#63
Remember the wise words of the late Michael Crighton, the author of "Jurassic Park:
"This earth operates on cycles Man can't possibly imagine or understand. Man can't destroy the planet, he can only destroy himself."
So pass that coal! The hot dogs are waiting!
AND I just remembered, someone a while back, I don't know who, said there's almost nothing to compare with the scent of coal smoke, hot coffee, and a good cigar, especially if you're enjoying the same in the cab of a steam engine.
# 62
on those latest deviations
That reminds me of the old joke of the comet – after having travelled far and long through space on its mysterious orbit – passing earth again after 225,000 years ..:
“Hi –”
sings comet Metabird since she speaks seven sun systems languages fluently
“– ol’blu oddball ! what’s up in this region – how are you ?”
“Uuuh-huh” makes earth hardly audible “don’t ask me , I don’t feel well ..”
“Why ?” jauntily insists the comet for she always has but moments to spend while incessantly traveling at 1/12 the speed of light
“I see you don’t look as sparkling white and blue as you did last time – what happened ?”
“Ooh-” aches earth , “I’m sick , I’ve got Homo Sapiens ! and it’s become worse recently ..”
“Ah , that one !” the comet says lightly , almost sounding relieved and adds
“Never mind , old bluball , that doesn't lasts too long – if it worsens that means it’s in it’s final stage and then it will pass by soon !” , turning her tail already flashes by the sun and into space beyond – sending an airy farewell
“So long – see you next time , bye now !” she disappears in the immense blackness of the unknown ..
Regards
Juniatha
#61
And you can warm a can, nicely, on the engine block. Do not, however, leave a can of baked beans on the block too long. It will open automatically and serve itself all over the inside of the hood!
But more on topic, Mr. Firelock, I am very much of the same mind as you. Man is just an annoying upstart in the worlds long history. If things get too out of kilter, the ol' globe will right her self, whether man survives the adjustment or not! So, yes, by all means throw coal on those grates! Steam generated by any other method just don't smell right! (Except maybe a good wood fire)
#60
Hi Juniatha! Let's keep in mind the ultimate advantage a coal-fired steamer has over a diesel. A diesel has no firebox you can roast hot dogs in, or a backhead you can fry bacon on!
OK, MAYBE you could fry bacon on a diesel exhaust manifold but I wouldn't guarantee the taste.
It'd be fun. I'll bring the hot dogs, the buns, the mustard and the potato chips. You bring the beer.
Wayne
# 59
Well , Firelock , in the presence of N&W 611 in steam and ready to go we will agree that a little coal fire on a steam locomotive's grate won't do no harm - and if it does we're prepared to go doomsdaying and pay the price - *after the ride* , for sure .
" Now why should we have to go doomsdaying , too , with you steam buffs - all because you couldn't leave those old sooty monsters alone ! "
cry the diesel fans . And it's true , it's a shame , isn't it ...
= J =
(Who's up for # 60 ? )
#58
Hi Juniatha!
Ah dear lady, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the global warming thing. All I can say is the last few vocanic eruptions pumped a lot more crud into the atmosphere than man's done lately and we're still here. As I've said before I'm an amateur historian and I think I've got history on my side. Uh history, you ARE on my side, aren't you? You around? Where'd you go? Oh, back on the bookshelf with 499 of your sisters you silly little muse!
Oh, I HAVE been shot at before, but that's another story.
With Clio's complements, Wayne
# 57
answering on # 56 :I will not shoot you , Firelock , sure not , I think we all want to have you around some more - but !the consumption of oxygen by mankind due to technological heat processes as against times before technology was being developed - and that is what the bio system was balanced for ! - has been increased by some 100 times per person - plus the number of humans has multiplied by - well - just incredible and totally out of proportion . There are cities in the Third World with more inhabitants than there were .. umph , I change my example from what was on my mind .. in all of Europe just about a century or two ago .
This sort of thing cannot go on without severe consequences and in these times with peak oil past we begin to feel it - only its starting very gently , very slowly , and with all those fluctuations that had been there is still scope for denying the truth , but don't deceive yourself , we will live to see it swell to awesome and awful size and then there is no more denying .
The Titanic didn't sink in a few minutes - yet was doomed the very moment the hulk had been ripped open . Still , there was time for those who wanted to pretend everything would turn out well to keep dining , talking , promenading , taking a shower , dressing for the evening , going to bed , playing cards or what have you . All those finally woke up to the unthinkable when they saw the water trickle over the floor and never leaving no more but gaining and gaining until the last one understood it would just be the third class sinking but *all* the ship without exception .
With Kassandra's compliments
#56
I just wish people would quit pickin' on coal, the original biomass fuel, as a fuel for steam locomotives. Look, you burn the coal, boil the water, make steam, run the train. What could be more simple and "organic" than that? Who knows what kind of demons and devils are at work under the hood of a diesel? Besides, who doesn't like the smell of coal smoke? Kind of like the smell of burning leaves in autumn that everyone misses so much.
Just so everyone knows, I DO believe in global warming and climate change, there's plenty of historic and geologic evidence to show it's happened plenty of times on the past, along with global cooling. What I DON'T believe is that mankind has anything to to with what's an apparantly normal cycle for this planet. Man? Who's a pimple on the butt of the world? Please.
So shoot me.
#55
JuniathaLeave the forests alone , let the jungles live , use wind and solar energy for what have you and let us have a glimpse of steam at it's best - the dark honey is well spent on the rare bliss of it ...
Agreed!
NW
# 54
# 53 NorthWest Fri, Aug 9 2013 6:48 PM:
>> .. but it is better than the bunker C some steamers burn. And it is cheap and in abundant supply! <<
Yep , NorthWest - and ,sorry , that's how it smells , too !
Once you have gotten a breeze of heavy bunker C oil , I think you dig pan waste - it has an air of abundance of energy and in combination with the deep base , subwoofing of the burners is *sooo* fitting for big steam - it's the completion of the warm embracing that's so thrilling about feeling a live big steam locomotives right before you !
Leave the forests alone , let the jungles live , use wind and solar energy for what have you and let us have a glimpse of steam at it's best - the dark honey is well spent on the rare bliss of it ...
#53
Firelock76 #49 As the salty old roundhouse foreman said when dieselization began: "Where you gonna get the cinders for yer yard track ballast if you stop usin' coal?"
#49
As the salty old roundhouse foreman said when dieselization began:
"Where you gonna get the cinders for yer yard track ballast if you stop usin' coal?"
52 class
>> But you knew all that, you are testing us? <<
Paul ,
I'm afraid you're so right - 'twas but a joke , though with a background I have to say , if you know which thread and issue I mean ( it's gone for good now ) ... 'twas but a friendly turn of a card ( alas , parsing the project ..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4K6j0m2mxE
..night falls over the dark roundhouses with their high windows amber glow and their sinister black steely steeds of uncanny voices .. I think it’s steam within a dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1zVojw3IkU
But what does the raven appear for ? Indeed,strange days have found us
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NleFEDHmdhs
E=MD² ? Teodora singing ... ( not Russian , it's Bulgarian , I guess - they use kyrillic letters , too ; although she is Roumanian )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DsuhiQbP5A
# 51
Juniatha Btw : what do*you*mean by >> steam coal << ? Could it be coal mining by using steam pressure for fracking ? ( no , sure not , it’s carbonized steam using too much superheating and palm oil for cylinder lubrubbing – no , ‘coursenotsorry )
Btw : what do*you*mean by >> steam coal << ? Could it be coal mining by using steam pressure for fracking ? ( no , sure not , it’s carbonized steam using too much superheating and palm oil for cylinder lubrubbing – no , ‘coursenotsorry )
"Steam coal" is a slang or informal term for coal that is well-suited to combustion in a boiler, such as a steam locomotive boiler, for raising steam. An important quality is not too much ash and that the ash that is there melts at a high temperature to prevent formation of clinker. Clinker that clogs the entry of combustion air into the firebed is the bane of locomotive firemen (yes, men) of all lands and cultures. Low volatiles may help in reducing the amount of visible smoke when burnt in a locomotive boiler.
"Metalurgical coal" is probably a more technical term for coal, when made into coke, is of a satisfactory high-carbon composition and makes a fluffy coke for use in a blast furnace to make iron from iron ore. It probably needs to be low ash and the ash having a chemical composition that doesn't confound the blast furnace chemistry.
But you knew all that, you are testing us?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
***# 50***
# 46 Overmod on Wed, Aug 7 2013 5:12 PM
>> "Carbon emissions" doesn't mean sooting or smoke, it means 'containing the element carbon' <<
Well , ok – but what he *meant* was solid carbon – i.e. unburnt particles or partly burnt particles ,soot escaping the chimney and producing a cloud of smoke *as black as coal* - or .. carbon as you remarked quite rightly .
>> Interestingly, steam locomotive soot and unburnt fines represent less of a 'global warming' hazard than does gaseous CO2, and less of a health hazard than nanoparticulates in diesel exhaust... <<
That’s an important point , I fully agree with that !
#48 NorthWest on Thu, Aug 8 2013 1:01 AM
>> For carbon neutral steam ..<<
Can’t ‘believe’ in ‘carbon neutral’ combustion of carbons – *any* ( !! ) plants used for this latest fraud only grow where *other* plants had grown before which now are taken away for these ‘carbon neutral carbon production plants’ – and that’s not even accounting for carbon burnt in heat generation for processing these plants into useable oils !
#48
Yes, coal produces carbon emissions, but some is better than others. Appalachian coal is better than the lignite that UP fired their locomotives with (some say it was mostly mud!).
For carbon neutral steam, used restaurant oil is likely the best fuel.
# 47
Yep, coal has lots of carbon, and if it doesn't look like coal when you're finished with it, and you've moved a train some in the process, you have freed up tons of carbon and placed it back in nature other than as coal. Some is worse than others, but you still need to meet the calorific requirement to move train X between points A and B. That may be with 20 tons or 25 tons, but the result either way will be lots of carbon footprint. Or, emissions.
# 46
Lois -- if you fire with Pocahontas coal, the result is almost ALL carbon emissions. "Carbon emissions" doesn't mean sooting or smoke, it means 'containing the element carbon' -- which is the major constituent of any steam coal. More specifically, the emissions are carbon dioxide (complete carbon combustion) and carbon monoxide (incomplete carbon combustion, as from reducing atmosphere/insufficient O2 in the combustion plume, or early quench).
Interestingly, steam locomotive soot and unburnt fines represent less of a 'global warming' hazard than does gaseous CO2, and less of a health hazard than nanoparticulates in diesel exhaust...
#44
Firelock, alcohol is used as a fuel in model steam locomotives (most about G scale), so there is a precedent...but think of the cost of gallons per mile...
To balance out Juniatha's eastern steam power a few posts back, I propose a NP Z-6. And a rebuild of the NP 2626. What a good looking locomotive!
# 43
CSSHEGEWISCH Moonshine, or at least something close to it, is already being used as a motor fuel. It's called ethanol.
Moonshine, or at least something close to it, is already being used as a motor fuel. It's called ethanol.
C'mon man, don't over analyze this, I'm just trying to make a joke here! BTW, moonshine's got a lot more ZAP to it than plain old ethanol. Wow! Had some stuff from Georgia one time courtesy of a fellow Marine.
# 42
Hello,
Firelock76 Yes, it's a shame about the poor old S-1, a short life because someone didn't do all the math to figure out how they were going to turn the poor girl around. Still, it's hard to believe the stodgy, conservative old Pennsy put out something like that. Maybe the Worlds Fair of 1939 had something to do with it
Yes, it's a shame about the poor old S-1, a short life because someone didn't do all the math to figure out how they were going to turn the poor girl around.
Still, it's hard to believe the stodgy, conservative old Pennsy put out something like that. Maybe the Worlds Fair of 1939 had something to do with it
Firelock,
I think the 1939 fair is the exact reason she was built that long. She was the longest rigid frame locomotive ever built, and so the world record may have been more a factor in her design than practicalities like turning her...
# 41
Think small. A 2-4-2, 2-4-2T, or 0-4-4T Forney.
How about a totally radical concept?
Build a chassis with a 0-4-0 or 2-4-2T wheel arrangement. Take a 21st century industrial gas fired boiler and place it on top. Surround the boiler with an historically accurate steam dummy wooden body. When the boiler needs maintenance, pull it off and put another one on the chassis.
If fuel is a problem, use a fireless system with a storage tank instead of a boiler. You can use an electric heater, plug the locomotive in at night, and have a supply of steam ready in the morning.
Then there are compressed air locomotives....
Kevin
*# 40*
# 39
Well OK now, I've suggested waste motor oil as an alternative locomotive fuel. Too nasty some say. I thought waste vegetable oil would be a good alternative since it would leave a "French Fry" scent down the main line. No good another poster said, it still smells like any other petroleum product.
Right. Then let me suggest a resurrection of a fine old American cottage industry, centered in the Appalachian Mountain regions. That's right brothers and sisters, I'm talkin' MOONSHINE! Ever had any? Potent stuff! Trust the Firelock on this one.
As the old song goes...
"Willie the Gambler drove a '59 Rambler, each winter it'd freeze up blue!
But all last winter he went roarin' through the timber just by mixin' in some Mountain Dew!"
Hey. we want energy independence, right? Fracking's supposed to be bad, right? We've got to use something!
Juniatha made a suggestion some months ago about using "Bommerlunder" but I'm sure the Germans need all they can make over there. They've got their own steamers to worry about.
I heard they used "Bommerlunder" to fuel the Me-163 but that's another story.
# 38
Still, it's hard to believe the stodgy, conservative old Pennsy put out something like that. Maybe the Worlds Fair of 1939 had something to do with it, you know with all the futuristic stuff going on there. Mom went to the '39 Fair, well it was easy, she's a New York City girl, and she's still waiting for her personal robot! Mom says the '39 Fair was a LOT better than the one in 1964.
Ah 1939, the year movie buffs cal the "Watershed Year." More classic films were released in 1939 than any year before or since, too many to go into. Sorry, starting to drift!
It's still a pity the S-1 wasn't saved. C'est la vie.
PS: I STILL love the way it looks! Art Deco on steroids!
# 37
Hi Wayne
About Long Tall Sally-One :
Here’s Raymond the Lionlike as he admires his 'Streamline-1' ArtDeco Monster :
http://www.raymondloewy.org/gallery/vid_loc_high.html
Here’s a site with a collection of S1 photos and a so-so- text ( don’t take it too seriously ) I think she looks best on that full moon calendar painting :
http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/sunday-streamline-14-the-big
What I have always wondered about Loewy's styling is : why did Loewy make this tender engine to look like a tank engine with side tanks ? just look at these huge plain plates that cover up high wheels like an ungainly medium legth skirt : no style , no shape nor meaning , the sheets are but giant metal curtains . When in the end Crestline shop (?) had cut it all away the engine looked so much better around the dual drive sets – although the front remained a pretty messy mixture of droopy bulbous curves and short straight lines that go nowheres .
To me , this engine's contouring tells of the limits of an industrial designer’s scope to really get ‚the feeling‘ for what a steam locomotive was and what to do with given proportions and shapes of technical elements .
Good riding / derailing :
From her sheer length of engine wheel base over bogie / Delta truck she should have been a fair enough high speed straight-on runner – on the other hand , length is not all there is to high speed running and triple axle bogies are not ideal for it – at least not without some special arrangements for the middle axle . So I wouldn’t dare to say neither way …
Since she had been one of a few American loco classes having higher than 80 in drive wheels and having had power abounding she still remains my favorite for steam speed record .. if ! .. PRR would have had her in mint condition , had the straightest , level part of their Crestline – Chicago mainline refurbished to 120 plus mph mint condition and then had released her for an all power high speed run until acceleration would level out . What speed then ? .. no , you won’t read no figures from me !
The problem of derailing afaik was virulent only on the quickly laid loop at Crestline ( and probably other end of line , too ) plus a few known bad spots of sagged rail or kink in tight curve in station trackwork . To be fair , these troubles should rather be attributed to clearly inadequate quality of trackwork rather than to the engine . No question , for each and every type of locomotive adequate trackwork is indispensable , this is , has been and always will be sine qua non and applied to a plain 4-4-0 as it did to this 6-4-4-6 engine .
It would have been a great show had they stowed her away in some shed on the vast area of Altoona Works and only re-discovered her recently . However , for sure they would restore her with all those curtain plate side valances , complete with those ‚cheap thrill speed stripes‘ ( sorry Raymond ) et all . Horrible – no , I think then she’s better gone for good !
Maybe she roams the Eternal Mainlines West of steam – she was a poor wayfaring stranger while travelling through this world of woe , there is no sickness , no toil or danger in that bright land to which she’s gone .. :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV4XrbiS9R0
Whatever , anyways , that would be over the rainbow :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RDmXsGeiF8
Why Eva Cassidy ? Well just listen I guess she ‚speaks‘ for herself - and btw she also performed the above song , if you prefer :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sDyE98AGzw&list=PLC89F05DF3FC1AE69
‚The best die young‘
RIP
# 36
Calling Pennsy's S-1 unreal is putting it mildly! That thing looked like something out of science fiction! It was cool though, too bad it wasn't preserved.
The S-1 WAS a good running engine, though, I've never read anything anywhere that said it wasn't. The problem was its size, just a little too big. Too big for any of the PRR's turntables and marginal on the "wyes". It frequently de-railed on wyes to the fury of the yard crews. "If this @#$%&!!! de-rails one more time!!!!!" "ARGHHHH!!!"
Too bad, the S-1 was a flyer on the Crestline racetrack.
# 35
Hi everyone,
( reply to # 34 ) The Madame Queen - ok , she was the first of the big Santa Fé engines , however the later ones were even better ...
I for one would like to see resurrected a Q2 as the best of the Duplexi and final word in PRR fast freight , of course the unreal S1 6-4-4-6 - rather than a T1 - however with certain wanting features vastly improved , the S2 with improved drive unit to improve riding and performance , lower instant steaming load when starting , and if have one more wish free : last not least a Niagara with vastly improved cylinder tribology , exhaust and draughting . It's pretty much East Coast oriented if you like - I leave it to other contributors to balance it out ... *g*
More than anything historic however I'd like to see a *well designed* *good looking* new type like one of my ...
but that's another story
#34
Firelock, an article in Trains a couple years ago indicated that the restaurant oil powered locomotives smelled just like petroleum powered steamers.
Going back to other locomotives, I would like to see a GN 2-8-8-0, or 2-6-8-0, as they were such interesting locomotives.
I would also like to see the Madame Queen restored.
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