The D&H Challengers were a good visual competitor, very handsome locomotives in my view, and good performers also.
'Easy on the eyes' is an understatement.
Every bit as neat and pretty as a GS4, in my opinion.
How many other articulated locomotives -- dual-service or not -- had that kind of trim?
OvermodI'm glad, if more than a little surprised, that there is an AC-9 to restore.
I didn't mean to suggest that there is an AC-9 that can be restored. I was only suggesting that it was one of the more handsome steam locomotives. Purely from an aesthetic point of view, the AC-9 was very easy on the eyes.
ChuckAllen, TX
OvermodWell, I wasn't aware there were cab-forward AC-9s.
That's because there weren't any AC-9 cab forwards. All other SP AC classes were cab forward except the AC-9.
I'm glad, if more than a little surprised, that there is an AC-9 to restore.
Where is it located?
[Disclaimer: there are FAR better locomotives to 're-create' for excursion service from scratch than an AC-9. Few of them are articulated: start with something 'small' like a MILW A, and then work up to Hudson or Niagara... I have more when those are done ;-} ]
eagle1030Random thought: maybe everybody likes Big Boys because they're relatively handsome. The Alleghenies and Yellowstones had those air compressors on the smokebox, and the Y6b had too small drivers.
You want handsome, go with an SP AC-9 (2-8-8-4). They were the only AC's with the cab where God intended a steam locomotive cab to be. (That'll draw some fire from Cab Forward lovers! ) The AC-9 looked like it was making 60 mph when it was standing still.
I can remember being a kid riding with my dad at 80 plus across Iowa on highway 30 following 844.
How about Southern Pacific Cab Forwards, with 256 in three wheel arrangements. The locomotives worked over almost Espee's entire system. They pulled everything Espee through at them. With 63" drivers they were able to get up to 60mph plus. It would be cool to see and hear her run again, especially hear her flying air-pumps on the monkey deck. Just my two cents into this thread.
Even the D&H had at least one Steamer that burned oil in Dry season. It was #999, a 2-8-0 that was converted to coal the rest of year. Since 4-4-0 (400s) and 4-6-0 (500s) ran on same line, there probably was some of them also.
If you want shear power in a pusher, the D&H had some 0-8-8-0 in the 1600 series that were only used as pushers. Like one engineer said, "they would go 5 mph no matter what was in front of them".
The D & H had the 1500 series 4-6-6-4 Challengers, that could really step along, designed for dual service, they were not used in passenger service that I know of.
Warren
Redore UP's steam locomotives run at track speed, so does MILW 261. For that matter, most of the well maintained 4-8-4's out there can run at track speed. Track speed is typically in the 49 to 59 MPH range, but probably higher on UP.
UP's steam locomotives run at track speed, so does MILW 261. For that matter, most of the well maintained 4-8-4's out there can run at track speed. Track speed is typically in the 49 to 59 MPH range, but probably higher on UP.
Interestingly enough, the last time I saw a reference to this, 844 and 3985 are rated FASTER than any existing road diesel, and I believe that included the Centennials. What I remember (this was in the early '90s) max diesel speed was 70mph; the steamers were allowed 83 (and no, I don't know why that number was used).
Do NOT start in with the discussion about why all articulated locomotives ought to be allowed the same track speed as 3985. I would be hesitant to clear 1218 for that kind of speed without a very thorough overhaul and balancing -- but she would get there, and more, with the roller rods installed. Can't think of anything else both articulated and extant that would be safe at that speed -- yes, I would include Alleghenies in this because with their extra weight the imbalance would likely kill the track geometry...
RME
Just a quick one here: After the Great Dismal Swamp wreck (another story) the Norfolk Southern steam program set a speed limit on excursions of 45 miles an hour. So, assuming a Y6b was restored to operation it wouldn't have to be a speedster anyway. It would just have to look cool!
However, as you stated, it would be way too slow.
.
bubbajustinThey would pull any excursion train you could throw at them. However, as you stated, it would be way too slow.
Oh, but soooooooo easily fixed! Perhaps even just with minor adjustment to the booster valve -- but if not, with comparatively simple (in 'today's terms') implementation of Chapelon's modulated IP injection to get the front engine equalized in thrust and torque peak with the rear. Then dynamically-balance the mains, first on a fixture and then on rollers as installed. If you really, really want to make sure, rework the joints between the forward engine and the chassis, along the lines of what Bruce advocated on Challengers. You then wind up with something that runs about as well as, say, any 2-8-2 of comparabnle driver size ... and I believe you and I could name a couple of examples of that in excursion service...
Ed King among others noted that even relatively unmodified, a Y6 could be spun up to about 45mph or so (of course, they were making far less HP than a slippery NYC Hudson at that point) -- it's arguable if many excursion trains need to go that fast. Balance them better, and track speed in this modern age of coal and stack trains could probably be reached, if necessary.
Having said that -- of course, a Class A is a better answer all around, imho. There is even valid historical precedent, if not direct example for 1218, of using dynamic balancing and J-style rods on the class A -- in fact, 5 of them were built. A little care with front-engine compliance, and ... well, when they get 614 fixed Ross will have to keep his goggles on to go as fast... ;-}
Mntrain I know this will probably get many strong opinions. First of all I Would be happy to see UP restore a BIGBOY and they were great locomotives,But if one could chose to have one large articulated locomotive to restore what would be the best from a performance stand point? HP,TE slow speed HP. My thoughts N&W y6b massive TE ,slow speed HP,50mph top speed, efficiency of compounding, C&O Allegheny Massive HP,but very heavy ,designed for higher speed HP DM&IR Yellowstone good TE designed for slow speed HP,could go I beleave 60mph BIGBOY good HP, less TE than Yellowstone and Y6b Just thoughts to ponder, What do you think?
I know this will probably get many strong opinions. First of all I Would be happy to see UP restore a BIGBOY and they were great locomotives,But if one could chose to have one large articulated locomotive to restore what would be the best from a performance stand point? HP,TE slow speed HP.
My thoughts
N&W y6b massive TE ,slow speed HP,50mph top speed, efficiency of compounding,
C&O Allegheny Massive HP,but very heavy ,designed for higher speed HP
DM&IR Yellowstone good TE designed for slow speed HP,could go I beleave 60mph
BIGBOY good HP, less TE than Yellowstone and Y6b
Just thoughts to ponder, What do you think?
In response to the Y6b's...
They would pull any excursion train you could throw at them. However, as you stated, it would be way too slow.
A good "East Ender" option would be, of course, the Class A 2-6-6-4. Can run up to 70 mph and pull the earth as well.
Someone may have already suggested that, but I'm a late-comer to the conversation.
BE safe all!
_ Justin
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
Some of the last steam locomotives being used in daily revenue service today are Garretts. There are a handfull of smaller locomotives were returned to service back in the mid 2000's by the National Railway of Zimbabwe for hauling commuter and tourist trains.
They are currently mostly used for switching around the capital city of Bulawayo...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
The largest locomotives on the road high in the Peruvian Andes back in the 50's and 60's were Garratts. I found them to be large and imposing as a youngster. They looked entirely purpose-built and no-nonsense.
Crandell
I'll have to check it out.
Garratts inhabited much of the rest of the world beyond North America. RENFE operated them in Spain, several railroads in various parts of Africa, Indian Railways, some Australian carriers and a few in South America.
Lionel Wiener's work, "Articulated Locomotives", will provide you with a pretty good background on Garratts and various other articulated and semi-articulated locomotives, including several that you wouldn't consider to be articulated.
There were that many Garretts? Really? I knew a couple hundred were built.... I'll enjoy the information and links you send on those fascinating creatures. Thank you. Does anyone know if any 0-6-6-0s survive, American or otherwise?
Hmmmm.... yeah, forgot about that beastie, you're right, it would be more practical than the Y6b.
Overmod 54light15 Garratts! I love 'em! I wish someone made one in model form but I've never sen one in any scale. Dear God, there are many! (Perhaps not easy to find, but they were made!) There is a very good model now available of the AD60 in Australia. I remember a Model Railroader discussion of one of the African Garratt kits -- probably sometime in the early Seventies; that was, if I recall correctly, a white-metal kit. Everything I remember seeing was HO, but I'll bet a hat there are others.
54light15 Garratts! I love 'em! I wish someone made one in model form but I've never sen one in any scale.
Garratts! I love 'em! I wish someone made one in model form but I've never sen one in any scale.
Dear God, there are many! (Perhaps not easy to find, but they were made!) There is a very good model now available of the AD60 in Australia. I remember a Model Railroader discussion of one of the African Garratt kits -- probably sometime in the early Seventies; that was, if I recall correctly, a white-metal kit.
Everything I remember seeing was HO, but I'll bet a hat there are others.
While thrashing about: I FOUND A LINK THAT MIGHT INTEREST YOU FELLOWS!
http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/source.html
The Garratt Locomotive
A Complete list of Garratt Locomotives
1651 were built & 1638 assembled
How about a photo of a SAR Beyer- Garratt/ alive and well around Hempstead,TEXAS! U.S.A.
(The locomotive is on a private estate, and is not accessible to the public.)
(Apparently the link has been corrupted, so I removed it. )
Subscribers to T/O .com or the web site for "Two Footers' might be able to access it.(?)
I must agree, those Virginian giants are impressive, but at 8mph I think the riding public would get bored pretty quick! The Y6b is a great locomotive, but I still cast my vote for that 2-6-6-2 C&O compound in Baltimore.
A tradgedy, still, better than none surviving.
I didn't, not specifically--but my knowledge of NP power could be improved. Another locomotive which fascinates me, since you mention it, are the GN 2-6-8-0s.
NdeM6400 Cab forwards aren't a bad choice at all......and a couple still exist for restoration, no less. I'd never object.
Cab forwards aren't a bad choice at all......and a couple still exist for restoration, no less. I'd never object.
Sorry, only one back-up survived, SP AC-12 4294.
How could you have overlooked the efficient Northern Pacific Z-6's and Z-8's?
I submitted them earlier... lol.... read my first post. I first came across references to them in Ed King's column in Trains years ago, which is well worth reading ...... Wholly remarkable engines. To my knowledge, the 48 inch low-pressure cylinders were the largest used on any railroad locomotive in the world. It was my understanding their horsepower curve peaked at 11 mph, Tractive effeort in simple mode was 176,000 lbs, and they lasted into the 50s, not quite the bitter end for VGN steam, but close. One thing is certain, they were succcessful and appealing..... Santa Fe's looked nice, too, but there were many questions about their performance and whether they fit in with Santa Fe's long-term desire to speed up the western end of their system.
How about an SP Cab Forward?
Highly Photogenic.
Designed for Oil Firing so no fuel problems wherever it goes. In addition fewer "environmental" problems related to sooty exhaust in urban areas.
Used in both freight and passenger service over Sierra Nevada as well as other parts of SP system.
Because they were designed for use over Sierra Nevada fewer clearance problems than with engines not originally designed for close clearances.
Nobody else has one.
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