N&W Steam Development

[friend611]

Assuming you know the story of what happened to 2092... There were two Y6 subclasses, Y6a (built during World War II) which differed little from the original Y6, and Y6b, whose main distinction was the Worthington SA feedwater heater compared to the Worthington BL feedwater heater on the others. The new feedwater heater resulted in the first Y6b's being fitted with a oval smokebox door, until some redesign was made and they could be fitted with the normal round door. The last (beginning with 2194) Y6b's were built new with the round smokebox door. What other factors that made the Y6b unique will be discussed later.
lois

[friend611]

The Y4a's, later the Y5's, were another small class, being only 10 Y4's and about 20 Y5's. The Y4a's were reclassed, with half the class given new numbers. Only one was not reclassed- 2092, which was badly damaged in a wreck in 1937 and could not be rebuilt. This rebuilding concurred with the arrival of the Y6 class, with the surviving members of the class receiving most of the Y6 improvements, like roller bearings on engine and tender axles, rebuilt tenders, etc. The first Y6, 2120, built in September 1936, along with the first A, 1200, built earlier, brought in the era of the "Modern Coal-Burning Steam Locomotive."
lois

[friend611]

The USRA 2-8-8-2, based on the N&W Y2, came to the railway as the Y3, beginning reportedly when the Virginian refused the USRA engines sent to them, which was later directed to N&W. Virginian later had an impressive fleet of 2-8-8-2's, even buying some third-hand N&W Y3's. The Y4 was originally classed Y3b, and was the first Y's with a slant front cab. They also had an odd smokebox door, roughly a half-circle, later changed to the more modern round door when rebuilt. Years later, the Y4's would get the huge eight wheel tenders from the ACL 4-8-4's. The Y4's were also the last Y's purchased from an outside builder. The Y4a's (later the Y5's) were built in Roanoke, at a time when N&W transferred all of its locomotive business to Roanoke Shops.

[BigJim]

daveklepper

When did injection of high-pressure steam to the LP cylinders get introduced?

Dave,
If you haven't already, check out the following web site for the answer you seek.

 http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/mallet.Html

This was the way that the ALCO built Y's and the N&W did it until the Y5 & Y6 class was converted to the external reducing/booster valve in the early fifties.

[daveklepper]

When we think of N&W 2-8-8-2's we think mostly of the Y5 and Y6, so your recount is imortant.   What was the Y4 and how many were built?  When did injection of high-pressure steam to the LP cylinders get introduced?

[friend611]

For a new subject of interest, we might consider N&W's development of the 2-8-8-2. It began when N&W ordered the Y1 2-8-8-2 as well as the X1 0-8-8-0 to see what would be the best fit for their needs. Even though the Y1 had a primitive form of feedwater heater, it had its share of teething problems, resulting in the X1 being the more successful locomotive. However, the X1 had its problems as well, as its lack of leading and trailing trucks caused it to "yaw" in curves. N&W later borrowed a 2-6-6-2 from the C&O, which performed so well they ordered some 2-6-6-2's of their own, which became their Z1 class. The N&W's next attempt at the 2-8-8-2 would be the Y2, which was much more successful than the Y1. The Y2 in fact was used as the basis for the USRA 2-8-8-2, which would become N&W's Y3.

[traininsane]

That would have been great to see .My mom has a plate from the worlds fair she was also about seven when she was there.I'll have to ask here if she can remember seeing it.

[traininsane]

I'll do that thanks

[traininsane]

thanks overmod I'll do that.

[traininsane]

We had the nickle plate ,the pennsy , the wabash and a couple of other rails running through town. I had found an arial picture at the crestline rundhouse that showed the s1 and I believe thats were I seen that they ran through Fort Wayne.

[daveklepper]

A  Cantor, Rosenblat, I believe was his name, was reputed to be Caruso's nearest rival.   Although his main job was leading prayer in a synagogue, he did make concert appearences.   He made it to the Kalmbach APEX OF THE ATLANTICS by having a special PRR train to take him between two concert dates, drawing an E6s of course.  I am reminded of this by my wonderful friend Sorell Shpeyer treating me to a great concert of cantors at the Jerusalem Theatre two evenings ago.

Caruso was in bed in a San Francisco hotel when the great earthquake struck in 1906, woke up in time, and escaped to safety.

[friend611]

I should explain. Since I was leading a study on valve gear in my Facebook discussion group, the Friends of the 611, I was examining the N&W's choice of valve gear as part of this study. This study appears as part of a quarterly examination of steam operation for the online newsletter I publish for the group, J Notes. As kind moderator of this thread, I truly did not want to break up your conversation, but felt it necessary to remind you of the point of the thread. Hopefully, I will be able to offer a point of discussion that is not present being offered elsewhere.
lois

[Firelock76]

daveklepper

My grade school and prep school, Columbia Grammer, generally took us to the Polo Grounds for Giant's games, even though the Yankees usually did better in the American League than the Giants in the National.  I guess group tickets for children were easier to come by for the Giants.   So I missed out on Babe Ruth.  I did hear Yankees games on the radio, and my reward for being a Yankee fan and attending games later when I could afford it was to get a contract to design a new sound system for the stadium which lasted about 1974-1992, when replaced by one better adabted to the rock and roll and heavy metal concerts that often took place.   Not before we had supervised sound for the Pope's Mass, however.  The trips to Polo Grounds used the Ninth Avenue Elevated, a treat in itself, until we had to switch to the CC local on Central Park W. when June 1940 came with transit unification and the end of that elevated line.

The Polo Grounds!  My grandmother heard Enrico Caruso sing at the Polo Grounds in 1920, his last American appearance.  Grandma lived until 1982, long enough to hear all the great tenors that came after Caruso.  She said NONE were as good as Maestro Enrico. I've heard some digitally remastered recordings of Caruso with all the background noise removed, and you know what ?  Grandma was right!

Sorry to drift the thread, but what the hell, I'm having fun!

[Firelock76]

CSSHEGEWISCH

My experience with "more powerful than a locomotive" is based on the syndicated TV series of the late 1950's, which showed film clips of a GS-4 or SP E7A's.

Oh yeah, I remember the "Superman" series with George Reeves, the REAL "Superman!"  So does Lady Firestorm, hence the reason we call cab units "Superman Diesels."

When we were in high school in the early '70s the kids called the big blocky cars from the early '50s "Superman Cars", but that's another story. Probably a local Jersey thing.

[Firelock76]

Hi Lois!  Hey

friend611

I hate to break up the conversation, but the thread is drifting slightly off subject. I would like to begin a discussion on why N&W favored Baker valve gear.
lois

Hi Lois!  Hey, isn't there a valve gear discussion goin' on in another thread?

Please don't misunderstand, I wouldn't offend you for the world, but if Dave K. and meself are having a "remember when" discussion going on you don't have to listen if you don't want to!  Matter of fact, no-one has to listen if they don't want to.  Take it as an opportunity to go to the kitchen for a snack.

Wayne

Wayne

[daveklepper]

I guess it was the Coronation Scott.   The Flying Scotsman was the loco that toured the USA under its own steam.  Memory does pull tricks, on occasion.  I just don't remeber the N&W A, and I am pretty certain it would have made a deep impression if I had seen it.  My parents had hired a workman and his wife to help with my dad's office and medical treatment room (any cold I had meant a trip to the treatment room and an Argerol spray), as well as work around the house), and the man had been a N&W fireman, and had fired on Y's and A's.   Was it just located in a line of equipment in a yard without much signage or direction?  Could visitors inspect the cab?

[Deggesty]

Overmod

I'd think the big reason is likely to be relative ease of maintenance.  All the connections were pin-jointed and those joints could easily be given roller or needle bearings, easy to lubricate and long-lasting.  Extra mass of the frame and supports (the reverse on Walschaerts could be frame-mounted away from the hanger, not so with Baker) not a problem on one of the modern N&W classes.

There is some argument that Baker when overloaded is more prone to fail 'laterally'; there certainly were some problems on N&W, on the A class in particular, with the gear 'unraveling' (to use Ed King's poetic term) if allowed too far down in the corner at speed.  Dave Stephenson could be the one to tell us where the susceptible components were found to be...

Locomotive Up To Date mentions the lack of sliding friction as being an improvement over valve gear that used a link and block. 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

My experience with "more powerful than a locomotive" is based on the syndicated TV series of the late 1950's, which showed film clips of a GS-4 or SP E7A's.

[Overmod]

daveklepper

There was no Mallet or articulated loco at the '39-'40 WH in my my memory.

I believe the N&W sent a class A, and 'dressed it up' a bit.  I think there's a picture in Ed King's book.  But they didn't make a big 'production' out of it (perhaps they should have tried... the locomotive that Superman is more powerful than in the early Max Fleischer cartoons is, I think, recognizable as an A...)

Dave, don't you mean Coronation Scot?  There is some difference there...  ;0}

[daveklepper]

There was no Mallet or articulated loco at the '39-'40 WH in my my memory.   The S-1 was the only biggy.

I guess the N&W and C&O were too busy making money "hauling coal downhill." 

The Flying Scotsman, complete train was at the British exhibition.

[Overmod]

I'd think the big reason is likely to be relative ease of maintenance.  All the connections were pin-jointed and those joints could easily be given roller or needle bearings, easy to lubricate and long-lasting.  Extra mass of the frame and supports (the reverse on Walschaerts could be frame-mounted away from the hanger, not so with Baker) not a problem on one of the modern N&W classes.

There is some argument that Baker when overloaded is more prone to fail 'laterally'; there certainly were some problems on N&W, on the A class in particular, with the gear 'unraveling' (to use Ed King's poetic term) if allowed too far down in the corner at speed.  Dave Stephenson could be the one to tell us where the susceptible components were found to be...

[friend611]

I hate to break up the conversation, but the thread is drifting slightly off subject. I would like to begin a discussion on why N&W favored Baker valve gear.
lois

[Firelock76]

If there was a Class A at the World's Fair Mom didn't mention it.  As I said, the "America's Railroads" exhibit didn't do anything for her.

She DID see the "20th Century Limited"  at Grand Central Terminal on a number of occasions.  As a matter of fact, Mom says that GCT was quite a show in itself, and a great place for spotting the celebrities of the time.  She said growing up in New York City in the '30s and '40s was the best, lots of fun things do do, and best of all a lot were free.

[BigJim]

Firelock76

Yeah, Mom's still plenty PO'd

Did she see the N&W Class A? 

[daveklepper]

My grade school and prep school, Columbia Grammer, generally took us to the Polo Grounds for Giant's games, even though the Yankees usually did better in the American League than the Giants in the National.  I guess group tickets for children were easier to come by for the Giants.   So I missed out on Babe Ruth.  I did hear Yankees games on the radio, and my reward for being a Yankee fan and attending games later when I could afford it was to get a contract to design a new sound system for the stadium which lasted about 1974-1992, when replaced by one better adabted to the rock and roll and heavy metal concerts that often took place.   Not before we had supervised sound for the Pope's Mass, however.  The trips to Polo Grounds used the Ninth Avenue Elevated, a treat in itself, until we had to switch to the CC local on Central Park W. when June 1940 came with transit unification and the end of that elevated line.

[Firelock76]

Hi Dave!

Yeah, Mom's still plenty PO'd that the "World of Tomorrow" she saw in the GM pavilion hasn't shown up yet.  Or if it has, it sure doesn't look like what they promised.

My father didn't make it to the World's Fair at all, but what he's really upset about is missing Lou Gehrigs farewell, you know the "..luckiest man on the face of the Earth..."  speech.  As Dad told me he was going to play baseball himself that day and, well, you didn't watch someone else do something you had the chance to do yourself.  He regrets the choice to this day.

He DID see Babe Ruth's last appearance at Yankee Stadium in 1948, he wasn't going to miss THAT one!  But you know, in the end he was sorry he went.  The Babe wasn't "The Babe" anymore, Dad said it was like watching a ghost.  Everyone in the seats around him was weeping.  Hard day for all.

Wayne

[daveklepper]

Well, the GM exhibit had a model world of tomorrow that was pretty impressive, with of course superhighways going everywhere, but with a minor model railroad built in as well.   They also had an E3 A unit with the side panels replaced by glass so you could see the diesel and generator and other equipment.  Spottlessly clean and painted to differentiate the equipment.  And cars of the future, of course.

[Firelock76]

Hi Dave!

You know, it's interesting how kids can come away with different impressions of things.  As you know, my mother being a New York City girl was also at the '39 Worlds Fair, 11 years old at the time.  She wasn't impressed with the "American Railroads" exhibit, but absolutely LOVED the GM exhibit, and remembers it well to this day.

She also wishes she'd kept all the hand-out stuff she got at the Fair.  "I had more crap than I knew what to do with!"  she says, and threw it all out years ago.  "Who knew the stuff would be worth money now?"  she says.  Who knew indeed?

Wayne

[daveklepper]

Not only did I see it, but both in 1939 and in 1940 it was not a static display.   Its boilder made steam, the steam was admitted to the cylinders, all four, the rods went back and, the driving wheels revolved, since the drivers were located on rollers as used in locomotive test plants.   My understanding was that when not at the NY Worlds Fair, she was used between Crestline and Chicago until war made maintenance of one of a kind impractical, and she was sidelined.

[Firelock76]

traininsane

I live in Fort Wayne Indiana and have heard that the S1 ran through ft wayne from crestline I'm guessing that this is the area of the prr 's racetrack is this true.I'm new around here and have been trying to learn about our local railroad history since I have gotten involved with the NKP765 berkshire hear in the Fort. This is quite the journey, and I'm loving it. So any help I can get would be great.

I'll tell you what, if you "Google" search  the Pennsy S1, what our frequent poster and commentator Juniatha calls "Long Tall Sally-1"  you'll find a whole cornucopia of information on that fascinating locomotive.  That's if you haven't done so already.

Another of our frequent posters daveklepper actually saw the S1 at the 1939-1940 Worlds Fair in New York, he was seven years old at the time and never forgot it.  The impression he gave me was that his parents had a hard time dragging him away from it, and the "Americas Railroads" exhibit as well.