oltmanndWe'll print new ones - or at least new parts. Really.
If you're interested in the current state of this technology in railway preservation, follow this thread over at RyPN.
To get back to the question original locomotive vs. replica locomotive, I submit that replacement
of parts was an ongoing process through the operating life of the locomotive. If the replacements
had not started sooner, that 48 service month retubing made a good start on it. Those class repairs
were through, not just the minimum to keep it going. Bearing brasses, pipe work, tires, brake shoes,
grates, brickwork, and much more. And tender tanks, oh my! Steel with water on one side and
sulfur bearing coal on the other, exposed to weather......
By the time a locomotive had put in 25 or 50 years of hard road service and 48 month overhauls,
there was already a high percentage of replacement parts on board. Oftimes whole boilers, cabs,
wheels and rods would have been replaced at least once. Small stuff too. Cab seats, window
sashes, gauges, all subject to upgrade or replace. There are many surviving loco bells with
more than one number stamped into them.
And perhaps we could ask ourselves, is the General worth less respect for having been rebuilt
several times with replacement parts? Even suffered upgrades? Like brakes or steel instead
of iron in many places? Personally, I love the fact that the General is still here with us even though
she doesn't look exactly like she did in 1860.
I do not think a century of museum or excursion service is going to be as damaging to any steam
engine as those first years of regular hard work and little is going to break that can not be replaced
again and again. Please, replace brakes, crown sheets, and whatever to keep it safe and running.
Chuck Peck
oltmannd Bonaventure10 Its only a matter of time before metal fatiuge sets in and we have to build reproductions. I know that there are some 1950s models out there but what happens in 2050? We'll print new ones - or at least new parts. Really.
Bonaventure10 Its only a matter of time before metal fatiuge sets in and we have to build reproductions. I know that there are some 1950s models out there but what happens in 2050?
Its only a matter of time before metal fatiuge sets in and we have to build reproductions. I know that there are some 1950s models out there but what happens in 2050?
We'll print new ones - or at least new parts. Really.
If is was built by man - it can be rebuilt and/or restored by man! It only takes time and money (and normally a whole lot of both)
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I've wondered this myself, and it scares me to think that original steam might not be operating when I'm 60 or 70. But, if we look at the Manitou & Pikes Peak, I'm told that their #4 is still able to be operated and is fired up at least once a year. The locomotive was built in the 1890s and has not had an overhaul yet, and the company wants to keep it that way.
Blue Alert! We're at Blue Alert! Aw crap, it's a nondescript GEVO... Cancel Blue Alert!
Bonaventure10 How much of me is actauly original from 1965?
How much of me is actauly original from 1965?
Good point. Besides, I don't think it really matters if a locomotive receives enough new parts it has to be called a replica and not an original. We will all think of the locomotive as the original, all original parts or the complete opposite.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
tomikawaTT The one thing we can be sure of is that if WWII had continued the existing locomotive fleet would have been even more war-weary in 1948(?) than it was in 1945, and the War Production Board wouldn't have authorized any improved designs to supplement or replace the worn out units that just couldn't take any more.
The one thing we can be sure of is that if WWII had continued the existing locomotive fleet would have been even more war-weary in 1948(?) than it was in 1945, and the War Production Board wouldn't have authorized any improved designs to supplement or replace the worn out units that just couldn't take any more.
Depends on how WWII had continued. If it was continuing because the Manhattan Engineering District was having severe problems converting concept to reality, the naval war would have still have been pretty much over after the fall of Okinawa. The WPB was getting into the wind-down mode in early 1945 and were letting the builders work on developing new designs. The key issue with new steam is whether that alloying metals used for high strength steel were readily available. With the IJN out of the way, the USN's demand for diesel engines may have slackened and diesels would have been more readily available than before the war.
If WWII lasted longer because Germany got smart in late '42 or early '43 - i.e. deployed the ME-262, then naval requirements for diesel engines would have kept up longer and more wartime steam would have been built.
Fortunately the war ended when it did.
- Erik
Hi Chuck!
Certainly I know about the Naval Battle of Samar, that magnificent stand of "Taffy 3" , those destroyers, DE's, and "jeep" carriers. They definately closed to within striking distance with those 5" guns, hell, one tincan man even yelled "Hold on boys, we're suckering 'em in to 40mm range!"
BUT, you have to remember, "Taffy 3" made what amounted to a suicide stand. Under normal circumstances there's no way a destroyer would go toe-to-toe with a battleship or a heavy or even a light cruiser, that wasn't their pupose. The thing was "Taffy 3" was the only force standing between the Japanese and MacArthurs invasion beaches in the Phillipines. They had no choice, as the saying goes, "a dirty job but SOMEBODY'S got to do it!" And it was possibly the greatest fight the US Navy ever put up.
No disrepect to the men and women serving now, but my God, that was one fighting navy we had in World War Two. Probably the best navy we've ever had. I should know, I've met a few of the navy men of World War Two, and every one of them seemed ready to go out and do it again if they had to. NOT that they wanted to, but that spirit they had during the war still stayed with them into old age.
It was a God-given priviledge to know them. The Japanese never had a chance.
Wayne
J - a steam science fiction story - there's lots of those around. The genre is called steampunk and the novel that is credited with starting things rolling (sorry about that) is The Difference Engine.
tomikawaTTSo, what could a couple of modern destroyers do against the wooden warriors of the Spanish Armada? Let's just say that I wouldn't want to be taking orders in Spanish if that happened.
Well, they made a movie about what would have happened to the IJN if a 'modern' carrier and aircraft became involved. One of the more satisfying moments in filmdom (for an American, at least!) ... "Splash the Zeroes!" (Which subsequently became very, very splashed...)
My immediate thought about the Spanish was that modern weapons guidance might not be optimized to hit wooden ships of the line... although there's enough metal in the guns, I suspect,to serve nicely, and if they'd been recently fired their IR signature would likewise serve nicely...
... but I also then thought about what Oppenheimer responded to Teller with, laughing, when Teller described the Teller-Ulam configuration to him. Paraphrase: 'I was trying to imagine a military target large enough'. A galleon -- even enough ships to 'darken the Channel' -- might be a military target far, far too small for the attentions of modern tactical weaponry...
As for what a 5/38 could do to the softer parts of a Japanese warship (including Yamato,) check out the battle off Samar from the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Fletcher class destroyers ripped the Central Force a new one, aided and abetted by even lighter DEs with fewer weapons. Granted the killing shots were made with torpedoes, but the fives chewed up everything that wasn't wrapped in armor. Radar, optical rangefinders, secondary and AA mounts were savaged. Granted there were air strikes going on, but the Taffy air wings had been armed with thin-skinned HE bombs for land targets, not AP for use against ships.
So, what could a couple of modern destroyers do against the wooden warriors of the Spanish Armada? Let's just say that I wouldn't want to be taking orders in Spanish if that happened.
Chuck (Ex-Midshipman modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
While we're off topic,
The US Navy had plans for a USS Montana-class battlewagon that would be a more heavily-armored Iowa-class with a fourth turret.
The IJN had drawn up plans for a 4-turret Yamato as well as a 2-turret model with 20-inch guns.
Maybe we could postulate what may have happened to the railroads if WW2 had continued. Perhaps longer steam life?
Yamato losing because the seconday batteries weren't as good as Missouri's? I don't know, secondary means just that, those 5" 38 cals were strictly for use where the main batteries weren't appropriate. Bear in mind the mains could open fire at 15 miles, the ships might get closer but it's highly unlikely the secondaries would have been used much.
As far as the main batteries are concerned the ships would have been evenly matched. The US and British navies experimented with 18 inch guns in the years after World War One and found no real improvement in performance over the 16 inch gun. so 16 inch bores were as far as they were going to go.
What would have decided the battle would have been ship handling, gunnery skills, and solid surface warfare tactics. The Missouri would have had a technilogical edge with it's radar, which was a lot better than the Japanese, and I believe the Mark One fire control computer the Missouri had was better than anything the Yamato might have had.
As I said, thank God it didn't happen. World War Two was bloody enough.
PS: Both ships were steam driven, so we're not too far "off course", are we?
Firelock76 tomikawaTT What would be REALLY cool would be standing alongside Sir Frank on the flying bridge of HMS Rodney at the head of the battle line as the Armada appeared on the horizon. Demi-Culverin, meet sixteen inch naval rifle... Chuck (Who isn't above applying 36th century technology to solve 20th century problems) I don't know, Chuck. If we're talking 16 inch gun naval battles (postulated) I'd prefer to see something like the USS New Jersey versus the IJN Yamato. Now THAT would be a spectacular duel of giants! Thank God it didn't happen for real. Wayne
tomikawaTT What would be REALLY cool would be standing alongside Sir Frank on the flying bridge of HMS Rodney at the head of the battle line as the Armada appeared on the horizon. Demi-Culverin, meet sixteen inch naval rifle... Chuck (Who isn't above applying 36th century technology to solve 20th century problems)
What would be REALLY cool would be standing alongside Sir Frank on the flying bridge of HMS Rodney at the head of the battle line as the Armada appeared on the horizon. Demi-Culverin, meet sixteen inch naval rifle...
Chuck (Who isn't above applying 36th century technology to solve 20th century problems)
I don't know, Chuck. If we're talking 16 inch gun naval battles (postulated) I'd prefer to see something like the USS New Jersey versus the IJN Yamato. Now THAT would be a spectacular duel of giants!
Thank God it didn't happen for real.
Hi, Wayne,
Somewhere on the net is a one-on-one USS Missouri/IJN Yamato firefight. The conclusion? 'Big Mo' won, because Yamato's fire control failed under the incessant pounding of the 5 inch/38s. The main batteries were evenly matched, but the secondaries weren't.
What I was postulating was a hypothetical meeting between the Armada of 1588 and the Royal Navy battle line of 1938. Demi-Culverin refers to the muzzle loading cannon known to later centuries as a 12-pounder.
Juniatha, the only really odd nautical object in my future history is a sloop, Bold Champion, which existed from 1848 to 1930 - time-looped back from 3513 and crammed to the gunnels with 36th century tech - most of it solid state built into the skin which really isn't teak hull planking. The sail plan is typical 19th century gaff rig, but the thrusters give her an actual speed of 28 knots cruise, 35 knots sprint.
So, what happened in 1930? She was taken aboard CPV Kurohime and returned to Sierra by way of Monolith. It's handy to have a 55,000 ton high speed starship with a time drive...
Chuck (Sometimes sci-fi author modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Darn you, now I have the sounds of Judy Collins singing "Pirate Jenny" going through my head. One way to clear it is picturing a big artic (e.g. an H-8 or UP 4000 series) lined up on the pier and primed for a big boiler explosion. The flying boiler shell should take care of any sailing ship in range.
Hi Juniatha! Yes, I'm sure there were quite a few "bloody Hells!" when the English sailors saw the Armada coming. At least they had confidence in their commanders like Effigham and Drake.
The Spaniards were good seamen as well, no-one with any knowledge of the time can say they weren't, however their commander, the Duke of Medina-Sedona wasn't a sailor at all, he was a soldier who was given command of the fleet. He didn't want it, but Phillip II wasn't someone you said no to. The poor old Duke was a brave man, but no naval tactician and it showed.
How long would I hang around once the shooting started? Well, that's the thing about naval battles. When the nearest land is several hundred feet down you might as well stay and fight, 'cause there's nowhere to run!
And I'd love to see the clipper "Juniatha's Revenge" under full sail. Hey, might as well give it a dramatic name.
tomikawaTT What would be REALLY cool would be standing alongside Sir Frank on the flying bridge of HMS Rodney at the head of the battle line as the Armada appeared on the horizon. Demi-Culverin, meet sixteen inch naval rifle... As for experiencing steam via holographic simulation, I feel the same way about that as I feel about flight simulators. (They don't pull real G, and they don't deliver real ordnance.) A lot of my one cab ride was feeling the jounces and jolts as the loco bounded along some less-than-perfect track. Somehow I don't think an audio-visual medium will be able to reproduce that. Chuck (Who isn't above applying 36th century technology to solve 20th century problems)
As for experiencing steam via holographic simulation, I feel the same way about that as I feel about flight simulators. (They don't pull real G, and they don't deliver real ordnance.) A lot of my one cab ride was feeling the jounces and jolts as the loco bounded along some less-than-perfect track. Somehow I don't think an audio-visual medium will be able to reproduce that.
Oh, and what you said about flight simulators: My brother who's ex-Air Force would agree with you, it's just not the same. As a matter of fact he said in their own way the simulators are harder than the real thing, there's just no "feedback" from the machine, through the seat of your pants or otherwise.
Hi Wayne
That might be an experience for the history minded , no doubt . However , I wonder if you’d get some doubts when you see the masts of the Armada coming up – or would you just think to yourself “ Looks horrible , if I didn’t know we’ll win in spite of it , I’d really get scared “ How sure would you remain when the cannons boom along ?
Regards
= J =
Theoretically, a steam engine could be run and repaired indefinitely. At some point, the costs might outweigh the benefits. Look at SP 786; it has taken over 14 years to get the cylinder saddle recast and remachined. Most of that time was spent in fund raising, but a major casting like that is not an off-the-shelf part. At some point in the future, not only will parts have to be replicated, but the technology used to create the part may have to be replicated. And that will be expensive. And that doesn't include the technical know how, as well.
Hi Overmod! Ah yes, "Drake's Drum". It was originally a poem, and was later set to music as shown in your You Tube post. Personally I think it works better as a poem, the song's pretty dreary.
Legend has it that if England is threatened again beat Drakes Drum (yes, it still exists) and he'll come back to defend the realm. Rumor has it Prime Minister Winston Churchill had a Royal Navy drummer standing by Drakes Drum in the summer of 1940 when Hitler was ready to pounce, "just in case." Is the story true? Well as Winston said about the Arthurian legend, "Of course it's true! Or it ought to be! And more and better besides!"
Firelock76Of course, it would be cool walking the quarterdeck with Sir Francis Drake with the Armada coming over the horizon....
Just so everyone knows, here is the reference.
Juniatha If we go considering virtual reality the way of the famous recreation room in the 'improved' Enterprise - I guess then I'd have some more far out adventures to call up - - Provided I could take my technical knowledge with me on excursions through time .. what about going back in time to the clear waters of Thetys Sea - watching sea life wonders and exploring lonely coasts of the unknown .. -- well , diverting from railroading , sorry .. Regards Juniatha
If we go considering virtual reality the way of the famous recreation room in the 'improved' Enterprise - I guess then I'd have some more far out adventures to call up - -
Provided I could take my technical knowledge with me on excursions through time ..
what about going back in time to the clear waters of Thetys Sea - watching sea life wonders and exploring lonely coasts of the unknown ..
-- well , diverting from railroading , sorry ..
Juniatha
Hi Juniatha, you remind me of the Jimmy Buffett song...
Of course, it would be cool walking the quarterdeck with Sir Francis Drake with the Armada coming over the horizon....
"If the 'Dons' sight Devon, I'll quit the port of Heaven, and we'll drum 'em up the Channel as we drummed 'em once before..."
Ah, imagination!
Hi Overmod!
Yeah, that's an interesting question, or quandary. How would the holographic experience compare to the real thing, actually working up a sweat running a steam engine under Gods open sky versus a lab situation? I don't know.
Considering the gun collection I have, I've got a flintlock "Brown Bess" replica, plus an original from 1779. Shooting the replica is fun, but shooting the original is a thrill the replica can't match. It's the closest I'll ever come to shaking hands with a Revolutionary War veteran. Shooting the original Civil War musket is a thrill too, it does what any good historic artifact is supposed to do, that is, pull you back into it's own era for a short visit.
Aviation fans have the same problem. Many would say that if an aircraft doesn't survive to fly, it's not really surviving at all, but most are realistic enough to know that when a specific type is the only one left it should be grounded and placed in a museum for all to enjoy. Why take chances?
No easy answers, that's for certain.
Bonaventure10 What will this hologramic stuff do to my sex like? Like if my fantisys involve a Lima Climax locomotive?!!
What will this hologramic stuff do to my sex like? Like if my fantisys involve a Lima Climax locomotive?!!
Holographic "peep shows?" No man, I ain't goin' there....
edit : shortened to cut down on dissenting
Firelock76 ... it wouldn't surprise me that in 200-plus years time someone would be able to get the steam locomotive experience through a holographic simulator, right down to the coal smoke and hot oil and steam smells.
... it wouldn't surprise me that in 200-plus years time someone would be able to get the steam locomotive experience through a holographic simulator, right down to the coal smoke and hot oil and steam smells.
Firelock, why not just go to virtual reality?
A "holographic simulator" IS an instantiation of VR. (Even if it's fantasy magic masquerading as technology, as in the STNG Holodeck...)
You might as well use Keith Laumer's contact screens and a bodysuit or actuator array. (I actually calculated the data rate for full-immersion, and it is surprisingly low, under 750MB/s). The chief issue remains that of smell, because you can't use direct stimulation effectively (the receptors and mediation are VERY nonlinear!) so you would need to pipe the appropriate scents to the intake air -- and it's easier to modulate the temperature of the intake air to the nose than to approximate the effects with nerve stimulation on mucous membranes.
You ought to be able to mimick most of the haptic experience of firing and running with the normal sort of 6-DOF gimbaled frame with feedback sensors and actuators at the joints, and a good set of touch gloves.
This thread has bounced around to an interesting question: What part of running restoration involves the thrill of the experience, and what part the preservation of the artifact itself in running condition?
The experience even given by an evolved version of a 'train simulator' may be sufficient for many railfans. Note that the total development cost of such a thing would be far more than the cost to build, maintain, and run a replica PRR S1 -- but the cost is spread in a much different way, the external gains and opportunities from the technology are much greater, and the alternative uses of the system and its models are much, much wider -- across a much wider potential user base.
Now, I, for one, would still be interested in the actual, tangible machines. I'm tempted to say that the right approach is still the one suggested to me with respect to fusion-generation research in the mid-'70s: become successful and well-capitalized 'outside' the field (in our present case, perhaps, by building the advanced simulators), and then use some of that money to maintain existing steam, or build and maintain replica steam, as desired... and make all necessary lobbying, industry and political connections, etc. required to accomplish operating them... ;-}
I'm guessing in 2 or 3 hundred years we'll just be batteries for the Matrix, anyhow.
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