Johnny
Reverse osmosis (RO) is a way of removing salt and other substances from water. Regular osmosis is if you separated a tank of salt water with a tank of fresh water with a plastic membrane -- the osmotic pressure is the tendency of the fresh water to diffuse across the membrane to dilute the salt water. It works on the "nature abhors" a vacuum principle of the random motions of molecules. In reverse osmosis, you have to overcome the "osmotic pressure" that makes this happen and add some pressure to get a useful flow rate across the membrane and you extract fresh water from the salt water to cross over the to fresh water side.
An ordinary particle filter will remove sediments -- the RO membrane is sometimes called a "filter" because it removes ions -- the constituents of salt dissolved in water. As mentioned earlier, it doesn't remove dissolve oxygen, but that is mainly a problem with ultra-pressure boilers in stationary power plants.
If they supplied the locomotive with pure water from RO, there should not be a problem with salt corrosion, but there may be corrosion problems from dissolved gasses that RO does not remove.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Terrible! I can't believe how something like it could happen! This could keep 844 out for a LONG time. Looking at the tubes, it hard to imagine what the inside of the boiler looks like. I don't think this going to help UP Steam program at all.
Is it all buildup or actual corrosion?
S. Connor Is it all buildup or actual corrosion?
There are areas of nucleate corrosion under the scale, as often occurs with deposits this severe. We obviously won't know the extent of the pitting until UP shows us cross-sections of the tubes.
What I'm hoping is that the severe corrosion is limited to the highly-heated zones of the tubes and sheets, and is not (as) severe in the other waterspaces, particularly the areas where shell plates adjoin in the convection section. It is hard to type with both sets of fingers crossed!
838 parts taken ( cut ?) from boiler ?? Well , dunno - can't read their minds nor am I into trying to tell the future and I won't ask Sara .
Only , as far as my technical mind is concerned I wouldn’t spend a dime on replacing parts of 70 years old steel shell with parts of 70 years old steel shell - each cut to suit and then welded into position? .. within a riveted boiler ?
No , guys : if you want this 4-8-4 to run again under her own steam take that chance for what it is and build a new boiler at last - adapt design for 300 psi / 840 °F and before anything else forget about riveting !
It will be even more challenging , yet allow old Chally 3985 to have a new one , too !
My best wishes for good recovery of these engines , so one fine day we shall see them again back up on their trains and will exclaim :
“ Welcome back my friends
to the show that never ends !”
Juniatha
Welcome back Juniatha! You were missed young lady! The forum's not the same without the "Steam Queen"!
Juniatha 838 parts taken ( cut ?) from boiler ?? Well , dunno - can't read their minds nor am I into trying to tell the future and I won't ask Sara . Only , as far as my technical mind is concerned I wouldn’t spend a dime on replacing parts of 70 years old steel shell with parts of 70 years old steel shell - each cut to suit and then welded into position? .. within a riveted boiler ?
If there is corrosion damage to the shell of 844's boiler, it will likely be in so many places as to make patching uneconomical even if there were a good way to accomplish and then test the welding. I also expect corrosion at and under the lower seams, where I don't think the wastage can be made good without physical disassembly of the riveted joints -- not a likely thing for them to undertake.
When I said 'components' I was thinking in terms of smokebox - convection section - radiant section. I doubt there is any cost-effective solution better than replacing a pitted 844 convection section, and perhaps chamber, with the equivalent from 838. I do not know and have not seen anything about the condition of the water spaces in the radiant section, but I'd have to wonder how much scaling and corrosion exists there, too.
I suspect there are at least two orders of magnitude cost difference between swapping boilers and building a new welded boiler -- probably more. Even UP is going to have limits to its out-of-pocket spending, especially with 4014 'in the pipeline' - I'm not going to speculate on the current "steam team's" economic priorities, but I'd be prepared to bet that swapping, not new build, is the route they will take if the shell problems prove serious.
Note that this approach is not my personal preference, either: I thoroughly agree with Juniatha that a new boiler ought to be built, and its convection section should be all-welded, and that the whole of the boiler should be optimized for modern welded construction. My one question would be with the 840-degree nominal superheat, which in my opinion might necessitate redesign, perhaps substantial redesign, of the valves, their cooling, and their lubrication -- but I would consider that work a great potential improvement, both mechanically and thermodynamically, to the FEF-3 design.
It all boils down to (sorry, couldn't resist) money on the one hand, and vision on the other. I do have to wonder about the priorities of a team that could allow a power boiler to get into the observed state, though...
All this talk about scale, corrosion and other nastys jogged my memory a bit more.
So I went DEEPER into the archives of the "Fortress Firelock", so deep I had to bring Ginger the Attack Basset with me for protection, 'cause you don't know what's down there. And lo and behold I found...
"Maxims And Instructions For The Boiler Room", published by Theo. Audel & Co. of 63 Fifth Ave, (corner of 13th St.) New York City in 1903. Blew the dust off (gasp! wheeze!) and looked up "corrosion."
Found some GOOD stuff in there, too much to go into unfortunately, but for a good insight for what those who lived with steam on a daily basis had to say it can't be beat. Such as...
"Chemically pure water is that which has no impurities...and were a quantitiy evaporated from a perfectly clean vessel, there would be no solid matter remaining."
"But strangely, investigation has proved that water of this purity rapidly corrodes iron...more readily than 'hard' water does."
This gem...
"The lines of a certain great R.R. traverse a country where the water is very hard and they are compelled to resort to some method of precipitating the lime that is held in solution, They have made a compound and use it as follows: in a barrel of water of a capacity of fifty gallons they put 21 pounds of carbonate of soda and 35 pounds of white caustic soda. A certain amount according to the necessities of the case is poured into the tender water tank at each filling. When the water is pumped into the boiler the heat completed the precipitation and aggregation (of scale causing solids) and this does away with all the trouble of the tenders or injector tubes clogging up."
Another surprise:
"It is recorded that the engineer of the French ocean steamer St. Laurent omitted to remove a bar of zinc when repairing and cleaning out his boilers. On opening the boilers at the end of the voyage to his great surprise he found that the zinc had disappeared, but the boilers were entirely free from scale and the boiler plates not injured in the least."
Another scale preventer, and this will surprise you...
"Bark, such as is used by tanners, has an excellent effect on boiler incrustations. It is used as follows: Throw into the tank a quantity of bark in sufficient quantity to turn the water to a light brown color. Repeat this operation every month, using only half the quantity after the first month. Add one pound of muriate of ammonia for every 2000 gallons of water used. This will have the effect of softening and disintegrating the carbonate of lime and other impurities deposited by the action of evaporation." They do suggest putting the bark in a sack so it doesn't clog feed lines, so they're ahead of what you might be thinking.
There's other things in the book, way too much to go into, but to me the lesson is haunt those used bookshops, antique shows, and flea markets for these old books. There's pure gold in 'em!
I found the "New Catechism of the Steam Engine" in the archives too, this one from 1903 as well. It's a lot more interesting than the "Baltimore Catechism" I had to study in Catholic school, let me tell 'ya!
You gotta love those old-timers, they were a lot more sophisticated than many of us give them credit for, and they'll surprise you every time.
Firelock76 Chemically pure water is that which has no impurities...and were a quantitiy evaporated from a perfectly clean vessel, there would be no solid matter remaining." "But strangely, investigation has proved that water of this purity rapidly corrodes iron...more readily than 'hard' water does."
Chemically pure water is that which has no impurities...and were a quantitiy evaporated from a perfectly clean vessel, there would be no solid matter remaining."
Maybe you just hit on what went wrong, and it has nothing to do with "pool chemicals."
Do you suppose someone thought, "We'll solve the boiler scale problem, just use RO (reverse osmosis) to purify the water from its mineral content." They didn't go the next step and pay attention to the dissolved gas content (O2) as they do with a high-pressure watertube steam system in a power plant, and they ended up corroding the steel? Do you suppose the "conventional" approach of using hard water and doing the boiler maintenance to periodically remove scale protects the metal from corrosion?
These various witches brews you speak of were formalized by the French TIA water treatment followed by Porta's recommendations. Livio Dante (L.D.) Porta's recommendation was to use doses of water softening chemicals but not "blow down" the boiler very often so as to allow a high concentration of "dissolved solids" to accumulate. This primordeal soup in the boiler instead of distilled (or RO purified) water apparently did a good job of keeping the boiler free of both scale and corrosion.
Part of the brew, as you mention, is tannin. I don't have my copy of Wardale in front of me to figure out if the tannin prevents foam formation or if the anti-foam is yet another chemical. The problem is that with this mineral soup in the boiler, scale will not form, but you will "blow bubbles" when the stuff boils, and those bubbles will wreck your superheater and maybe even your pistons if they entrain a slug of water.
If the wrecked this boiler by using purified water, an experiment the "old timers" never ran because distilled water was costly and RO was not in wide use, this is a useful piece of information for steam locomotive lore, but it is too bad this knowledge was gained in this costly fashion.
I"m a little baffled. In the steam days they (usually) took water from a well, I'm assuming that a water tender added the boiler treatment in the water towers regularly.
Not exactly pure in the sense that they certainly didn't use any type of osmosis. Seemed to work fine. Maybe the thing to do is use only well water, I'll bet they could still find the old wells.
Does any one know if the boiler on the 838 is condemned ? Maybe the thing to do is migrate parts from the 844 to the 838?
Paul Milenkovic Firelock76 Chemically pure water is that which has no impurities...and were a quantitiy evaporated from a perfectly clean vessel, there would be no solid matter remaining." "But strangely, investigation has proved that water of this purity rapidly corrodes iron...more readily than 'hard' water does." Maybe you just hit on what went wrong, and it has nothing to do with "pool chemicals." Do you suppose someone thought, "We'll solve the boiler scale problem, just use RO (reverse osmosis) to purify the water from its mineral content." They didn't go the next step and pay attention to the dissolved gas content (O2) as they do with a high-pressure watertube steam system in a power plant, and they ended up corroding the steel? Do you suppose the "conventional" approach of using hard water and doing the boiler maintenance to periodically remove scale protects the metal from corrosion? These various witches brews you speak of were formalized by the French TIA water treatment followed by Porta's recommendations. Livio Dante (L.D.) Porta's recommendation was to use doses of water softening chemicals but not "blow down" the boiler very often so as to allow a high concentration of "dissolved solids" to accumulate. This primordeal soup in the boiler instead of distilled (or RO purified) water apparently did a good job of keeping the boiler free of both scale and corrosion. Part of the brew, as you mention, is tannin. I don't have my copy of Wardale in front of me to figure out if the tannin prevents foam formation or if the anti-foam is yet another chemical. The problem is that with this mineral soup in the boiler, scale will not form, but you will "blow bubbles" when the stuff boils, and those bubbles will wreck your superheater and maybe even your pistons if they entrain a slug of water. If the wrecked this boiler by using purified water, an experiment the "old timers" never ran because distilled water was costly and RO was not in wide use, this is a useful piece of information for steam locomotive lore, but it is too bad this knowledge was gained in this costly fashion.
Add this to Randy Stahl's remark " ...I"m a little baffled. In the steam days they (usually) took water from a well, I'm assuming that a water tender added the boiler treatment in the water towers regularly..." [snip]
I cannot attempt to speak of the technical aspect of water quality, what a railroad might do, or not do, by way of ensuring water quality for its steam locomotive consumption.
I am simply a rail fan, and my knowledge base for steam is only in the area of an interested bystander.
What really concerns me is the extent that this problem of maintaining a workable water quality in these times when the knowledge base for operations of active steam engines, is somewhat anecdotal, to those long, dying operational skill sets, are very problematic in these times.
To most of us, water is 'water'. Some of us are aware that water is 'hard' , and some water is 'soft'. Beyond that we leave it to the experts who can use the available water to their specific needs. The 'Chemistry' of water quality is somewhat a mystery to the large population.
I have watched tenders refilled from City Water Hydrants, and out here, in Kansas the MKT used, in some places ponds, and lagoons for locomotive water sources. We all know that steam locomotive are periodically 'blown down' the why is generally just accepted as a necessary practice for operation.
It is scary to think that an organization as big as Union Pacific, can get caught in this web of water quality issues. That those very seemingly, necessary details, can verge on the possible side-lining of their years of a successful steam heritage program.
A.) The other aspect of this is what is being done about this potential major issue at some of the other Steam Heritage Operations?
B.) How do others handle their steam locomotive water quality issues?
1.) The TVRMs partnership with the Norfolk Southern's 21 Century Program ?
2.) The Strasburg Railroads Steam Operations ? IRM?
3.) Have they had these Water Quality, and Maintenance Issues Crop up?
a.) What do they do for their water quality?
I suspect that this issue of water quality in Modern Steam Operations is going to become a much bigger consideration than it has 'til now?
It seems to be the big question is: How bad is the condition of 844 or even 3985? Will they be repaired, after 4014 is back in operation? You can bet it will be more closely monitored for its quality of boiler water..
Paul, it's interesting what you said about scale having the possible effect of protecting the steel from corrosion. In one of my rail books concerning steam the author said a LITTLE bit of scale is OK, as it helps seal any possible gaps in the boiler shell and also seals where the flues meet the flue sheets. The author didn't say anything about the possible rust prevention benefits of scale, however.
The possibility's certainly there.
That old book of mine does mention boiler foam, however they called it "scum". I'll have to check what it says about same. As I've said there's gold in these old books. It's enough to make me think there's been more forgotten about steam engines than there's known now.
When these engines were built, as with the US made autos,Tanks, etc.. USA mined Taconite in Wisconsin, made into pellets, shipped across the Great lakes ( Edmund Fitzgerald sank full of Taconite). When melted at casting and foundries it was pretty high quality, pretty pure, and Dense. Nickle added to castings made them very durable.
Today's recycled Steel and cast is of poor quality most made over seas now. If you take a look at a NOS car fender from 1950 with a magnifying glass it looks solid. A reproduction fender through the same glass is porous and looks likes Swiss cheese.
Making new boilers must be pretty tough these days. I would bet the boys at Age of Steam in Ohio have a good handle on that. Their Steam engines run in Revenue freight service.
Water, I remember at Steamtown ( back in VT) talking with a worker there about how they used CT River water, and that the PH was close to neutral and it didnt have much Iron in it he said. He also said that he ran an air hose from a painting compressor with a water filter on the line and into the boiler fill to help dry it out fast.
The Steam used in boilers at power plants is condensed and recycled and seems to be a closed loop system which I am guessing is chemically controlled and the amount of fee oxygen is low.
The 844 looks bad but I have seen worse in the shops at Stasburg parts engines , and at Steamtown in VT on early engines just starting to get flues and tubes.I can only Imagine how bad the UP 4012 tubes and boiler look on the inside.
UP's site says the 844 WILL run again... so we sill see...
BARFlyerUP's site says the 844 WILL run again... so we sill see...
When these engines were built, there was no taconite. There were many different types of iron ore mined in Minnesota (not Wisconsin) and they arranged them carefully to get the best steel.
BARFlyer When these engines were built, as with the US made autos,Tanks, etc.. USA mined Taconite in Wisconsin, made into pellets, shipped across the Great lakes ( Edmund Fitzgerald sank full of Taconite). When melted at casting and foundries it was pretty high quality, pretty pure, and Dense. Nickle added to castings made them very durable. Today's recycled Steel and cast is of poor quality most made over seas now. If you take a look at a NOS car fender from 1950 with a magnifying glass it looks solid. A reproduction fender through the same glass is porous and looks likes Swiss cheese. Making new boilers must be pretty tough these days. I would bet the boys at Age of Steam in Ohio have a good handle on that. Their Steam engines run in Revenue freight service. Water, I remember at Steamtown ( back in VT) talking with a worker there about how they used CT River water, and that the PH was close to neutral and it didnt have much Iron in it he said. He also said that he ran an air hose from a painting compressor with a water filter on the line and into the boiler fill to help dry it out fast. The Steam used in boilers at power plants is condensed and recycled and seems to be a closed loop system which I am guessing is chemically controlled and the amount of fee oxygen is low. The 844 looks bad but I have seen worse in the shops at Stasburg parts engines , and at Steamtown in VT on early engines just starting to get flues and tubes.I can only Imagine how bad the UP 4012 tubes and boiler look on the inside. UP's site says the 844 WILL run again... so we sill see...
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Unfortunately, I believe that since UP has put over $120 million into the 4014, I don't think there will be enough to go around right now for both 3985 and 844.
I doubt they'll be willing to take some of the money away from 4014 to help out a bit with them. By the pictures, 844 could be in some serious trouble. Like new boiler trouble.
Of course I could always be wrong. Just what I think.
Taconite was mined in the late 1800s along with Iron ore and yes most of the raw Iron ore was from Minnesota. By WW2 the US had mined all the raw ore and Taconite became the main source of Iron for locos built after the war, which includes a bunch.
You are right, the "Best Steel" was needed. My point is thats Not an easy task these days...in the world of toss and replace. People mention, "oh just get a "new" boiler" .. if it was only that easy, to get one made the exact same way with the same durrability...
BARFlyer You are right, the "Best Steel" was needed. My point is thats Not an easy task these days...in the world of toss and replace. People mention, "oh just get a "new" boiler" .. if it was only that easy, to get one made the exact same way with the same durrability...
That's what I meant. A new boiler, even one for a small consolidation (2-8-0) costs from $100K to $200K. And I doubt that it will even last 3/4 the time the original did.
Lets hope just the removal of scale on 844 will be enough.
As for taking 838's flues. Forget it. It's kinda sad seeing her just being slowly cannibalized for parts. In good time, MAYBE 10 years or so, UP should do something with 838. I mean, how many steamers of her type are left? Two? Maybe three?
Eventually, there won't be enough left of 838 to make it worthwhile. UP can support 3 steamers, why not run a 4th while one of the others is down for 1472 inspection?
So stop using 838 for parts like she's junk, UP!!!!
They basically already have, she has been made available for preservation and probably still is available. It's up now to a worthwhile group to raise the funds, develop a plan, and secure her by making a deal with Union Pacific.
I'm not sure if they've held on to 844's old pieces to make her cosmetically complete someday (Would be nice if they've been planning for that eventuality over the years), but locomotives in far worse shape have been turned into fine displays before.
About the only thing she could really contribute at this point is her boiler and maybe some running gear components. Assuming they wouldn't scrap something like 844's boiler, it shouldn't pose a major issue if that happened someday. Just swap the parts.
The situation with UP 844 may be pointing out a problem that isn't going to go away. A lot of the institutional knowledge and skill that existed for the operation of steam locomotives is going away and is unlikely to be replaced. Maintenance and operation of steam locomotives has become an increasingly specialized skill set that is becoming more difficult to maintain and continue in its own right. If these skills disappear (a real possibility), then UP 844, UP 4014, N&W 611 and a host of other operating steam locomotives will become little more than static displays.
CSSHEGEWISCH The situation with UP 844 may be pointing out a problem that isn't going to go away. A lot of the institutional knowledge and skill that existed for the operation of steam locomotives is going away and is unlikely to be replaced. Maintenance and operation of steam locomotives has become an increasingly specialized skill set that is becoming more difficult to maintain and continue in its own right. If these skills disappear (a real possibility), then UP 844, UP 4014, N&W 611 and a host of other operating steam locomotives will become little more than static displays.
The day those skills dissapear will be the day I die..... I would hate to see such skills go....
For these skills to survive two things have to happen...
1) Young people have got to get interested, or be gotten interested in it.
2) They have to be able to make a decent living at it.
The first might be easy, the second, I'm not so sure.
Firelock76 For these skills to survive two things have to happen... 1) Young people have got to get interested, or be gotten interested in it. 2) They have to be able to make a decent living at it. The first might be easy, the second, I'm not so sure.
I might add a third criteria - there has to be enough continuing demand for the skills for the practitioners to remain proficient in using the skills. Use it or lose it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Call me a curmudgeon and a cynic, and I know it's a silly generalization...but unless there's an app for that....
There has been talk here about the quality of steel available if a new boiler needs to be fabricated. I'm not that knowledgeable about metallurgy, but I think wrought iron is considerably less prone to corrosion than steel. How about sandwiching a layer of iron inside a steel boiler? I'll let the more knowledgeable pick at this idea.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
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