Also consider the original Paducah rebuilds by the IC during the steam era.
rfpjohn I have heard that one undesirable feature of this steam chest was that, by necessity, the conversions were outside admission. This, of course, put high pressure against the valve packing, which was an invitation for leakage.
You would be correct. (For those who aren't steam aficionados, 'outside admission' means that the steam enters at the valve cylinder ends, and exhausts to the 'middle', while inside admission does it the other way. Slide valves are inherently set up for outside admission, and hence the conversion also has to match the cored passages in the cylinder block.)
rfpjohnIn a book I have on the N.F.&D. there are pictures, before and after the second world war of a Light pacific 1226, class Ps. In the pre war shot, she has the Universal conversion. Post war finds her sporting a conventional piston valve cylinder block. I'm sure someone out there knows the real story, but I'm guessing that the Universal arrangement was found to be OK 'til a major shopping allowed the opportunity to upgrade to conventional piston valves.
I suspect there may be a bit more to this story, particularly if the locomotive in question is sporting other modernizations, particularly nifty gizmos like a feedwater heater, Valve Pilot device, or Foam-Meter. Apparently a certain amount of work done to an 'older' locomotive rendered it 'new' for purposes of depreciation. Coming off the 'high' of WWII, many railroads had plenty of income that would benefit from higher depreciation, as well as (all too brief in many cases!) access to capital. So there was perceived benefit in doing upgrades to older power, even if comparatively little of the 'original' was left after the operation. This was the explanation given to me for why the Frisco Mikados in the 1350 series (1351 is in Collierville, only a few miles from me) were 'rebuilt' from 1912-vintage 2-8-0s, but with feedwater heaters, boosters, and new just about everything. I'm reasonably sure there was some of this logic in Reading rebuilding 2-8-0s into thoroughly modern 4-8-4s in about this same period.
It could be that the slide-valve/piston-valve engines in the video were from different orders. There were no visible numbers, but the wiki article I read mentioned three series. As for the Universal steam chests, the Southern Railway was a big user. I have heard that one undesirable feature of this steam chest was that, by necessity, the conversions were outside admission. This, of course, put high pressure against the valve packing, which was an invitation for leakage. In a book I have on the N.F.&D. there are pictures, before and after the second world war of a Light pacific 1226, class Ps. In the pre war shot, she has the Universal conversion. Post war finds her sporting a conventional piston valve cylinder block. I'm sure someone out there knows the real story, but I'm guessing that the Universal arrangement was found to be OK 'til a major shopping allowed the opportunity to upgrade to conventional piston valves.
rfpjohnI noticed some of the Mallets had slide-valve low pressure units while others were equipped with piston valves. After market modification?
Just as a peripheral note: There WERE 'aftermarket' conversion kits to change slide valves over to piston valves: these were called 'Universal' steam chests. Essentially a whole piston valve and its porting in a box that could be bolted to the flange on the cylinder block. If I were doing the designing, this would also involve increasing the effective throw of the valve gear, but I don't know if this was usually done (not my favorite design period!)
Port size and relative flow were limited, and the dead space was (necessarily, in most cases) greater. But it nominally preserved investment in older cylinders and, again theoretically, allowed some standard-sized parts or components to be shared between more locomotives.
With widespread adoption of superheating (which makes lubrication of slide valves much more difficult, so engines built superheated would have piston valves, and if converted would get new cylinders) and generally larger locomotive sizes, most of the demand for Universals dried up relatively quickly.
I suspect in the case of the 0-4-4-0s you are seeing different construction practice as built, not a 'conversion' from slide to piston without changing out the cylinders. (I wouldn't really consider changing the whole cylinder block from slide to piston an 'aftermarket' conversion in this sense, but wouldn't be surprised to find it happening as piston valves became more and more pervasive in practice.)
And, evidently a very durable 0-4-4-0T! In watching the video(s), whilst ignoring important chores, I noticed some of the Mallets had slide-valve low pressure units while others were equipped with piston valves. After market modification? I sort of doubt they could match fighter plane speeds, though down some of those grades they might come close for a short time! Should I be double spacing when referring to the low pressure units?
To rfpJohn: Ah, Ansaldo! I might have known! They built a pretty hot fighter plane during the First World War as well, the A-1. It was capable of 140 miles an hour when the average fighter did about 120 to 130.
The built some pretty good ships for that matter as well.
54Light54??? I resemble that remark! Nyuk,nyuk,nyuk! I've heard that the USA is the Saudi Arabia of corn. I think I see why. I can think of a better use for corn and that's Jack Daniels.
rfpjohn I guess I could make a comment about compounding the problem, but I feel that I could only present a strong argument for the first half. The second part would be much weaker and take up twice the space.
I guess I could make a comment about compounding the problem, but I feel that I could only present a strong argument for the first half. The second part would be much weaker and take up twice the space.
Except what happens when the front half isn't the first half?
In any case, the proven solution is a little moderated injection of new enthusiasm when the second half starts to flag. Not too much, not too little, and in just the right phase. The French have skill in such things, and not just in l'amour.
Now we should have enough corn to produce ethanol!
Now you know, in part, why I prefer my ethanol from grain...
Pity we're pone to making such awful puns.
I guess I could make a comment about compounding the problem, but I feel that I could only present a strong argument for the first half. The second part would be much weaker and take up twice the space. Now we should have enough corn to produce ethanol!
rfpjohn My apologies to 54light15 for mislabeling you. Sometimes I have problems articulating.
My apologies to 54light15 for mislabeling you. Sometimes I have problems articulating.
And I sometimes get my nose out of joint. But when the discussion hinges on technical points, I think we can find a way for both to pull in step.
This response is nearly as slow as a Virginian 2-10-10-2. To Firelock76: Those handsome Eritrean 0-4-4-0t's were built by Ansaldo in Genova. This is according to the Gods of Wikapedia. I looked up a video of them on Youtube (for there were other things I should of been doing) and was surprised to see they are coal burners! Really expected oil, in that part of the world. And now to 54light54: Ok , those German 0-4-4-0t's are pretty cute, though I prefer the meter gauge ones to the 750mm jobs with the nose to nose cylinders. Something about that arrangement doesn't seem right! Of course, the key to any discussion about articulated locomotives is to remain flexible.
CAZEPHYRBoth the H8 and the A class were super locomotives.
But so was the Virginian AG.
And it was lighter than the original 'scam' Alleghenies,and some references call it the model for the 1948 order of Alleghenies...
What ARE the visible differences between a H8 and an AG when backlit so the lettering isn't visible?
Overmod GP40-2Except the most power was in the middle photograph, which was C&O. True. But backlit like that, it could as easily be Virginian... and N&W took over Virginian (albeit after steam had gone) ... so... ;-} [Leads me to wonder whether we could have a Godwin-style thread on here where every post takes a certain amount of steps before bringing up N&W... or perhaps other near 'n dear subjects like Amt.... No, on further brief contemplation. No.
GP40-2Except the most power was in the middle photograph, which was C&O.
True.
But backlit like that, it could as easily be Virginian... and N&W took over Virginian (albeit after steam had gone) ... so... ;-}
[Leads me to wonder whether we could have a Godwin-style thread on here where every post takes a certain amount of steps before bringing up N&W... or perhaps other near 'n dear subjects like Amt....
No, on further brief contemplation. No.
No it was a C&O. Both the H8 and the A class were super locomotives.
CZ
rfpjohn I thought that all posts led to G5s's, eventually.
I thought that all posts led to G5s's, eventually.
And now this one has, too.
Firelock76 Ah, N&W, the power and the glory. Thanks for posting!
Ah, N&W, the power and the glory. Thanks for posting!
Except the most power was in the middle photograph, which was C&O.
All of our thoughts remind me of 1955 era when discussions like this were going on. This subject will never end as long as we talk steam!
I got to see some of the best steam built and enjoyed seeing each of those in their own glory.
And who can forget the Jawn Henry. A short life but was very strong!
That's "Old Maud" to you. It's a literary reference. (Why was there never a Shay called Babe?)
Or maybe a cross between Broom-Hilda and Mae West???
Where is " Old Maude" when we need her ? She was a cross between Brunhilda and Mae West, but that engine could pull her weight. Shimmy Shimmy rough ride.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Firelock76 Atoona's not Italian. Altoona's an old Indian word meaning "Altoona."
Atoona's not Italian. Altoona's an old Indian word meaning "Altoona."
No, the old Indian word was 'eladuni'. The phony white-bread version was 'Allatoona'... which is still different.
Personally, I think a misspelled 'Altona' is more likely, with the fancy stories about Latin derivation being excuses after the fact...
Getting back to articulated power, Isn't that the summit of the grade where the B&O used Ol'Mama-mia?
rfpjohn Altoona sounds kind of Italian. Altony?
Altoona sounds kind of Italian. Altony?
No, it would be Altooro, if you're going after Caprotti pun in hand. For the political Mussolini, you need something different -- Do I recall there was an Italian knockoff of the Zephyr shovelnose called the Ak-Sar-Benito? Or would you prefer singing a different tuna?
"Altony" is an adjective, and it applies primarily to the B&O in this period, I think.
I'd like to know who built those Italian 0-4-4-0's. It couldn't have been Fiat. You know what Fiat stands for, don't you?
Fix It Again Tony!
Some people will say you're a man who goes too far.
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