The Swiss railroads sure are steep.
I find it interesting that largely no geared steam other than cog locomotives were used. Seems a lot like they would have been good for the branches.
Note.that the Gothard is a single-speed railroad with everthing running at the same speed, freights, high-speed passenger, etc. And steam
Firelock76 Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking!
Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking!
And 568, the one on the second movie is a Philly child, born in BLW
Juniatha Hi folks , The videos I think once again make blatantly clear why Swiss railways did electrify early on : even with two Mikados heading the train of 13 coaches of some 50 t each doesn’t seem to get above some medium speed ! Theoretically these two – ex SNCF 141.R.1244 plus lighter ex DB 41 018 – should combine better than 5000 ihp around some 40 to 60 mph , yet I doubt if they ever got anywhere close to it on this trip , in spite of some energetic stack sounds and ‘open flame show’ by the US built Mike and in spite of a lot of dark smoke production by both engines … The shiny finish sure is a show of its own and they finally got that engine a proper American whistle – yet the valve gear is not all that well tuned , there is a definite limping in the 4/4 rhythm of the exhaust . Originally ‘les Americaines’ had to live with that squeaking high pitched whistle generally used on French steam . Had they used a typical American deep tone steam loco whistle an average car driver somewhere in rural France upon hearing it when nearing a railroad crossing would have believed to be dreaming because there couldn’t be a deep sea vessel around there . On the ex DB 41 – reboilered oilfired version as they were among the small flock of very last steam ending the era in 1977 on the Emsland line – the much deeper throated and softer sounding exhaust is notable , as well as some – light – rod clanking as so habitual with German two cylinder steam ; notable too , the rather more delicate yet more ‘traditional’ design of vehicle structure and drive mechanism with spoked wheels and plain bearing rods with adjustable plain big end bearing on main rod . The 41’s whistle still is the one given to the DB reboilered engines which was somewhat lighter sounding than the standard two tone whistle of the Wagner standard type engines – btw Wagner : Richard-Paul , head of locomotive design at the DR HQ , not Richard Wagner , the composer of some music pieces leaning very ‘heavily’ into mystifying and romanticizing fields . About the second ‘Americaine’ , 141.R.568 : the appearance is more ‘authentic’ in non-glossy , somewhat dulled black , however the setting of valve gear is better – we take from it : never shine up a steam locomotive all too much , obviously it’s not good for valve timing – *gee* . Again they did away with the squeaking sound , yet they overdid it a bit , as to my liking , although the sound is reminiscent of some of the *really* large American Super Power steam . Again we see : even with train cut to but four cars , the engine although definitely speaking up does not rise into upper speed range , although we have to consider the locations chosen may have been on ramp sections preferably . Yet , for me – and you know my heart is with steam – it tells the old story again of electrics dwarfing steam power output next to ridiculous where-ever real mountains only just loom in the distance . Intriguingly , they must have somewhat modified draughting arrangement in #568 for the sound is deeper and lacks the US / 141.R typical sharpness of overtones . One thing I’m sorry to see again are cylinder drain valves not fully operating correctly , more less on *all* the featured Mikados . With due respect for voluntary efforts invested in spare time , in view of major importance of keeping piston clearance volume *clear* of water – non compressible , mind it – it is nothing less than deplorable this sort of malfunction should at all be allowed to continue in preserved engines supposed to continue vastly beyond their designed working life span . On both 141.R neither did valves all seem to open evenly and properly , nor did they close completely , or did not do so at a time . With the DB reboilered 41 class , the small diameter boiler has always had a more pronounced tendency to priming than average German standard steam – and that wasn’t free of that sort of problem in the presence of water treatment . Although there have been rather individual attempts made , notably in the US , in general protection of the steam locomotive’s engine unit from aborting effects of priming / water carry-over certainly was one of the major points of steam loco traction never adequately solved – neither by design nor by putting water treatment to the point continuously and reliably . Nice videos for sure and good luck to the preservation crews ! Regards Juniatha
Hi folks ,
The videos I think once again make blatantly clear why Swiss railways did electrify early on : even with two Mikados heading the train of 13 coaches of some 50 t each doesn’t seem to get above some medium speed ! Theoretically these two – ex SNCF 141.R.1244 plus lighter ex DB 41 018 – should combine better than 5000 ihp around some 40 to 60 mph , yet I doubt if they ever got anywhere close to it on this trip , in spite of some energetic stack sounds and ‘open flame show’ by the US built Mike and in spite of a lot of dark smoke production by both engines …
The shiny finish sure is a show of its own and they finally got that engine a proper American whistle – yet the valve gear is not all that well tuned , there is a definite limping in the 4/4 rhythm of the exhaust . Originally ‘les Americaines’ had to live with that squeaking high pitched whistle generally used on French steam . Had they used a typical American deep tone steam loco whistle an average car driver somewhere in rural France upon hearing it when nearing a railroad crossing would have believed to be dreaming because there couldn’t be a deep sea vessel around there .
On the ex DB 41 – reboilered oilfired version as they were among the small flock of very last steam ending the era in 1977 on the Emsland line – the much deeper throated and softer sounding exhaust is notable , as well as some – light – rod clanking as so habitual with German two cylinder steam ; notable too , the rather more delicate yet more ‘traditional’ design of vehicle structure and drive mechanism with spoked wheels and plain bearing rods with adjustable plain big end bearing on main rod .
The 41’s whistle still is the one given to the DB reboilered engines which was somewhat lighter sounding than the standard two tone whistle of the Wagner standard type engines – btw Wagner : Richard-Paul , head of locomotive design at the DR HQ , not Richard Wagner , the composer of some music pieces leaning very ‘heavily’ into mystifying and romanticizing fields .
About the second ‘Americaine’ , 141.R.568 : the appearance is more ‘authentic’ in non-glossy , somewhat dulled black , however the setting of valve gear is better – we take from it : never shine up a steam locomotive all too much , obviously it’s not good for valve timing – *gee* .
Again they did away with the squeaking sound , yet they overdid it a bit , as to my liking , although the sound is reminiscent of some of the *really* large American Super Power steam . Again we see : even with train cut to but four cars , the engine although definitely speaking up does not rise into upper speed range , although we have to consider the locations chosen may have been on ramp sections preferably . Yet , for me – and you know my heart is with steam – it tells the old story again of electrics dwarfing steam power output next to ridiculous where-ever real mountains only just loom in the distance .
Intriguingly , they must have somewhat modified draughting arrangement in #568 for the sound is deeper and lacks the US / 141.R typical sharpness of overtones .
One thing I’m sorry to see again are cylinder drain valves not fully operating correctly , more less on *all* the featured Mikados . With due respect for voluntary efforts invested in spare time , in view of major importance of keeping piston clearance volume *clear* of water – non compressible , mind it – it is nothing less than deplorable this sort of malfunction should at all be allowed to continue in preserved engines supposed to continue vastly beyond their designed working life span . On both 141.R neither did valves all seem to open evenly and properly , nor did they close completely , or did not do so at a time . With the DB reboilered 41 class , the small diameter boiler has always had a more pronounced tendency to priming than average German standard steam – and that wasn’t free of that sort of problem in the presence of water treatment .
Although there have been rather individual attempts made , notably in the US , in general protection of the steam locomotive’s engine unit from aborting effects of priming / water carry-over certainly was one of the major points of steam loco traction never adequately solved – neither by design nor by putting water treatment to the point continuously and reliably .
Nice videos for sure and good luck to the preservation crews !
Regards
Juniatha
In the first case, despite some grades (I would say that in some sections these might be in the vicinity of 1,7 to 2%), the train runs at medium speed due to the fact of the german mike being limited to 90 Kmhr (56 Mph). The second case - the Gothardbahn - is a completely different case, with grades that in some point reach 2,6 and even 2,7%. If even the electrics get a hard time going thru the passes, one can imagine steam thru it. The guys of the Swiss Federal Railways are really brave allowing sometheing rather than electric tru the tough ramps
I have no argument about Wayne being right, the "flip side" comment was that the abundant Swiss hydro resources made electricity very inexpensive, i.e. the low power cost was the carrot and the lack of coal was the stick for the Swiss electrification program. Norway and Sweden's electrification programs had similar incentives.
- Erik
Hi Wayne and Erik
You are both correct – the Swiss lacked coal and developed generating electricity from hydro power stations . On the other hand , railway electrification plans greatly pushed development of hydro power electric network . As early as in the 1920s they gave up building steam locomotives just a couple of years after having started electric traction sections and although early electric locomotives still were rather clumsy affairs they shaped up rapidly and began to show their vast development potential . Early successful and already quite powerful electric loco types incorporated the Lötschberg Simplon Line 2-10-2 – which can be so classified because they had steam-typical Pony trucks both ends with coupled axles in a rigid frame in between , powered by a huge centrally mounted motor .
Btw , how much better steam fared in the flatlands – due to inherently sluggish starting contrasting with considerably living up at higher speeds – can be seen here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW2sV3hWu0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW2sV3hWu0
The rather meditative music played in the beginning does not fully transmit the feeling I guess however after some minutes the first real sounds are to be heard . Spend an hour watching this compilation of scenes from the last years of Hamburg-Altona based 012 oilfired three cylinder Pacifics storming over the Marsch-Bahn on their way to Westerland ( Marsch : ger for flat pastures near the sea which may get flooded if a North-Western storm gathers enough momentum out on the North Sea ; Bahn : ger for railway line )
Although clearly these Pacifics were badly neglected by that time , they were run professionally and extended flat out which – concluding from performance data – must have made them largely exceed their 2500 ihp nominal power output rate in daily traffic , rather sustaining some 3000 – 3300 during acceleration in the upper speed range with 12 to 15 coaches behind the tender .
The sound is not always in tune with pictures , in some cases sound and film seem to have been compiled from different repetitions of the same scene in daily traffic – yet it allows you to hear the thrilling sound of these engines – valve gear timing being pretty off point in some engines .
Hi Erik!
Oh yeah, I know about the Swiss hydroelectric capacities. I'd heard they started to develop the same do to the coal problem.
Wayne
Wayne,
You're forgetting the flip side - the Swiss have very abundant hydroelectric reserves.
Hi Juniatha!
It goes without saying we appreciate your insights on European steam, after all, you're there and we're not.
Just a couple of points:
You're probably right on those cylinder cocks, but usually when I see a steam engine on an excursion run with its cocks open and smoking like crazy I can't help but think the engine crew are "hamming" it up, so to speak, you know, putting on a show for the spectators, making the engine all smoky and steamy for the cameras. Engine crews do it here in the US, I'd imagine they'd do the same in Europe.
A question on Swiss electrification: Aside from the traction advantages, didn't the Swiss start electrifying years ago do to the lack of domestic coal, and quality coal at that?
Firelock76 So, it's a German locomotive with an American southern accent! Kool! Yep, and the leading engine, altough born in the american continent, it 'speaks' french with a quebequois accent, since it was 'born' in Montréal. Sacré Calice !! Here's a little about SNCF's141R's : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_141R
So, it's a German locomotive with an American southern accent! Kool!
Yep, and the leading engine, altough born in the american continent, it 'speaks' french with a quebequois accent, since it was 'born' in Montréal. Sacré Calice !!
Here's a little about SNCF's141R's : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_141R
Actually, the second engine is a german class 41 mike. The wistle, on all german steam engines I know, sounds the same 'hüüüü'. I guess they used it, because their ideia of standartization was quite advanced, to the point that even some parts were interchangeable with other types of locomotives.
Here's a little story about it :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRB_Class_41
No, the Class J had what's been referred to as a "steamboat" whistle, mulit-toned and majestic. Having ridden behind the Mighty 611 I've heard it, and it doesn't sound like the single tone whistle the second locomotive's got in Mario's video. Hearing that second engines whistle I thought "Wow! It sounds like Mighty 1218!"
Now, there's some in the South who liked the "hooter" whistle on the Class A's, said there was nothing like hearing the sound of one working it's way up a hollow on a cold, snowy night. It does have a bit of a haunting quality to it given the right circumstances.
Firelock76However, I was struck by how much the whistle on the second locomotive sounded like a Norfolk and Western "hooter" whistle, the type that was installed on the Class A's.
You mean class J's, don't you?
Class A had that awful freight whistle, the one that led to the joshing from the Southern Railway people that Ed King described --- it shouldn't have been necessary for the N&W men to have to point out that it wasn't the whistle, it was the locomotive under it that counted...
(I will grant you that the awful overblowing harmonics I hear on that second locomotive's whistle are indeed a bit reminiscent of a class A -- but not I think intentionally, and not in a particularly good way.)
I'm a big fan of the class A, but my respect does NOT extend to the whistle, any more than it does to the banshee that was standard on many classes of PRR freight power. (I note how quickly the chime whistles made it to surviving locomotives as larger numbers of passenger locomotives began to go to scrap in the '40s... sure wish PRR had sent some of them to the operation in the South so that the As could have had a real voice! ... ) <ducks for cover> ;-}
Fascinating videos Mario! I can certainly see the family resemblance to American locomotives with the first "Mike", the second not so much. However, I was struck by how much the whistle on the second locomotive sounded like a Norfolk and Western "hooter" whistle, the type that was installed on the Class A's. That engine sounded like it would have been more at home in the mountains of Virginia than the mountains of Switzerland.
Thanks for posting!
Nice!! Thank you.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Hello all ;
Here are some videos depictiing the course of some special steam trains in Switzerland. And if, in the movies, the engines look like familiar, it's because they were 'Born in the USA'
Enjoy
watch?v=eAWSwLiReE8
watch?v=9qPtr8Yt5Ek
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