N&W Class J

[friend611]

This is a series of discussions on the N&W class J locomotive, pending the upcoming restoration of 611.
The first item of discussion is the top speed attainable by the J's. The J's were engineered for speeds up to 140 mph, but they were never tested to determine their top speed. The fastest I have information on that a J has ever gone is 115 mph, and they ran regularly at 110 mph. However, the N&W was not particularly a high-speed railroad, though they had the stretch of straight track from Suffolk to Petersburg where most of the high speed operation occurred. At present, the top speed attainable by the J's is up to speculation.
lois
the friend of 611

[Firelock76]

Lois, you've pretty much nailed it.  It was on the "racetrack"  between Petersburg and Suffolk that a J got up to 115 miles-per-hour for a time before the engineer decided to play it conservative and throttled down.  So we do know that much.

Theoretically they certainly could go up to 140, I suppose the math supported it, but whether it was wise to run them that fast is debateable.  Personally I don't think so.  What for?  Even running 100 mph on a regular basis may have been unwise.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

That being said, I would have loved to have been there for the ride!  Wow!

One thing's for certain, when 611 comes back they'll never push it to the "century mark", it's just too risky for such an irreplaceable object.   I wouldn't push it that hard, as much as I'd love to.

[friend611]

According to what records I have, the fastest I have record of 611 going during her excursion career is around 80 mph. At present, no one has come forward to say anything different, and I'm perfectly comfortable with waiting until someone has a record of higher speed attained during that time. As for the present, I don't know how fast they'll allow her to go. Having ridden behind 630 when the speed slightly went over the original 40 mph speed limit, I suppose occasional higher speeds may be allowed with 611. But it is still early in the restoration process, and operation details are apparently set aside until the restoration is taken care of.
lois
the friend of 611

[Firelock76]

Hi Lois!  611 got up to 80 during her excursion career?  I didn't know that.  Mind you, we didn't ride until after the Dismal Swamp wreck and the speed limit was reduced to 40 mph.

Still, riding behind 611 at 80 mph.  That must have been a gas!

[friend611]

I'd like for someone to come forward with some estimates on how fast 611 ran during her excursion career. However, I do know that during the ceremony to make 611 a National Mechanical Engineering Landmark in 1984, Bob Claytor noted that he hadn't asked her to go at 100 mph, but felt she could attain that speed if necessary. I will note that Mr. Claytor, when he ran her, liked to run fast, so much that I call the rear notch on 611's throttle the "Claytor notch".
lois
the friend of 611

[friend611]

However, there were occasions when after the 40 mph speed limit was established, that 611 was allowed to exceed the limit. One of these was on one of her last runs, when she was allowed to attain 73 mph. On this and similar occasions, it was the train being behind schedule that allowed an exception to be made with the speed limit. lois

[Firelock76]

Hmmmmm, the "Claytor Notch."   Well, the boss can do whatever he likes, can't he? 

[friend611]

As was said on the video "Queen of the Fleet" when Mr. Claytor had 611 at 78 mph (above the 60 mph track speed on the portion of track between Continental and Fort Wayne on the former NKP) "Who's going to tell the boss to slow down?"
lois

[samfp1943]

friend611

As was said on the video "Queen of the Fleet" when Mr. Claytor had 611 at 78 mph (above the 60 mph track speed on the portion of track between Continental and Fort Wayne on the former NKP) "Who's going to tell the boss to slow down?"
lois

The only time I ever saw her "on her knees" in Oct of 1992;  on Saluda Grade.

  The other chases, she seems to be an easy steamer, and do not think that they had ever taxed her abilities with a train.   Often wondered how much tonnage 611 could handle if they put her on a freight.  Id think 611 was every bit as strong at the #844, if not more so.

[friend611]

The most I have heard of her pulling was the 29 passenger cars I saw her handling on Christiansburg Mountain during the side by side runs with 1218 during the 1987 NRHS convention. That leads me to believe she is capable of pulling 30 passenger cars, she regularly pulled 25 or more cars in excursion service. Now, she might not be asked to pull so many, as there might not be that many coaches available, as well as other changes that I need not go into. As for freight trains, a J once pulled 100 hoppers. 611 seems only to be given short freight consists on ferry runs in excursion service, and there seems not to be any interest in taxing her abilities in that regard.
lois

[Overmod]

Firelock76

... It was on the "racetrack"  between Petersburg and Suffolk that a J got up to 115 miles-per-hour for a time before the engineer decided to play it conservative and throttled down.  So we do know that much.

The fastest authenticated speed is that achieved in the PRR testing, a shade over 113 mph.  It should be noted that this resulted in fairly prompt failure of a sort that would be difficult to avoid in normal operation, to wit valve lubrication. Note that there is a nontrivial difference between 113 and 115 mph; it isn't a matter of 'just a little more throttle and we'd have gotten there...' or of engineers possessed of secret go-fast git-r-dun lore.  Is there an objective source for this 'racetrack' speed?

Practical maximum 'sustainable' road speed would be considerably less, but might still have been 100 mph or even a bit over.  I base this partly on the AAR rotational-speed recommendations of the time, which contain a 504 rpm maximum rotational speed criterion.  This isn't really the question on N&W, though.  The 100 mph capability was intended more as 'dash' (for the short sections where high speed was appropriate or even achievable, and for making up time where permissible).  Designing for this represented, in my opinion, very good common sense.  In this light, the decision to go to an overall stronger main-rod configuration (eliminating that long pin on #4 pair) even if it compromised ultimate speed a few mph would be sensible; even more sensible was the decision not to make the modification until absolutely required...

Theoretically they certainly could go up to 140, I suppose the math supported it

You will have to show me that math.

AAR 'maximum speed' (at 504 rpm) would be right at 105 mph.  The PRR test had exceeded 540 rpm, which for 70" drivers with conventional cast spoke centers seems extreme.  Machinery speed for a nominal 140 mph could be said to be in the realm of science fiction -- except that's not science fiction, it's fantasy.

...but whether it was wise to run them that fast is debateable.  Personally I don't think so.  What for?  Even running 100 mph on a regular basis may have been unwise.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

The range of rotational speed Juniatha quoted, and the corresponding track speeds, represent perfectly achievable "continuous" performance, given the sophistication of the balance method.  I see nothing inherently disastrous in running at the AAR theoretical maximum; certainly the things that would fail at that speed were not de facto related to dynamic augment concerns. 

The thing to watch probably would have been pin fractures (main and "4), although you would have to correlate this with some percentage of fast running (which at this point is essentially impossible to determine with any kind of meaningful statistical significance) to determine any causation attributable to 'overspeed'.

It might be fun to see what a J equipped with disc center(s) and full dynamic balance, poppet valves, and somewhat better suspension and snubbing might have been able to achieve.  But as Firelock noted, there is little point in such an exercise: if there were any need for such a locomotive on N&W, Glaze et al. would have used higher drivers, shorter stroke, better valves and front-end nozzling, and so forth to achieve it.  The result on boiler size poses an interesting question: where would steam mass flow 'balance' on the revised design?  It would certainly have remained capable of more steam generation than the PRR T1 boiler...

[friend611]

The only time when 611 ran with only a few cars was on Saluda Grade, where she took only four or five cars up the grade, the rest being sent up behind diesels. The reason being that there was concern what the combined tractive effort of 611 and the diesels might do to the drawbars and couplers of some of the passenger cars. As for the first trip in 1992, she did have some trouble, but was able to restart and conquer the grade after a quick check of the sand and other things. Now that's a job that would have required some coaxing, if you know what I mean.
lois

[friend611]

And of course, there is my new avatar, but we have more important business at hand.
lois

[Firelock76]

Where'd I get the 115 mile-per-hour figure?  From a Mike's Train House "O"  Gauge catalog!  Hey, Mike doesn't lie about that stuff!

Only those HO weirdos lie about that stuff!

[friend611]

Actually, if no one was able to understand my previous post, I meant by coaxing on Saluda Grade the vocal kind, though I have yet to see a crew speak to a steam locomotive in that way. Though, with the stress of getting the locomotive up the grade, any kind of assistance was possible. However, I do know that crews do speak to a steam locomotive in a nonvocal way, though the locomotive speaks in a audible manner. It is this audible communication by the locomotive, as well as other details, which makes the steam locomotive the most humanlike of all machines.
lois

[Firelock76]

"The most humanlike of machines."  That pretty much says it Lois, altho' I consider them more like big friendly dogs.

Forget computers, artificial intelligence, nanotechnology and all the rest.  The closest God has let man come to creating life has been the steam locomotive.

[friend611]

Apparently, Bob Claytor felt the same way. I don't remember his exact words, but he considered 611 practically human and as a friend. With that, I can't wait to see what 611 is like when she is running!
lois

[friend611]

Of course it would be interesting to get attention from a 300 ton "puppy".
lois

[friend611]

"If you abuse her, she will scream.
Slipping wheels is not a good thing to do, and she will tell you that right away."
Bob Claytor, during the ceremony to make 611 a National Mechanical Engineering Landmark in 1984.
Mr.Claytor certainly had no doubt about her abilities. And he seemed to be anxious to show the world what she could do.
lois

[samfp1943]

Just a question.. I'm curious about. 

I have been fortunate enough to see both the 611 and U.P. 844 run. 

Both amazing machines. But i do not think I have ever seen side by side statistical comparisons. 

How do these two 4-8-4's compare?  Power, weight, Potential speed, etc.

  Thanks, in advance.

[friend611]

I do not have any information on 844, but here is some information on 611:
Built Roanoke Shops, May 1950, Builder number 388
80,000 lb. Estimated tractive effort, 5100 estimated HP, maybe up to 5300 HP. Capable of pulling up to 29 passenger cars on heavy grade (Christiansburg Mountain) could possibly start 30 cars though, to my knowledge, this has not been done. Engine weight 494,000 lb. Roller bearings on engine and tender axles as well as roller bearing side rods and needle roller bearings on Baker valve gear. Capable of speeds up to 115 mph, engineered for 140 mph but top speed not tested. Modernized with 26L brakes and MU capabilities.
lois

[friend611]

I am certain someone here can give you the comparative information on 844.
lois

[selector]

You can compare a wide range of locomotives based on type by going to www.steamlocomotive.com and using the drop-down menu under "wheel types".  When the page opens, look for the list of hypered names of railroads and simply click on one of them to find the specs for their particular versions.

[Leo_Ames]

Will they be keeping the sealed beam headlight on the 611? It just never looked right and other operators haven't felt the need to make such a noticeable modification for modernism including Union Pacific.

[friend611]

The sealed beam headlight will have to be reused, unfortunately. It is requested because of the requirements for light at night, which is felt the single headlight cannot provide. Besides, there is other steam operators having to use the twin headlight. 765 has been using one for at least a year, and 4501 will have one when she comes out of the shop. This might be new FRA requirements, though I am not certain on that point. Even though it is difficult for the fans who want to keep the traditional look of the locomotives, there is the safety issue for running at night. I will allow you to discuss this matter in further detail.
lois

[K4sPRR]

friend611

there is the safety issue for running at night

Rich Melvin in June of 2012 confirmed Lois' statement when questioned about the light on the 765, he said they have to see at night and the twin headlight is much better than the single.   

[Firelock76]

So long as 611 runs free again, who cares what kind of headlight it's got?

They could put ditchlights on it as well for all I care.  Whatever it takes to get the "Thoroughbred of steam, born to run, born to be free..."  back on the road.

[friend611]

I have information that 630 may be retrofitted with this type of headlight as well, so this is not just for large locomotives.
If 1218 is restored, I have to wonder about the status the headlight as I do not know if its twin headlight still exists.
lois

[Leo_Ames]

Must be a Norfolk Southern deal. No other operators seem to have done as such to the best of my knowledge over the last 30 years. 

Firelock76

So long as 611 runs free again, who cares what kind of headlight it's got?

Honestly, I hate it when someone does that. :)

When something minor is mentioned in the context of something so great such as the operating restoration of the 611, it goes without saying that it's not a significant issue. It's pure curiosity without any criticism intended towards those behind this impressive project. 

[friend611]

Fortunately, there's no mention of any ditch lights in the present plan for restoration of 611. Though she will be given a event recorder and a few other details. One thing she will not need is MU equipment. She was equipped for MU during the first restoration. Though when using MU, she could run diesels along with her, except for the dynamic brakes. Then, a man had to ride in one of the diesels to operate the dynamic brakes. And, as we know, she could run the diesels, but it was impossible for them to run her. And it's better that way, as far as we are concerned.
lois