Does anyone here have accurate information about what is going on with UP 844? The following doesn't paint a very pretty picture for 844 or the UP steam program.
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,3426166
.
It looks to me like using pool chemicals in a high pressure boiler was a serious lapse in judgment. They are meant to do two different things . I hope the boiler is not ruined and that they gave it a good boiler wash to remove the pool chemicals. Sad, very sad.
The pictures don't look good, I hope the ultrasound shows little damage to boiler thickness and that its not pitted too badly. I wouldn't hold your breath though.
One of the significant costs of steam in it's day was water treatment, this situation is evidence of why.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD One of the significant costs of steam in it's day was water treatment, this situation is evidence of why.
So what do today's steam boiler experts use as water treatment if any ?. The electric power steam generating plants might give us an answer ?
blue streak 1 BaltACD One of the significant costs of steam in it's day was water treatment, this situation is evidence of why. So what do today's steam boiler experts use as water treatment if any ?. The electric power steam generating plants might give us an answer ?
I'm betting they don't use cheap pool chemicals.
From what I can see of the tubes and from reading the entries, it appears that there may have been excess oxygen in the feed water (brown spots and blisters under which are pits in the tubes) and an acid wash might have been done. An acid wash is usually a last resort type of thing, to be avoided if other methods are available to remove heavy buildups of hard scale. Soft water will help break scale loose but if it's very heavy than an acid wash can be done. From what I can see, the scale buildup was not that heavy. I could be wrong. From what they said, the chemicals came from a "swimming pool" company? Maybe they came from a chemical supplier who sells chemicals for both boilers and pools? It's not uncommon.
For any boiler the requirements are: soft water to give correct Ph and an oxygen scavenger (A sulfite, similar to what is in wine) and a RO filter if one is available. Also proper blowdown. Any boiler that has no returns of it's water, the life of a tube is generally pretty short and it's accepted as such. In a stationary or marine boiler where you get all or most of the returns, the tube life can be 30 years or more. Usually the tube is the part that is most affected, the shell will survive a lot longer than the tube.
anyway, that is my best guess about the 844s boiler tubes. A close examination would be in order. Anybody want to pay my way out there? Thanks!
Uh, 'scuse my lack of experience, but aren't pool treatment chemicals supposed to kill germs, not scale?
Yes, I'll bet the boiler was safe to swim in. If the goal was bacteria free locomotive boiler I'll bet they came close
I am only able to read just so much on that other website without being a paid member so I can only guess here. I'm not a pool expert but I would think that a pool chemical company would have a product to reduce scale in the lines, filters, valves and so forth depending on the water hardness in a given area.
What Empire Builder wrote does make sense. Might have been a mistake to use municipal water and add the wrong water treatment chemicals. Most boilers that I look at, which are stationary, the make-up water is municipal and has whatever chemicals in it and as far as I know most municipal water has chlorine. So, chemicals would be sold to the customer to counteract any affects of chlorine. The thing is, the water only comes from one source, not several as used for locomotives today such as fire departments and so forth. In steam days, didn't the water towers have some sort of treatment facility? In Germany, the water tanks of the locomotives all have a sign with a skull and cross bones saying 'Not drinking water!" (Kein Trinkwasser!)
In steam days 'roads did have water treatment facilities, some more so than others. I remember reading an article in "Classic Trains" where the fireman (don't remember which 'road) tossed a baseball-sized ball of treatment chemical in the tank, no other treatment was apparantly necessary.
Of course there was the old rule-of-thumb, "If you wouldn't drink it, don't put it in the tank!"
I wonder if the local water the UP uses has flouride in it so the locomotive doesn't get cavities?
Flouride, did you say? I don't think the UP is run by Communists. So, prolly not.
54light15 Flouride, did you say? I don't think the UP is run by Communists. So, prolly not.
Well that's good, we don't want 844's precious bodily fluids being poisoned, now do we?
54light15 "... and a RO filter if one is available."
"... and a RO filter if one is available."
54light15, I'm curious: what is this RO that needs to be filtered?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington54light15, I'm curious: what is this RO that needs to be filtered?
RO is reverse osmosis; it's a kind of filter rather than something needing to be filtered.
Thanks, Overmod. I assume it's to remove salts from the water. Is it something that would be used to treat the water before it is put in the tender, or is it on-board the tender or engine? I'm a little familiar with reverse osmosis, but I've never heard of it being used for locomotives.
I was told by people at the National Railway Museum in York, England that they use RO filtered water on their locomotives that run on a standard route, say in and out of the museum. Don't know what they do on a a longer excursion but the ones I've been on, a fire brigade water truck is usually used.
"Precious bodily fluids? " Yeeee Haaa!
Sorry , to me that looks like this will mean building a new boiler for 844 !
- if the engine is to run again , that is ..
... and , sure , it would have been easily and absolutely avoidable with continuous and proper application of TIA or PT water treatment .
Now , next questions will be :
* fund raising for new construction
* decide on either historical rivetted or ( technically much preferable ) welded construction within given historic boiler outer shape
* find a construction company to realize the one-off job
Juniatha
I wonder what else was damaged? Blowdown valves, cylinders, valves, and other "wet" parts on the engine. I'll bet the tender tank and feedwater heaters, air compressor, injectors, turbo generator, feedwater pump. have a voided warranty too.
I gotta wonder if they used the same crap in the challenger?
I would never expect this from the UP with their vast steam experience.
Paul of CovingtonI assume it's to remove salts from the water.
Yes; that's the primary difference between RO and fine filtration: the RO can remove dissolved ions.
Is it something that would be used to treat the water before it is put in the tender, or is it on-board the tender or engine?
Almost certainly on the ground. RO generally requires reasonably high pressure and some reasonable time to accomplish its work -- both these characteristics make a ground-based water purification plant more sensible. RO-purified water will still require additives to get it to the correct pH, correct zero oxygen, etc. suitable for locomotive boiler use; the additive package now supplies only desired chemistry and doesn't require a chemical tradeoff like 'softening' with zeolites to get the least objectionable TDS.
Juniatha Now , next questions will be : * fund raising for new construction * decide on either historical rivetted or ( technically much preferable ) welded construction within given historic boiler outer shape * find a construction company to realize the one-off job
I'd like to see your #2 happen, but I think the far most likely scenario, if the shell is as badly pitted as we fear, is going to be to swap boiler components from 838.
It remains to be seen just how badly damaged, if at all, 844's boiler is. Remember that's one thick tube of steel, it would take some doing to seriously mess it up.
Flues and flue sheets, OK that's another matter, but those can be easily (all things considered) replaced.
Randy Stahl blue streak 1 BaltACD One of the significant costs of steam in it's day was water treatment, this situation is evidence of why. So what do today's steam boiler experts use as water treatment if any ?. The electric power steam generating plants might give us an answer ? I'm betting they don't use cheap pool chemicals.
Hi All
This is what I would characterise as a case of neglect or ignorance.
I'm not sure how anyone familiar with HP steam generation could or would use pool chemicals to treat boiler feedwater. It certainly isn't something I can imagine.
I'm retired from a number of things, among them steam generation and powerhouse operation.
I have to say those pictures on Trainorders re 844 are really, really bad and even more than that, sad.
I've never seen such pitting and corrosion on the water side of the tubes and especially at the tubesheet joints. I'm left wondering what is left of the rest of the boiler waterside joints, staybolts. welds etc, never mind the condition of the rest of the boiler sheets and and boiler auxiliaries like pumps, injectors, valves etc....
I hope its not as bad as those pictures, but if it is, and it may well be, 844 is in big trouble......
The whole point of boiler feedwater treatment, expensive as it is, is to prevent this kind of damage to any boiler. the repairs are infinitely more expensive than the treatment regime will ever be.
Pool chemicals are not intended to work with HTHP water to the best of my knowledge. Pool water temperatures are nowhere near those found in an operating HP boiler, locomotive or otherwise. Neither is the operating chemistry the same in my experience.
Standard feedwater treatment is applied after chemical analysis of the feedwater has been conducted. A treatment regime is specified and applied and regularly tested under operating conditions, hence part of the expense involved. There's lot of treatment programmes available I'm sure. There were in my day.
in addition to this water treatment, regular washouts, especially with 'once through' operation are part of regular operation practice. So too if the boilers are out of service of any length of time they are 'laid up' wet or dry which involve a bunch of other procedures.
Its all about preventing scaling and corrosion.
Large thermal power plants have their own labs to do this feedwater/condensate analysis and adjust treatment accordingly. In the plants in which I worked, weekly analysis of feedwater and condensate was standard on LP Heating Boilers and it was daily on HP process boilers. The UP steam programme must have treatment standards including regular testing and analysis. If they don't I'm to say the least amazed. considering the value of the assets (read locomotives) these water treatments are intended to protect.
Dissolved solids, free oxygen and water additives all have an effect on feed water and its use and effect in steam generation. Florine and chlorine are among the most corrosive of chemicals. When they are subjected to high temperature and pressure conditions their corrosive effects become that much stronger as with free oxygen and TDS.
If pool chemicals were used...that was worse than amateur practice in these conditions on 844.
I'm more than amazed.......
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
All this talk about corrosion reminded me of something, so I went deep into the archives here at the "Fortress Firelock" and pulled out a special issue of "Trains" from 2008 called "Steam Today."
In an article titled "Rebuild or Reboiler" Lynn Moedinger of the Strasburg Railroad said something I found very interesting, if not downright disquieting.
I quote:
"One of the biggest killers of boilers is corrosion. New steel is so bad we gave up on carbon steel for boiler jackets. We use stainless steel cylinder jackets too, and (2-10-0) 90's tender is 100 percent welded stainless steel."
"We find that flues don't last nearly as long. Our engines have heat lamps in them 100 percent of the time when they're not being used, and that's to prevent condensation. And even then, we still get blisters on the flues, and it's strictly a function of the steel. We're using stainless steel for anything that could corrode, wherever we're allowed too."
Since it's prone to cracking during repeated heating and cooling it's illegal to use stainless steel in boilers. Moedinger blames the problems with newer steel as being due to the amount of recycled content in it.
So, it behooves steam operators to watch what they put in the boiler, for more reasons than one.
That's very interesting. There's not a lot of metallurgical control over scrap made steel. But there are not a lot of mills that use and mix ore's for good quality.
Randy
Overmod Juniatha Now , next questions will be : * fund raising for new construction * decide on either historical rivetted or ( technically much preferable ) welded construction within given historic boiler outer shape * find a construction company to realize the one-off job I'd like to see your #2 happen, but I think the far most likely scenario, if the shell is as badly pitted as we fear, is going to be to swap boiler components from 838.
What parts does the 838 have left? I would think the boiler would have been one of the first things to be exchanged.
(Juniatha, good to see you here.)
Overmod Almost certainly on the ground. RO generally requires reasonably high pressure and some reasonable time to accomplish its work -- both these characteristics make a ground-based water purification plant more sensible. RO-purified water will still require additives to get it to the correct pH, correct zero oxygen, etc. suitable for locomotive boiler use; the additive package now supplies only desired chemistry and doesn't require a chemical tradeoff like 'softening' with zeolites to get the least objectionable TDS.
Agree with RO being on the ground.
Pressures for RO aren't all that high for city water, home RO units work just fine from normal household water pressure. Pressure for desalinating sea water is about 800 PSI, which is less than half what is needed to pump water over the Tehachapis.
I asked the guy selling us a water softener about using a whole house RO, his comment was that the water would be too pure and lead to more corrosion of the pipes. A little hardness can be a good thing.
- Erik
NorthWest What parts does the 838 have left? I would think the boiler would have been one of the first things to be exchanged.
She still has her boiler. The steam crew has said more than once that it's in much better shape than the 844's thanks to decades of further use.
844 seems to be having a run of bad luck with flues. If I remember right there was a failure with some fairly new ones about a decade ago in California. I don't remember hearing what the cause was. Faulty manufacture?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.