Its only a matter of time before metal fatiuge sets in and we have to build reproductions. I know that there are some 1950s models out there but what happens in 2050?
Oh my gosh - I would be the type to write an answer to that - but by sitting on my hands I can prevent it .. just .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G-XAyBDWdw
If I know one thing for sure it is : *I* wouldn't want to get 200 years old ..
Juniatha
In all seriousness, will a steam locomotive still be running in 200 years? Well, I suppose it depends on how well it was built to begin with and how well it's been maintained.
Not quite the same thing, but in the battlefield parks around Richmond Va. there's a number of bronze cannon from the Civil War on display. Those guns can still be fired, the bronze was that durable.
So, it depends. Building replica wouldn't be a bad idea.
And what happens in the year 2525 doesn't concern me, I aint' gonna be here.
It's an interesting question, but it begs another: How much (by weight) of a heavily restored steam locomotive is truly "original".
Every time a locomotive goes in for its 15 year or whatever, more original metal is replaced. It's not hard to imagine a well funded locomotive like 844 or 4449 being almost entirely reproduction in 200 years.
Specifically, the USS Constitution comes to mind. It's the oldest commissioned warship in the navy at over 200, but how much of the actual wood is original - not much.
I believe "Constitution" is about 60% original. Same with Admiral Nelsons flagship HMS Victory.
If it has been mothballed in a perfect environment all that time, it is quite possible it could be resurrected. But if it has seen periodic use it will be rather like the famous woodsman's axe; the handle had been replaced 8 times and the head twice, but "it's still great grandpa's original axe". In fact a number of the older steam locomotives extant today received considerable modernisation during their railroad career, including new boilers, cabs and valve gear.
The other problem is likely to be meeting the safety standards of the future if the current trend of ever more stringent regulation continues. As a sci-fi example, since boilers can explode perhaps their use may be completely forbidden if some radical new technology has made them obsolete.
John
I will not be able to run any locomotive 100 years from now.
I believe the John Bull that runs is a complete new rebuild, if new in 1939 is new. However, the orginal loco was fired up and run on its 150th.
The problem will be the new 24,000 or so regulations that will prevent anyone from running anything in one to two hundred years. If it runs on solar panels, it might be allowed.
CZ
John Bull is a British-built railroad steam locomotive that operated in the United States. It was operated for the first time on September 15, 1831, and it became the oldest operable steam locomotive in the world when the Smithsonian Institution operated it in 1981.[3][4] Built by Robert Stephenson and Company, the John Bull was initially purchased by and operated for the Camden and Amboy Railroad, the first railroad in New Jersey, which gave John Bull the number 1 and its first name, "Stevens". The C&A used the locomotive heavily from 1833 until 1866, when it was removed from active service and placed in storage.
After the C&A's assets were acquired by the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) in 1871, the PRR refurbished and operated the locomotive a few times for public displays: it was steamed up for the Centennial Exposition in 1876 and again for the National Railway Appliance Exhibition in 1883. In 1884 the locomotive was purchased by the Smithsonian Institution as the museum's first major industrial exhibit.
In 1939 the employees at the PRR's Altoona, Pennsylvania, workshops built an operable replica of the locomotive for further exhibition duties, as the Smithsonian desired to keep the original locomotive in a more controlled environment. After being on static display for the next 42 years, the Smithsonian commemorated the locomotive's 150th birthday in 1981 by firing it up, making it the world's oldest surviving operable steam locomotive. Today, the original John Bull is on static display once more in the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History in Washington, D.C. The replica John Bull is preserved at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.
I would bet that we're running largely original steam locomotives in 200 years, but none that are original. We aren't really doing that now...already. Most that are rebuilt for modern safety and operational policies, laws, regs, etc, have major components that are new metallurgy and made with tools that didn't exist 100 years ago. Most rebuilding shops have skilled machinists who can spec out a necessary component and build it from scratch with some time, materials, and money. I believe the new British Peppercorn is almost entirely new, if not entirely new.
Frames that are cast and not milled will probably have a tougher time as the years go by. Spoked wheels? How good will they be after 10K hours on them? Any pivoting or revolving surfaces will certainly be new after all that time. Decking, foot plates, running boards, fairings, smoke lifters...they'll all be new. Unless it is pristine and very excellent ($) stainless cladding over the boiler, that'll be new in almost every case.
And so on...
Crandell
Well, let's see...
Inyo was built in 1875 and is steamed once a year - on July Fourth. Originally rated at 130psi, I believe she is currently limited to 40psi out of deference to the age of the boiler.
There were quite a few advances in metallurgy between 1875 and the end of steam. I would expect that a 1940-1950 locomotive, cared for as carefully as Inyo, could expect to steam into the 22nd century, with maximum pressure limited to 75 psi or so.
On the other hand, the future may well belong to a bunch of later-built replicas with ??? drives replacing that downright dangerous rolling bomb full of high-pressure steam and superheated water. One might look like N&W 611 or NYC 999, but be perfectly safe and totally 'green.' Will that happen? Can't tell. I dropped my crystal ball and now it only works for the 35th - 37th centuries...
(Aside to Lady J. Some of the characters that populate the Confederation Universe have access to long-life therapy which allows several young ladies to claim that they are, "Sixteen going on seventeen - hundred. Sixteen physiologically, with seventeen centuries of memories and life experiences.)
Chuck (Occasional science fiction writer)
Hi Chuck
Hmm .. seems like " strange days ( may then ) have found us " ..
( sorry , I know I keep coming back on that line by Jim Morrison . it is so 'universe-ly' befitting )
What about a steam science fiction story ..?
Regards
= J =
Hi, Juniatha
I've kicked around the idea of a major ship crashing on a habitable world and the survivors jury-rigging a railroad --- Nah. They'd just rig a communicator and call in the Fleet Rescue Service...
However, I do have it on good authority that Senior Command Admiral T. P. Carlsen (CinC Confederation Space Navy) has a large, elaborate model railroad based on the Upper Kiso Valley in the Central Japan Alps as it was in 1964. Steam, electric and some diesel-hydraulic locos. He claims that it helps him maintain his sanity when dealing with those seventeen century old teenagers...
Fun, isn't it?
Chuck
Bonaventure10 Its only a matter of time before metal fatiuge sets in and we have to build reproductions. I know that there are some 1950s models out there but what happens in 2050?
The good thing about steel is you can reset the "fatigue clock" by heating and then cooling. RRs do this all the time for truck castings and couplers reclaimed from old freight cars and locomotives - even (especially) after welding on them to restore dimensions.
The problem with boilers and fireboxes isn't fatigue, its them wearing or corroding so that they are too thin.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
How much of me is actauly original from 1965?
Hello,
Another point is the useful life of a steam locomotive. Late steam locomotives were built for daily service for about 40 years. Most were retired after about 20 years. So, in theory, they had 20 years of daily service left. Steam locomotives in preservation are often significantly more pampered than when in service, so they may have even more life.
Regarding the originality of steam locomotives, which is more important: a live steamer with replaced parts, or a dead "original" steam locomotive siting in a museum? I would much rather see a live steam locomotive!
NW.
This may be kind of a screwball thing to say, but since science fiction seems to be developing a habit of becoming science fact, it wouldn't surprise me that in 200-plus years time someone would be able to get the steam locomotive experience through a holographic simulator, right down to the coal smoke and hot oil and steam smells.
An actual live steamer wouldn't be necessary. I don't know if that would be a pity or not.
At least if you didn't pay attention to the sight glass and blew yourself up it wouldn't be permanent.
Firelock, why not just go to virtual reality?
Imagine...
Watching trains on Horseshoe Curve in 1944?
Tehachapi Loop in 1938?
The possibilities are endless!
NW
Absolutely Northwest, hence my supposition that a live operating steam locomotive may not be needed at all. Again, I don't know if that would be a good situation or not.
I'm guessing in 2 or 3 hundred years we'll just be batteries for the Matrix, anyhow.
Firelock76 ... it wouldn't surprise me that in 200-plus years time someone would be able to get the steam locomotive experience through a holographic simulator, right down to the coal smoke and hot oil and steam smells.
... it wouldn't surprise me that in 200-plus years time someone would be able to get the steam locomotive experience through a holographic simulator, right down to the coal smoke and hot oil and steam smells.
A "holographic simulator" IS an instantiation of VR. (Even if it's fantasy magic masquerading as technology, as in the STNG Holodeck...)
You might as well use Keith Laumer's contact screens and a bodysuit or actuator array. (I actually calculated the data rate for full-immersion, and it is surprisingly low, under 750MB/s). The chief issue remains that of smell, because you can't use direct stimulation effectively (the receptors and mediation are VERY nonlinear!) so you would need to pipe the appropriate scents to the intake air -- and it's easier to modulate the temperature of the intake air to the nose than to approximate the effects with nerve stimulation on mucous membranes.
You ought to be able to mimick most of the haptic experience of firing and running with the normal sort of 6-DOF gimbaled frame with feedback sensors and actuators at the joints, and a good set of touch gloves.
This thread has bounced around to an interesting question: What part of running restoration involves the thrill of the experience, and what part the preservation of the artifact itself in running condition?
The experience even given by an evolved version of a 'train simulator' may be sufficient for many railfans. Note that the total development cost of such a thing would be far more than the cost to build, maintain, and run a replica PRR S1 -- but the cost is spread in a much different way, the external gains and opportunities from the technology are much greater, and the alternative uses of the system and its models are much, much wider -- across a much wider potential user base.
Now, I, for one, would still be interested in the actual, tangible machines. I'm tempted to say that the right approach is still the one suggested to me with respect to fusion-generation research in the mid-'70s: become successful and well-capitalized 'outside' the field (in our present case, perhaps, by building the advanced simulators), and then use some of that money to maintain existing steam, or build and maintain replica steam, as desired... and make all necessary lobbying, industry and political connections, etc. required to accomplish operating them... ;-}
If we go considering virtual reality the way of the famous recreation room in the 'improved' Enterprise - I guess then I'd have some more far out adventures to call up - -
Provided I could take my technical knowledge with me on excursions through time ..
what about going back in time to the clear waters of Thetys Sea - watching sea life wonders and exploring lonely coasts of the unknown ..
-- well , diverting from railroading , sorry ..
edit : shortened to cut down on dissenting
What will this hologramic stuff do to my sex like? Like if my fantisys involve a Lima Climax locomotive?!!
Bonaventure10 What will this hologramic stuff do to my sex like? Like if my fantisys involve a Lima Climax locomotive?!!
Holographic "peep shows?" No man, I ain't goin' there....
Hi Overmod!
Yeah, that's an interesting question, or quandary. How would the holographic experience compare to the real thing, actually working up a sweat running a steam engine under Gods open sky versus a lab situation? I don't know.
Considering the gun collection I have, I've got a flintlock "Brown Bess" replica, plus an original from 1779. Shooting the replica is fun, but shooting the original is a thrill the replica can't match. It's the closest I'll ever come to shaking hands with a Revolutionary War veteran. Shooting the original Civil War musket is a thrill too, it does what any good historic artifact is supposed to do, that is, pull you back into it's own era for a short visit.
Aviation fans have the same problem. Many would say that if an aircraft doesn't survive to fly, it's not really surviving at all, but most are realistic enough to know that when a specific type is the only one left it should be grounded and placed in a museum for all to enjoy. Why take chances?
No easy answers, that's for certain.
Juniatha If we go considering virtual reality the way of the famous recreation room in the 'improved' Enterprise - I guess then I'd have some more far out adventures to call up - - Provided I could take my technical knowledge with me on excursions through time .. what about going back in time to the clear waters of Thetys Sea - watching sea life wonders and exploring lonely coasts of the unknown .. -- well , diverting from railroading , sorry .. Regards Juniatha
Hi Juniatha, you remind me of the Jimmy Buffett song...
Of course, it would be cool walking the quarterdeck with Sir Francis Drake with the Armada coming over the horizon....
"If the 'Dons' sight Devon, I'll quit the port of Heaven, and we'll drum 'em up the Channel as we drummed 'em once before..."
Ah, imagination!
Wayne
Firelock76Of course, it would be cool walking the quarterdeck with Sir Francis Drake with the Armada coming over the horizon....
Just so everyone knows, here is the reference.
Hi Overmod! Ah yes, "Drake's Drum". It was originally a poem, and was later set to music as shown in your You Tube post. Personally I think it works better as a poem, the song's pretty dreary.
Legend has it that if England is threatened again beat Drakes Drum (yes, it still exists) and he'll come back to defend the realm. Rumor has it Prime Minister Winston Churchill had a Royal Navy drummer standing by Drakes Drum in the summer of 1940 when Hitler was ready to pounce, "just in case." Is the story true? Well as Winston said about the Arthurian legend, "Of course it's true! Or it ought to be! And more and better besides!"
What would be REALLY cool would be standing alongside Sir Frank on the flying bridge of HMS Rodney at the head of the battle line as the Armada appeared on the horizon. Demi-Culverin, meet sixteen inch naval rifle...
As for experiencing steam via holographic simulation, I feel the same way about that as I feel about flight simulators. (They don't pull real G, and they don't deliver real ordnance.) A lot of my one cab ride was feeling the jounces and jolts as the loco bounded along some less-than-perfect track. Somehow I don't think an audio-visual medium will be able to reproduce that.
Chuck (Who isn't above applying 36th century technology to solve 20th century problems)
Theoretically, a steam engine could be run and repaired indefinitely. At some point, the costs might outweigh the benefits. Look at SP 786; it has taken over 14 years to get the cylinder saddle recast and remachined. Most of that time was spent in fund raising, but a major casting like that is not an off-the-shelf part. At some point in the future, not only will parts have to be replicated, but the technology used to create the part may have to be replicated. And that will be expensive. And that doesn't include the technical know how, as well.
Hi Wayne
That might be an experience for the history minded , no doubt . However , I wonder if you’d get some doubts when you see the masts of the Armada coming up – or would you just think to yourself “ Looks horrible , if I didn’t know we’ll win in spite of it , I’d really get scared “ How sure would you remain when the cannons boom along ?
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