N&W Class J

[friend611]

However, I do not see any trains going over Saluda in 2014, or ever. Besides the issue regarding the closure of the grade and the washouts (you ought to see the video I saw on Youtube about how bad the worst of the two washouts are), there is the safety issues regarding the grade. Saluda has always been a dangerous section of railroad to operate, with a history of runaways and wrecks and lives lost. Lives were lost just in building the line, and by the time 611 began runs on Saluda, there was talk about how long the line would remain open. The line is now closed, and I do not think that NS is interested in opening it again. Rumors circulate of course, and even if the above mentioned washouts could be fixed (from what I saw in the video, it would be very difficult) there is question whether NS would want to invest in opening the line, regarding its history. And even if NS can repair the line and open it, I do not see 611 running on it again. Excursions require a lot of precautions and safety procedures that are not necessary anywhere else, and I doubt the railroad or Fire Up 611 would want to risk losing her for one more run over the grade. I know there are others that feel different, but for me, 611's work on Saluda is done. She has proven herself on the grade, and there are other grades on the railroad for her to conquer without putting her in such danger.
lois

[Overmod]

GP40-2

Easier solution in 2014. Use one heavy weight ES44AC with high adhesion - high TE software to drag the entire train , 611 included over the grade. Simple.

He's right.  And it would be.

(But wouldn't it be better to have DPU control from 611's cab, and put the ES44 either back in the consist or on the rear?  There ought to be some way to assure that the node, no matter how hard 611 is pulling, is no more than one or two cars behind the tender drawbar...)

There have been some 'reasonable' reasons for opening limited service over Saluda.  But I'd agree that the days when there was a reason to run 611 on the grade are likely over, particularly now that private organizations have stewardship of the locomotive.

[friend611]

As said before on this thread, 611 has MU capabilities, which she can operate a series of diesel units, but not able to operate their dynamic brakes, needing a man in the cab of one of the units for MU operation of the dynamic brakes. Why I suppose is that she is not set up for that level of operation. Having seen and moved the controls on her brake stand, it is set up for train brakes and independent (locomotive) brakes. The MU throttle I suppose is set up to be operated from her throttle. I saw no other controls on the brake stand except push/pull buttons for the bell and sanders.
lois

[friend611]

However, there is a possibility I missed something among the controls, and something may have been removed, as the radio is not in the cab at present (where it it I don't know, unless they plan to just install a new one.) There is something I did not miss. That is the MU hoses at the rear of the tender, still with their initial labels. The radio antenna appears to be still on the engine as well.
However, how much 611 will be using MU operation when she is returned to service I don't know. It is unknown if she will be climbing steep grades (even with Saluda closed, the nearby Southern Loops are still open to her.) All I can see in the way of grades at present is on the original N&W, meaning Blue Ridge, Christiansburg Mountain and Flat Top Mountain into Bluefield. Anything else will have to be decided on later.
lois

[friend611]

With Saluda closed and most likely permanently out of service (the main washout at Melrose being so difficult to repair and the operating nature of the line)the only major grade on the Southern that 611 ran on that remains is the Southern Loops. This was a line not far from Saluda constructed in a series of loops to tackle a mountain, from Old Fort, NC to Ridgecrest, NC to Asheville. I will have to research the grade on this line, though it was not as severe as Saluda but had curves and tunnels, the longest being Swannanoa Tunnel near Ridgecrest at the top of the grade. 611 did slip a few times on this line, and always went up with two diesels in MU operation. Before 1990, she was unable to run on this line, though 1218 was able to run on it in 1989. (1218 would have been "out of the question" on Saluda due to the steep grade endangering exposure of the crown sheet.) Afterward, track work was done allowing 611 to run on the line. As a footnote, steam recently returned to the Southern Loops with trips behind Southern 630 last year.
lois

[Overmod]

friend611

(1218 would have been "out of the question" on Saluda due to the steep grade endangering exposure of the crown sheet.)

Not sure this follows.  I'd think 1218 would go UP Saluda (which is the part that would matter to the railfans) just fine with respect to her crownsheet -- the problems would manifest elsewhere.  With enough water to cover the crown 'going up, there might be additional trouble with priming/carryover in the available steam space adjacent to the dome, and there might be some tendency to expose the forward end of some of the upper flues, followed by thermal shock to some degree with locomotive motion and as the top of the grade was reached, which might cause leaks there.  (I personally have no great love for running modern power on archaic grades just to watch it slip and stall and struggle, so I haven't analyzed the effects carefully.)

Getting DOWN is the problem... and going down smokebox-first would entail wying or turning the engine after having reached the top of the grade, so the 'logical' answer would be to back down if the trailing-truck centering arrangement and chassis'tender swing permitted it safely.  No crown problems then!

(You could also, I suppose, drop fire to minimum and come down on a combination of air and attached-dynamic braking, but that would not be fair to 1218...)

[friend611]

I certainly welcome any discussion on 1218 and Saluda, even though it is off topic. It relates to a general view of how N&W modern steam handled heavy grades. I plan to make later analysis of how the A performed on grades(noting the testing of an A by the PRR) but that will be examined in a separate thread on the A.
Returning to subject, I have yet to find the grade on the Southern Loops. But 611, with a 4.36 calculated factor of adhesion, never had any trouble with Blue Ridge Grade and only slipped on Christiansburg Mountain if the track was wet or icy. The same with Flat Top Mountain into Bluefield, a grade 1218 had to also "step carefully" if the track was wet or icy. It seems that the J or the A only ran into problems with grades over 2%, being designed to handle the moderate grades on the N&W just fine. But that was one of the issues with 611 and 1218 being asked to operate outside the original N&W for excursion service.
lois

[Overmod]

This is as good a place as any to ask this question - which is now emergent in several places, and it gets the thread back on 611, too...

How are the rods on 611 presently finished after polishing -- I need a definitive answer.  One authority says they were chrome-plated; another says the rods were cadmium-plated at first, but concerns over toxicity would have changed that.  What method is planned for the rods when 611 is fired up again?

[friend611]

I have no news at present, but hope to have some news later. From what I have heard, the rods were painted several years ago, and the paint will have to be stripped off the rods before anything is done. Since the Fire Up 611 committee are busy with fundraising and preliminary arrangements for the restoration, they are unavailable for answering questions at present. So, there is nothing to do but speculate until some information is released. Since we would want the restoration to begin as soon as possible, we would want to support the committee's work and give them time to do their vital work. And this work is important- as it includes negotiations with potential large donors.
lois

[BigJim]

Lois,

You could always ask the N&WHS mailing list what they know about the rods.

[friend611]

I will do so, even though I have received some information from a good source.
lois

[Firelock76]

The last time I was up close and personal to 611 (1994) the rods didn't look plated to me at all.  They looked like polished steel, kept shiny with a LOT of elbow grease.  Not a mirror-like polish mind you, but polished just the same.

I could be wrong though.

I have to echo Lois' earlier comment, I see no reason to run 611, or 1218 for that matter, up or down Saluda Grade, even if it was open.  It's just not worth the risk.  I don't know why they did it in the previous NS excursion days, except for "why the hell not?"

[friend611]

Firelock:
As regards Saluda Grade, if it was open or it was reopened, as I stated before, 611 running on the grade is history. 1218 I don't think they considered running on the grade, though I have not heard any official statement on the matter. So far it seems to be a consensus that even if they manage to get Saluda open, that there will never be any more 611 runs there. Of course, there is no official announcement on this either, but what might be the situation is that there is the understanding that Saluda will never be reopened. Where and how 611 will run will be an issue handled during the restoration and afterward. We will just have to see how it all pans out.
lois

[Firelock76]

Hi Lois!

Yes, we'll just have to wait and see just where Mighty 611's going to run, but I'll tell you something, I wouldn't want to be the ones facing the wrath of Lady Firestorm if "her engine" doesn't come to Richmond!

I shudder to think about it.

Wayne

PS: Per your mention of 611's rods being painted that makes me think even more that they were bare steel during its service and then excursion life.  Without constant TLC those unprotected rods would have rusted. 

[GP40-2]

Firelock76

I have to echo Lois' earlier comment, I see no reason to run 611, or 1218 for that matter, up or down Saluda Grade, even if it was open.  It's just not worth the risk.  I don't know why they did it in the previous NS excursion days, except for "why the hell not?"

Agree with this. I look back at the time I spent with Ross & the 614 on the Chessie Safety Express excursions, and there were times I was wondering what the heck he was thinking. He ran the 614 up Sand Patch, 17 Mile, Cranberry, Streets Run grades, among others totally overloading that engine. He destroyed the booster gears, blew out piston rings, and scarred both the pistons and valves with the absurd superheat the 614 can develop in a hard pull.

If you look at engines like the 611 & 614, the were intended to pull moderate length passenger trains. Probably spend most of their lives putting out no more than 3500 -3600 DBHP, with extra available for acceleration out of a station. The original designers had no expectations of them pulling full tonnage at slow speeds up the like of Saluda or the old B&O grades. Can they do it? Is it impressive? Yes, but at what cost?

[friend611]

I can agree with that viewpoint. 611 was certainly asked for more in excursion service than she was ever asked for in regular service:
1950's: 5-15 cars, moderate grades (the Southern trains may have been somewhat longer)
Excursions: Up to 29 cars on a variety of track and some heavy grades.
I'm surprised 611 didn't have any more mechanical problems than she did, which was almost none.
lois

[daveklepper]

The J's that ran during WWII often pulled troop trains that were even longer than the excursion trains.

[GP40-2]

daveklepper

The J's that ran during WWII often pulled troop trains that were even longer than the excursion trains.

Yes, but not at the same speed, frequency or level as a premier passenger train. Plus, they weren't pulling them up the grades mentioned. On the B&O grades, long troop trains were pulled up those grades by double heading passenger engines, a fast freight engine, or an 2-8-8-4  EM-1 in the final war years.

My point is this: It doesn't take a tremendous amount of HP to keep a normal length passenger train moving at a good clip. Although many 4-8-4s could produce high peak HP, they were not being operated in that zone continuously. If they were, the maintenance costs would be excessively high. Ross, however, did flog the 614 to its max trip after trip, and it is pretty easy to see the cost of that in the 614's increased wear and tear.

[Firelock76]

Ross flogging 614 to the max trip after trip. Hmmmmm...

Somehow I'm reminded of a line from that great aviation film "The Blue Max"  where a cocksure pilot is warned by a colleague,  "...one day you're going to find out you're not as good as you THINK you are!"

Could be just as true for steam engineers as it is for fighter pilots.

[friend611]

A reason the said grades (Saluda, etc.)were on the Southern and off limits to any J until the excursion years. However, Christiansburg Mountain, Blue Ridge and Flat Top Mountain were on the original N&W and certainly saw their share of troop trains in the war years.
I might say that 611's crew and the NS Steam Department in the excursion years seemed to have a respect for her and didn't constantly tax her to her limits. Even though she had to tackle steep grades on occasion and was heavily loaded with 25 car plus passenger trains, from what I have seen, she does not look to be always working at her limits or being abused. She appears to be traveling with a normal sized passenger train, and doesn't seem to be bothered by the extra-long train that she is pulling.
lois

[friend611]

I recently asked Preston Claytor (via email) if 611's side rods had been painted. He replied that they had not.
lois

[friend611]

Now that we know when 611 will be making her departure for restoration, we have a whole new set of topics awaiting us. But for now, 611 will arrive in Spencer (on her birthday, no less) and will wow the crowd as the guest of honor at the "Streamliners at Spencer". However, I do have one update. I had recently found out that her main and eccentric crank rods (will they need to remove any others?) will be taken off to facilitate her move to Spencer.
lois

[Overmod]

Be sure if you pull the mains to make up a set of 'bobweights' equal to the rotating mass of the removed parts, if you don't already have the appropriate parts.  These would not be difficult or onerous to make.

My advice (such as it is) would be to decouple the crosshead and the piston rod, and either remove the pistons/rods or move them to the fronts of the cylinders.  The idea is to permit the rods and crossheads to remain in place for the move without having to worry about cylinder and piston-rod lubrication.

Naturally, the fewer pieces of rodwork taken off, the better the balance of the rotating assemblies, and the faster you can tow without causing the civil people to become 'uncivil'...  ;-}

Having the weights available might also facilitate moves of the locomotive at higher speed whenever she must be operated 'dead-in-train' with rods disassembled.

[Firelock76]

I doubt they'll pull the mains off for the Spencer move, uncoupling the pistons and valves makes a lot more sense with a lot less work to do in the future.

I'm sure they know what they're doing.

[friend611]

What source I have (and it is a important one) states that rods will be taken off. What rods the source did not state, but I assume it to be the main and eccentric rods as that was done with C&O 614 before it was moved to Roanoke. Other arrangements with 611 I do not yet know at this point.
lois

[Overmod]

friend611

What source I have (and it is a important one) states that rods will be taken off.

Eccentric rods for sure; the big end is taken off at the crank, and the rod is then lashed up under the running board.  I believe the combination lever will be disconnected as well (probably taken off completely) as it might try to move the valves itself were the Baker gear to slip or be moved inadvertently.

Valve lubrication is the 'other' big issue on a locomotive with roller-bearing rods; if you can avoid having to use 'special' oils and dispensing means to simulate steam atomization, you're well ahead of the game.

I'd have grave misgivings about removing and reinstalling roller-bearing rods just for a move.  Ross has large amounts of money if something goes wrong and the rollers or races are damaged.  Fire Up 611 doesn't have it to waste.  If they are in fact going to pull the mains be SURE that someone who really knows roller bearing technology and practice -- not just someone who is familiar with other work on a class J -- is physically present at all times, both for removal and reassembly!  (Yes, the T1 people are getting ready to produce replacement Timken rod and axle bearings... but it's better not to have to wait and pay $$$, even if the replacement bearings are M-942 grease lubricated and superfinished for very long life.)

[friend611]

Overmod:
My suggestion is to contact the Fire Up 611 committee directly for details on this matter. The email contacts should be found on the Fire Up 611 website.
lois

[friend611]

Haven't heard anything more about the rods at present, but will provide an update when I find out more information. However, I will note that the move will take five days, leaving the VMT on May 24 and making the grand entrance into Spencer on May 29 (her 64th birthday). I suppose the route to be the same as that on the last run in December 1994, but in reverse order. That would be east from Roanoke to Lynchburg on the N&W, then south to Spencer on the Southern.
lois

[BigJim]

friend611

From what I have heard, the rods were painted several years ago, and the paint will have to be stripped off the rods before anything is done.

Lois,
I was down at VMT today and the rods definitely are painted. However, I don't think they ran this way in service.

[friend611]

In the meanwhile, preparations are being made for the move of 611. I do not know at present what these preparations are, but we can be assured that whatever they are, our lady will soon be moving out and within days, will be restored to operation.
lois