N&W Steam Development

[friend611]

I should explain. Since I was leading a study on valve gear in my Facebook discussion group, the Friends of the 611, I was examining the N&W's choice of valve gear as part of this study. This study appears as part of a quarterly examination of steam operation for the online newsletter I publish for the group, J Notes. As kind moderator of this thread, I truly did not want to break up your conversation, but felt it necessary to remind you of the point of the thread. Hopefully, I will be able to offer a point of discussion that is not present being offered elsewhere.
lois

[daveklepper]

A  Cantor, Rosenblat, I believe was his name, was reputed to be Caruso's nearest rival.   Although his main job was leading prayer in a synagogue, he did make concert appearences.   He made it to the Kalmbach APEX OF THE ATLANTICS by having a special PRR train to take him between two concert dates, drawing an E6s of course.  I am reminded of this by my wonderful friend Sorell Shpeyer treating me to a great concert of cantors at the Jerusalem Theatre two evenings ago.

Caruso was in bed in a San Francisco hotel when the great earthquake struck in 1906, woke up in time, and escaped to safety.

[traininsane]

We had the nickle plate ,the pennsy , the wabash and a couple of other rails running through town. I had found an arial picture at the crestline rundhouse that showed the s1 and I believe thats were I seen that they ran through Fort Wayne.

[traininsane]

thanks overmod I'll do that.

[traininsane]

I'll do that thanks

[traininsane]

That would have been great to see .My mom has a plate from the worlds fair she was also about seven when she was there.I'll have to ask here if she can remember seeing it.

[friend611]

For a new subject of interest, we might consider N&W's development of the 2-8-8-2. It began when N&W ordered the Y1 2-8-8-2 as well as the X1 0-8-8-0 to see what would be the best fit for their needs. Even though the Y1 had a primitive form of feedwater heater, it had its share of teething problems, resulting in the X1 being the more successful locomotive. However, the X1 had its problems as well, as its lack of leading and trailing trucks caused it to "yaw" in curves. N&W later borrowed a 2-6-6-2 from the C&O, which performed so well they ordered some 2-6-6-2's of their own, which became their Z1 class. The N&W's next attempt at the 2-8-8-2 would be the Y2, which was much more successful than the Y1. The Y2 in fact was used as the basis for the USRA 2-8-8-2, which would become N&W's Y3.

[daveklepper]

When we think of N&W 2-8-8-2's we think mostly of the Y5 and Y6, so your recount is imortant.   What was the Y4 and how many were built?  When did injection of high-pressure steam to the LP cylinders get introduced?

[BigJim]

daveklepper

When did injection of high-pressure steam to the LP cylinders get introduced?

Dave,
If you haven't already, check out the following web site for the answer you seek.

 http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/mallet.Html

This was the way that the ALCO built Y's and the N&W did it until the Y5 & Y6 class was converted to the external reducing/booster valve in the early fifties.

[friend611]

The USRA 2-8-8-2, based on the N&W Y2, came to the railway as the Y3, beginning reportedly when the Virginian refused the USRA engines sent to them, which was later directed to N&W. Virginian later had an impressive fleet of 2-8-8-2's, even buying some third-hand N&W Y3's. The Y4 was originally classed Y3b, and was the first Y's with a slant front cab. They also had an odd smokebox door, roughly a half-circle, later changed to the more modern round door when rebuilt. Years later, the Y4's would get the huge eight wheel tenders from the ACL 4-8-4's. The Y4's were also the last Y's purchased from an outside builder. The Y4a's (later the Y5's) were built in Roanoke, at a time when N&W transferred all of its locomotive business to Roanoke Shops.

[friend611]

The Y4a's, later the Y5's, were another small class, being only 10 Y4's and about 20 Y5's. The Y4a's were reclassed, with half the class given new numbers. Only one was not reclassed- 2092, which was badly damaged in a wreck in 1937 and could not be rebuilt. This rebuilding concurred with the arrival of the Y6 class, with the surviving members of the class receiving most of the Y6 improvements, like roller bearings on engine and tender axles, rebuilt tenders, etc. The first Y6, 2120, built in September 1936, along with the first A, 1200, built earlier, brought in the era of the "Modern Coal-Burning Steam Locomotive."
lois

[friend611]

Assuming you know the story of what happened to 2092... There were two Y6 subclasses, Y6a (built during World War II) which differed little from the original Y6, and Y6b, whose main distinction was the Worthington SA feedwater heater compared to the Worthington BL feedwater heater on the others. The new feedwater heater resulted in the first Y6b's being fitted with a oval smokebox door, until some redesign was made and they could be fitted with the normal round door. The last (beginning with 2194) Y6b's were built new with the round smokebox door. What other factors that made the Y6b unique will be discussed later.
lois

[friend611]

However, the improvements that came with the Y6b are worthy of discussion. But is anyone interested in considering the change of feedwater heater, Worthington BL to SA?
lois

[NorthWest]

friend611

However, the improvements that came with the Y6b are worthy of discussion. But is anyone interested in considering the change of feedwater heater, Worthington BL to SA?

I am interested in both.

[friend611]

I have read that the change took place because the BL feedwater heater was discontinued, but would like to confirm.
lois

[NorthWest]

I vaguely remember that the Y6as were the last to be built with them, but also need a confirmation.

[BigJim]

NorthWest

I am interested in both.

I would suggest that you take the time and go here to learn more:

 http://www.icsarchive.org/icsarchive-org/bb/ics_bb_508d_section_2517_locomotive_feedwater_heating_equipments.pdf

[friend611]

The Y6a's were the last built with the BL feedwater heater. When time came to build the Y6b's, the SA feedwater heater had to be used, so the redesign of the smokebox was necessary for the mounting of the SA. This is what resulted in the odd smokebox door for the early Y6b's. When access to the smokebox became a problem, the design was changed again so that the Y6b could have the same type of smokebox door as was on the earlier Y6 classes. 2194, as stated before, was the first Y6b to be built new with this revised design, with the earlier Y6b's coming in for modification as they became available.
lois

[NorthWest]

What I meant was that the Y6as were the last locomotives of any railroad to have the BL. Lois, I appreciate the explanation.

Big Jim, thanks for the link.

What other changes did the Y6b have?

[friend611]

That I do not know. When the first Y6b's were built in 1948 and 1949, there was still domestic production of steam locomotives by the commercial builders, though the production for American railroads would shut down shortly afterward. The Y6a's were built during the war, so there may have been quite a few locomotives built with BL feedwater heaters after they were produced. On the N&W, classes A and J were produced from the outset with SA feedwater heaters, these classes using no other type of feedwater heater. Why the N&W kept the BL for the Y6 until the Y6b but had the A and J with the SA is a discussion of a different nature.
lois

[friend611]

The Y6 also had the ability to change from simple to compound operation. First tried out on Y6b 2197 was a type of booster valve, allowing the engineer to assist the engine in starting by admitting high pressure steam to the front (low pressure) cylinders. This proved to be successful, but lead had to be added to the front engine frames to prevent slipping. This was a modification that was eventually made to all the Y6b's, and most, if not all the Y6's.
lois

[BigJim]

friend611

The Y6 also had the ability to change from simple to compound operation.

Lois,
The Y class always had the ability to change from simple to compound or vice versa. Did you not go to the link that I provided on page 13 and read?

I think that you will find that the reason for the oval smokebox door on the first set of Y6b's was because the hot water pump had been mounted under the front of the smokebox. When the hotwater pump was relocated to the fireman's side of the smokebox, they returned to the round smokebox door.

[Overmod]

BigJim

friend611

The Y6 also had the ability to change from simple to compound operation.

Lois,
The Y class always had the ability to change from simple to compound or vice versa. Did you not go to the link that I provided on page 13 and read?

For heaven's sake, Ms. Lois -- ALL compound locomotives worth anything have 'simpling valves' of some sort, and use boiler steam in the LP for starting.  The point is that at some point -- pretty quickly reached! -- they convert back over to compound operation, or Run Out Of Steam.

The genius of the 'booster valve' (and the similar approach developed by Chapelon, in France) was that it allowed the mean effective pressure in the LP cylinders to be adjusted so as to equalize the piston thrust with that of the HP (and hence to ensure that the contribution made by both engines on the locomotive would be made equal) at a higher running speed.  The default 'one-size-fits-all' expansion ratio built into normal compounds, including Mallets, ensures a mismatch between developed steam pressure at almost any speed, with the actual horsepower developed by the LP engine sometimes being laughably small.  With the booster valve (or Chapelon IP injection) the effective pressure in the LP engine could be 'boosted' to where the developed thrust from the larger pistons matched that of the HP engine, thereby getting design performance out of the locomotive.  There are other performance advantages.

I'd still like to have seen N&W expand the control work done for the M2 Automatic into a fully-proportional boosting system for LP modulation (perhaps combined with a renaissance of the back-pressure-controlled automatic-cutoff system developed in the early Twenties).   THAT would give you a class Y fully able to make power at reasonable road speed... while maintaining the advantages of compounding, including reduction of effective water rate, at lower speeds...

[friend611]

Thank you for the corrections. Would any of you like to expound further on the tests with 2197? As some of you probably know, 2197 as well as A class 1239 were used in further tests, pitting them against a F7 set of diesels in 1952.
lois

[friend611]

1239, like 2197 was unique, having the roller bearing rods that were only applied to the last five A's. 2197 was literally brand new at the time of the tests, being sent out for tests shortly after it came out of Roanoke Shops. Both engines were sent to Roanoke Shops for fine tuning before the 1952 steam vs. diesel tests, to make sure they were at their best for the tests.
lois

[Firelock76]

friend611

Thank you for the corrections. Would any of you like to expound further on the tests with 2197? As some of you probably know, 2197 as well as A class 1239 were used in further tests, pitting them against a F7 set of diesels in 1952.
lois

The Norfolk and Western steamers kicked the butt of that F7 combo, resoundingly!   YAAA-HOOO!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

They may have won that battle, but they eventually lost the war.  N&W was dieselized by 1960.

[daveklepper]

The abba F7 set tested by N&W was  intended for the UP bd wore yellow and brown and red UP colors on the N&W.  The tests were carefully evaluated at EMD and lessons learned applied to the F9, GP9 and SD9.  The GP9 was the standard all-purpose power that dieselized the N&W.

[Firelock76]

CSSHEGEWISCH

They may have won that battle, but they eventually lost the war.  N&W was dieselized by 1960.

Well that's OK, they're used to that down South.  At least no-one got killed in that skirmish, and N&W steam's got plenty of glory.

On the other hand, the last battle of the Civil War WAS won by the South, but the Southern general's name was Margaret Mitchell!

[Overmod]

Firelock76

On the other hand, the last battle of the Civil War WAS won by the South, but the Southern general's name was Margaret Mitchell!

Would have been nice if that HAD been the last battle, but (as in the original 'unpleasantness') there had to be yet another one  raised in South Carolina, famed land of the mouth passing checks a sensible brain wouldn't honor, firing off a new salvo in 1991, and then another English actress pretending to be Southern, and... well, down goes the Cause again.  ;-}

I'm not altogether sure that the test results showed a 'resounding' supremacy, either -- according to Ed King, the performance reports were more of a draw (there then being no particular economic 'advantage' on N&W at the time for reduced maintenance cost, better ability to work across multiple divisions without engine change, higher road availability, etc. which were seen as critical 'drivers' of diesel acceptance elsewhere in first-generation dieselization).

Something parallel that might be an interesting topic in this thread:  By 1951, N&W had essentially accepted that any more modern steam was going to be turbine-electric, but had rejected either the mechanical or the Bowes-drive versions of the PRR V1 turbine (going instead to individual axle-hung motors on all axles of the V1's somewhat peculiar chassis}.  What N&W and BLH actually built used, as we know, a different running-gear arrangement -- but a VERY prominent cause of the failure of the TE-1 was how cooked those traction motors became in service (and I think it takes a heap of cookin' to ruin Westinghouse hexapole motors...)   Meanwhile, the TE-1 had been advertised as being 'almost' fast enough to replace an A, but turned out (surprise, surprise, at least to some people at N&W) not to be able to deliver that speed, and for all its advantages, mechanical and thermodynamic, it wound up not being much superior to a booster-equipped Y-class (which in Newton's account always seemed to be stepping in to rescue poor Jawn  ;-} ).

And, perhaps significantly, costs and such had reached a point by the time of the turbine and traction-motor failures that the logical response was dieselization... in large part with improved designs.  Even to the extent of replacing the class Js with... well, even with fancy metalflake paint, I can't quite bring myself to say it.  (And this AFTER leasing the E units, so they did in fact go in with their eyes open...)