blue streak 1 5. Appeared that the signal system used inductors much like the ATS system in the USA. They appeared to be both in center of track and on left side ? Both steamers appeared to have pickups mounted near the trailing engine truck on left side but maybe one engine on right side?
5. Appeared that the signal system used inductors much like the ATS system in the USA. They appeared to be both in center of track and on left side ? Both steamers appeared to have pickups mounted near the trailing engine truck on left side but maybe one engine on right side?
Maybe those are the antennae for the local Integra Signum cab signal system, wich is not much different from a classic US ATS. Probably its use is mandatory, therefore it was installed in order to make the circulation of the engines compatible with the local rules
Just watched the videos and the comments. I had the same question about the cylinder cocks that "J" had and thought that maybe the engines were operating with saturated steam which might have put water in the cylinders each stroke instead of superheated steam? With the cocks open even on open field running that was my first thought. As one who watched many trips of N&W 611 several thoughts came to mind about these locos pictured
1. Cylinder cocks ?
2. Valve gear ?
3. no proper synchronizing ?
4. Large amounts of smoke at all times to make one wonder quality of coal and / or not complete burning. No self respecting " N&W J " would do that ?
Switzerland is already a railfan heaven, for electric railfans and streetcar fans particularly. Too add steam, well WOW!!!is
A popular joke among Israelis: A group from his synagogue visited a Reform Rabbi who retired to Jerusalem. They asked: Rabbi, you played golf on Saturday afternoon, ate all kinds of food, drove on Saturdya, what's with this change? Now you keep Kosher, observe an Orthodox Sabbath, wear a yarmulke, what happened? The former Reform Rabbi answered: "Well, if I had moved to Switzerland, I would have become an expert at skiing. Now we will have to change that to railfanning.
Maybe Dave's on to something the Swiss Tourist Board should utilize as a catch phrase:
"Switzerland! Come for the chocolate, stay for the trains!"
Dave ,
I'd doubt it -
yes , pondering it I really I doubt it .
add.:
However -
if we could get Corinna* interested in switching from horse breeding to iron horses ..
Nontheless ..
regards
Juniatha
* Corinna who ?
Well , Corinna married with Michele Scumacceroni ..
( who-the-heck is .. -> Michael Schumacher , at the height of his F1 career driving for Ferrari , winning championship seven times in total )
There may be people, yes there will be people, who move to Switaerland just to ride six days a week forever.
(They may have to return to the country of citizenship to have their tourist visas renewed every six months or whatever the Swiss require.)
I guess after some months of a daily service interested folk will become so thinned you could advertise cab rides on light engine runs . I think that would also deal with the up-hill steam speed aspect once and for all !
Btw , I'd like a ticket to (cab-)ride , then - *gee*
With the Base Tunnel opening soon, it is assumed that only local passenger trains will use the switchbacks. So, there may be capacity for steam!
Correct, electric power input from the third rail or catenary. But nothing wrong with double-headed 2-8-2's OR 4-8-2's racing up Gothard with only four cars. Why not? Price the tickets appropriately and run daily service for the mobs that want to ride!
Juniatha b-t-w what would be equivalent to steam ihp output in an electric ?
b-t-w what would be equivalent to steam ihp output in an electric ?
The power at the current collectors (pantograph, third rail shoe or trolley wheel/shoe)?
- Erik
Hi Juniatha!
I wasn't sure of what you were talking about concerning the video of 18 316, I was so captivated by the "Christmas Card" image of steam in the snow.
So I went full-screen and HOLY JEEZ! NOW I see! Running that locomotive without the sheet metal covers on the cylinder and piston units, and rusting them up as well!
You're good. At least your eyes are better than mine. Do yourself a favor, don't get old!
Wayne
PS: Interesting story of how those amateurs were running, or attempting to run that steam locomotive. I can't help but think if there was an old-time official of the old Reichsbahn around someone would have gotten a good butt-kicking! "Dummkopfen!!! Was ist los mit sie?"
Juniatha Oh , Jeezus - I hope not ! Quite certainly I'm not going to try and tell any of them anything . Why , years ago I was visiting the crowded footplate of one preserved standard type engine the number of which I have just presently forgotten and I couldn't help remarking to the driver about the glass being 1/1 up with water ( supposed to be around 1/2 glass ) and he 'explained' that's the way it's supposed to be ; a bit later then , in my typical American optimism I *still* remarked upon the irregular pounding of their compound air pump ( the DR double shaft compound pump tended to 'kick back' when valve control had become badly worn ) and was told that , too , was supposed to be so . Needless to say , when starting that not-too-heavy train with cylinder cocks kept firmly cocks closed there was a sooty-black rain of water coming down on spectators and the exhaust beats were muffled low and blurred - cocks opened only after all these deplorable things had already happened and the engine was about wading her way out this watery departure . However : that's the way it had to be - and so I said : not for me !
Oh , Jeezus - I hope not ! Quite certainly I'm not going to try and tell any of them anything . Why , years ago I was visiting the crowded footplate of one preserved standard type engine the number of which I have just presently forgotten and I couldn't help remarking to the driver about the glass being 1/1 up with water ( supposed to be around 1/2 glass ) and he 'explained' that's the way it's supposed to be ; a bit later then , in my typical American optimism I *still* remarked upon the irregular pounding of their compound air pump ( the DR double shaft compound pump tended to 'kick back' when valve control had become badly worn ) and was told that , too , was supposed to be so . Needless to say , when starting that not-too-heavy train with cylinder cocks kept firmly cocks closed there was a sooty-black rain of water coming down on spectators and the exhaust beats were muffled low and blurred - cocks opened only after all these deplorable things had already happened and the engine was about wading her way out this watery departure .
However : that's the way it had to be - and so I said : not for me !
Great anecdote and good advice!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
>> And I hope thay have Juniatha check the drain valves ..<<
Steam to climb Gotthard electric pace :
Very hard to do , Dave , look : even if two Mikes add up to 5000 ihp and euphemistically we'd take that for the output ( b-t-w what would be equivalent to steam ihp output in an electric ? ) of an elderly Re 4/4 II ( really , the series II first built in 1964 have 4700 kW already , i e 6300 hp , rounded ) , then we have an electric of 80 t [metric] against the two Mikes of some 200 t extra mass all by their own incl tenders ! Impact of this disadvantage , unfortunately increases as the train mass proper is being cut down : for instance on a twelve coaches train , some 600 t , that extra mass represents some 33 % increase of total train mass ex adhesion mass ; on a four coaches train of some 200 t it means plain doubling the towed mass ex adhesion mass ! In other words , with a light 4 coaches train to perform like one Re 4/4 II up-hill a steep grading like the Gotthard’s , the two Mikes would need to put up twice the power total at drawbar as that single electric – by far way-out impossible ! Now , what about that twelve coaches train ? Since remarkable enough starting t.e. of the Re 4/4 II at 255 kN yet is not up to the Mikes combined t.e. of 2 x 80 t adhesion mass ( t.e. with sound mechanical condition provided ! ) , there is some advantage for the steam doubleheader at starting ; however as t.e. of each the Mikes progressively deflate with speed rising , with the ~ 200 t extra locomotive non-adhesion mass performance succumbs pretty quickly towards a point where power output / power demand coefficient falls below that of the Re 4/4 II on the same train .
So , three Mikes on four coaches ? Well , someone would install an Allison V12 in a 1970s Camaro … no , let’s not be kidding …
The Austrian way to do it back in the 80s was to let venerable old Gölsdorf 310.23 walk up the Semmering leisurely at an amazing pace .. amazing until you heard the ‘electric colleague’ at the back end humming by , shoving hard pressing buffers all-through the train - *g* !
Regards
edit :
text specified in some wordings
Mario ,
it's nothing but sad to see what happens with the IVh Pacific . I would never have thought of it , yet concluding from all I heard and see - again in this video - the only thing that can be said is , clearly this locomotive is beyond scope of skills of preservers . Just the idea of running a compound engine without cylinder cladding is mindboggling .. and that in winter weather ! looks like they wanted to avoid condensing water in cylinders by rather having ice ?
18 201 is likely doing ~120 km/h rather than 140 if the video is 1:1 speed as I saw it and that might just have been due to line speed limit . Yet , as I understand there is a policy not to extend the engine beyond pretty easy going because of these one-off-a-kind wheels , rods , cylinders and I think that's wise enough - as my saying goes , this engine doesn't have to prove anything today . Although back when visiting the 150 years of Austrian railways with my parents I was only 11 and thus lack the more technical details , I still memorize 18 201 running 160 km/h on the return to Vienna in summer 1987 : without fuss , absolutely easy , absolutely steady , like on asking it could have been done regularly - and I remember the old Saxon driver answering questions in Vienna so placidly and with a wise smile in his round 'full moon' face - Reinhard Rindelhardt , as I was told much later .
I accept the correction on the speed of the uphill climb of the steam-hauled special on the Gothard. Still. I hope someday a sfeam special, probably doubl-headed, with the right power-to-load ratio is run up the Gothard with speed to match the regular trains, and I hope I get to either watch or ride it! And I hope thay have Juniatha check the drain valves and valve motion in general to insure all 100% square.
By the way, since everyone talks about cold, and also steamrs, found a video of 18 316, 'out in the cold'. Here it is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTjVtcajgMg
On the other hand, found also some vignettes of 18 201, wich is known to be the world's fastest steam engine in operational condition (although in this movie I doubt that it would be doing more than 140 Kmhr, because of the cars being hauled, former DDR's 'Deutsche Reischbahn')
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpe8I2ZAOW8
Hope everyone is not very frosted, because I know not everyone can be as lucky as me (my country & town must be one of the very few places in europe with temperatures of a little more than 10 celsius)
Kind regards
M
Oh hi Overmod
deep in the frost , too ?
I added some sonds of steam in summer time when the weather was fine ...
= J =
JuniathaPlay loud !
Here, coming off a 3-degree-Fahrenheit morning: AMEN, and thank you!
(And yes, expectantly awaiting the 'long tall Sally' 6-4-4-6 layout...)
O-M-G this is an awful winter blizzard !
My heart is with those suffering in the bitter frost !
Good luck to everyone may springtime come early this year to save you !
Best wishes to those caught in the midst of this hard winter !
Mmmh - oh , and b-t-w :
here is a nice steam special up-ramp sound recording of preserved four cylinder compound Baden IVh Pacific , restored just recently before this recording and already ailing again ( that's not to criticize the IVh class but the rebuilding / running job ) with pushing three cylinder Decapod 44 1093 "doing all the work" as the webmaster wrote - see ( or hear )
http://www.dampfsound.de/18_316/18_316.html
scroll down to sound recordings , choose first one , cd054-07 , 18 316 “defekt” mit Sonderzug in der Steigung hinter Gräfenrode, Schub: 44 1093 (macht die ganze Arbeit allein).
What steam could do on moderate grades you may hear at
http://www.dampfsound.de/01_10/01_10-sound/01_10-sound.html
then click on right side "sounds" , scroll down to recordings
cl11-08 Mitfahrt: 01 1102 D 284 bergauf vor Kirchhain röhrend [ 01-10 Pacific heading D 284 on the rising grade approaching Kirchhain , roaring ] this was on ~ 1.0 % up and the express usually had some 12 coaches ( ~ 600 t )
wncd-19 unbekannte 01.10 mit D 532 in voller Fahrt Durchfahrt Vaale July 25 1972 [01-10 Pacific # unknown on D 532 passing Vaale at speed] this was on the ~ 0.5 % rising grade from flat land level to the high railway bridge crossing the North / Eastern Sea channel , rail level some 140 ft above ground ; recording from the last summer working of 012s on the Hamburg - Westerland line .
There is an informative site about construction of the Hochdonner high bridge at
http://www.dithmarschen-wiki.de/Bau_der_Eisenbahnhochbr%C3%BCcke_Hochdonn
.. and yet another one :
he01-17 012 075 withE 1638 (Emden->Rheine) stop and restart from Meppen station , August 05.th1973 at 19:27h.
on the level , however remarkable as an example for a very clean start and energetic acceleration - that's the way it was supposed to be ! ( clicking sound with engine waiting is feed pump mounted to the front left corner below mixing type preheater inside smokebox , ocasional faster beat from air pump midways along right side of engine , some hint of base sound from oil burners , very careful opening of throttle at start )
Play loud and have fun !
>> Say young lady, isn't it past your bedtime? <<
Ah , no , dad , I'm not sleepy .
Don't cha know I'm Long-tall Sally-One waiting under a stary sky on the ready track at the station where 25 kV overhead wiring ends to take over the Night Orient Express running late behind two electrics ...
*Gee*
June
.. guess I'll have to post one of my 6-4-4-6 type layouts one time ..
Ah, so THAT'S how you do it!
Say young lady, isn't it past your bedtime? It must be about midnight in Germany! Don't loose any sleep on our account!
Ok , for quoting :
I prefer to mark the sentence(s) I want to quote ( and in cases the line 'posted by xyz on the twelfth of never' for example ) , copy by right click + 'copy' or by ctrl+c , set the bimp in the text bay and insert by right click + 'insert' or by ctrl+v and then write my comment below an empty line for clarity .
You may choose layout features as you like to further differentiate the quotation from your text .
Hi Juniatha, glad you're back and you brought your insights with you!
I wouldn't be too hard on ol' Mario, maybe he can't figure out how to edit your posts down to the quote he needs. Understandable, I can't figure out how to edit a post down either, which is why I only quote short ones.
Think it's easy being a dinosaur? Think again! It takes practice!
Best wishes, Wayne
your reply , Mario :
That's pretty much repeating what I wrote and meant ( 13 cars , about 50 t each ; medium speed up ramp in spite of pretty good effort ( for the vintage engines in question ) .
What you mentioned about the RENFE 242 class would appear to be the difference between 'nominal' output (according to a pre-defined nominal boiler evaporation output ) and 'all-out' output of cylinder power which in European steam generally exceeded even *maximum* boiler output by a more or less notable margin . For example , of German oilfired Pacifics , the 012 three cylinder class had a 'nominal rating of ( rather mild ) 2470 ihp [ metric ] - yet , as calculation of efforts in actual service on the Osnabrück - Hamburg and Hamburg - Westerland lines later revealed , these engines were capable of exceeding 3500 ihp transiently during acceleration and sustaining better than 3000 ihp in continuous output - it was only because of this level of performance on trains of up to ~ 750 t [ metric ] @ scheduled 135 km/h the service could be realized .
See my link : video of these engines in regular traffic on the Hamburg - Westerland line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlW2sV3hWu0
( I like the pacing scene at 44:30 )
.. and - p.s. - would you mind to stop copying my posting in total even including a copy of my signature (!!) - it can be read by the original !
Thank you
Juniatha Hi Wayne , the 'show element' is definitely present in European steam events - yet , the cylinder drain valves weren't just open , they didn't work properly all the time . quote Mario_v on Mon, Dec 30 2013 1:10 PM >> the train runs at medium speed due to the fact of the german mike being limited to 90 Kmhr (56 Mph). << By definition if 90 km/h is service speed limit of an engine then running this speed is *not* medium speed for this engine . On the video , provided it’s shown in 1:1 speed , the train *never* ran 90 km/h on any of these scenes shown . My guestimate would rather be around 60 km/h in the faster speed scenes quote daveklepper on Mon, Dec 30 2013 3:19 PM >> Note.that the Gothard is a single-speed railroad with everthing running at the same speed, freights, high-speed passenger, etc. And steam << Definitely not ! This steam special did not meet electric schedules – why , it can’t , equivalent power just isn’t there . Mind that scheduled trains run 50 mph up-grade - on the Gotthard as on other Swiss and Austrian mountain mainlines . On the Brenner Pass for instancance this is essential just to pass all the traffic through ! And : yes , SBB - CFF were friendly indeed to allow a steam special on the Gotthard line at all ! quote JimValle on Mon, Dec 30 2013 10:20 PM >> Even if Juniatha claims that the engines are running a bit lame due to the valve gear not being exactly "square" << I wasn’t writing the engines were running >> a bit lame << on the contrary I wrote speed was slow in spite of some energetic working ! Less so did I write this was due to valve gear misalignment ; the audible ‘off beat’ is way to small to have more than a pretty moderate effect on maximum output – however maximum output very likely was not reached by a large margin on the shown scenes and at least as concerns habitual German preservation steam running was in no way attempted : they usually avoid extending their engines – although not all of them seem to care likewise to avoid ‘wet’ working ( i .e. water in cylinders ) nor do they seem to avoid to run plenty of slack in rod ( and axle ! ) bearings - both of which arguably are much more abortive to engine up-keep than extending an engine when in sound condition and run with cylinders properly kept 'dry' . It's not for no reason I generally quit attending 'steam shows' ! Regards Juniatha
Hi Wayne ,
the 'show element' is definitely present in European steam events - yet , the cylinder drain valves weren't just open , they didn't work properly all the time .
quote Mario_v on Mon, Dec 30 2013 1:10 PM
>> the train runs at medium speed due to the fact of the german mike being limited to 90 Kmhr (56 Mph). <<
By definition if 90 km/h is service speed limit of an engine then running this speed is *not* medium speed for this engine . On the video , provided it’s shown in 1:1 speed , the train *never* ran 90 km/h on any of these scenes shown . My guestimate would rather be around 60 km/h in the faster speed scenes
quote daveklepper on Mon, Dec 30 2013 3:19 PM
>> Note.that the Gothard is a single-speed railroad with everthing running at the same speed, freights, high-speed passenger, etc. And steam <<
Definitely not ! This steam special did not meet electric schedules – why , it can’t , equivalent power just isn’t there . Mind that scheduled trains run 50 mph up-grade - on the Gotthard as on other Swiss and Austrian mountain mainlines . On the Brenner Pass for instancance this is essential just to pass all the traffic through ! And : yes , SBB - CFF were friendly indeed to allow a steam special on the Gotthard line at all !
quote JimValle on Mon, Dec 30 2013 10:20 PM
>> Even if Juniatha claims that the engines are running a bit lame due to the valve gear not being exactly "square" <<
I wasn’t writing the engines were running >> a bit lame << on the contrary I wrote speed was slow in spite of some energetic working ! Less so did I write this was due to valve gear misalignment ; the audible ‘off beat’ is way to small to have more than a pretty moderate effect on maximum output – however maximum output very likely was not reached by a large margin on the shown scenes and at least as concerns habitual German preservation steam running was in no way attempted : they usually avoid extending their engines – although not all of them seem to care likewise to avoid ‘wet’ working ( i .e. water in cylinders ) nor do they seem to avoid to run plenty of slack in rod ( and axle ! ) bearings - both of which arguably are much more abortive to engine up-keep than extending an engine when in sound condition and run with cylinders properly kept 'dry' . It's not for no reason I generally quit attending 'steam shows' !
I would say, on the first case - the double heading - the load of the train is about 650 metric tons (i counted 13 cars, normally a load of 50 tons per car is typical of the cars presented). That,and the grades (at least in one of the scenes,in a general plan on a broad curve), the engines seem tobe strugling upthe grade (I dunno about their 'normal power'(ok, saying that a steam engine has a so called 'normal' power output is not very correct. Every time somebody talks about 'normal' power output, I always remeber the case of the big spanish 242s, that had a normalpower output of 2700 Hp, and in tests with a dynamometer car reached 4426 Hp)would be around 2200 or 2500 Hp, so, with that considerableload, and the 'Swiss ramps' that are in some cases quite strong, even 60 is a very respectable speed.
As for the 141R in the Gothard ramp,it can never goup the 2,6% grade at the same speed that electrics would go. even so,it seems tohold itself quite well.I would say it's going at least at 'medium'speed,therefore it did not 'jam' the line (maybe this trip went on on a weekend, less trians up the grades).
M,
I wasn’t writing the engines were running >> a bit lame << on the contrary I wrote speed was slow in spite of some energetic working ! Less so did I write this was due to valve gear misalignment ; the audible ‘off beat’ is way to small to have more than a pretty small effect on maximum output – however maximum output very likely was not reached by a large margin on the shown scenes and at least as concerns habitual German preservation steam running was in no way attempted : they usually avoid extending their engines – although not all of them seem to care likewise to avoid ‘wet’ working ( i .e. water in cylinders ) nor do they seem to avoid to run plenty of slack in rod ( and axle ! ) bearings - both of which arguably are much more abortive to engine up-keep than extending an engine when in sound condition and run with cylinders properly kept 'dry' . It's not for no reason I generally quit attending 'steam shows' !
Mario_v Firelock76 Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking! And 568, the one on the second movie is a Philly child, born in BLW
Firelock76 Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking!
Hey Mario, if that 141R is a quebecquois locomotive they better keep an eye on it. It might be spreading separatist' literature around when they're not looking!
And 568, the one on the second movie is a Philly child, born in BLW
And I'll bet the exhaust smells just like a Philly cheesesteak sandwich! Man, I'd love to have one right now but they're a hard to get item where I live now.
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