limit of the iron boiler plates may be taken at about 1/5th its breaking, or, as it is called ultimate strength. It should be remembered, however, in this connection, that it often happens that the steam pressure is not the greatest force the boiler must withstand, as sudden or unequal expansion and contraction are probably more destructive, to locomotive boilers especially, than the pressure of the steam."
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How much stronger is steel than iron then? - Yahoo Answers
"When you get iron ore out of the ground it has a lot of carbon content in it. Part of the refining process is to burn away most of the carbon. When you get the carbon content down to a few percent you have "cast iron" which is pretty strong but brittle. If you continue to reduce the carbon content down to less than 1/2 one percent carbon 99.6 % iron then you have steel. Steel has a lot less carbon and a lot higher iron content than "cast iron." By getting the carbon out, you lower the yield strength a little but you get a better engineering material because instead of being brittle it is now very ductile. It can also be heated and work hardened for strength and nitrated or carbonized for surface hardness or "case hardened." By mixing in other alloys like nickel, chromium, vandium or molybdenum great strengths like 300,000 pounds per square inch with 10% elongation before failure."
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Modern steel is six times stronger and double the elongation tolerance than 1880's ordinary rolled iron boiler plate! Considering the locomotive steam boiler as a "pressure vessel" no modern engineer would consider designing one out of anything but STEEL ALLOY.
Let the Russians have all the Russian Iron for good old wood stoves!
Modern German copper flues! - "EIN KAFIG VOLLER HELDEN!"
The copper in the German flues is an alloying agent. I think the idea is to provide the same sort of resistance to corrosion in the gas path as a Cor-Ten steel does to weather. There's usually enough sulfur in the combustion gas to make it work -- unlike that building at Cornell that just rusted and rusted in the relatively clean air.
Russian iron is thin, planished sheet metal. It would never be used for pressure work, only for jacketing. If I remember correctly, it has the advantage of being resistant to corrosion under many environmental conditions (both on the outside and on the side in contact with lagging material) without needing good painting. Most cost-effective grades of thin sheet steel are not like that!
Dr D, I was involved with the construction of several municipal recreation centers with large swimming pools and we had stainless steel filter housings. These were pressure vessels made of 316 Stainless with 316 SS mesh elements inside which most everyone thinks does not corrode. Well, in fairly short order, we started getting corrosion and eventually pinhole perforations in the housings. Long story short and a lot of dollars and expert consultants later, in the process, I learned that there are a lot of types of "stainless steel". There are alloys from 100 series all the way through the 900 series, high carbon and low carbon and many contain no steel at all. In the process of making the shells, they are rolled and then the joints are welded but in the process of welding, it slightly changed the carbon content of that area of the metal and that it in effect, set up a galvanic reaction. We had to replace some with 304L (low carbon) shells and had the interior surfaces passivated which is a treatment to make then less corrodable. What was also happening was that when we shocked the pool with chlorine, that would cause a slight corrosion also but the 304L was less suceptable to it. I think some were later changed to big fiberglass housings. The big natatoriums housing the indoor pools also had 316 SS ductwork and that got holes eaten through it and blew rust flakes out onto the pool deck, they were also eventually replaced with big fiberglass ductwork.
That's interesting, blued. Are you using a process similar to gun blueing?
The folks at the Henry Ford Museum cheated a bit when they restored that 4-4-0 mentioned in a "Trains" article a few issues back. They simulated Russia Iron blue with a metal flake paint job. Very clever!
Yes. Some form of Blueing, going to be performed in Ohio I think. The sheets need to be flat to fit in their tank. Still in the process of getting things ready on the templates, then the cutting & polishing is being performed by an in state company. They will ship the sheets for us to be Blued.
Amazing Michael, thanks for the response! A word of caution from one who was in the business: Gunblueing, (if that's the process being used, or one similar) is corrosion resistant, but not corrosion proof. So keep a good coat of paste wax on the boiler jacket and keep it under cover when not in use.
I'm a metallurgical engineer.
The main advantage of "Russian" iron was that it developed an oxide coating that would stand up to higher temperatures than the paints of the day.
It was used for things like lagging where strength wasn't a problem. It had no other advantage and was very labor intensive to produce, thus it was largely abandoned when rolled steel became available.
That doesn't mean it didn't look very cool.
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