It'd be fantastic if it happens, but I'll keep a "wait and see" attitude for now.
If it DOES happen, they should name the resurrected "Big Boy" the "Steve Lee." He MADE the UP steam program what it is today.
He also thought that restoration of a Big Boy was something that belonged in the dream's of foamers and not reality.
I don't think it's a complete coincidence that this is coming to light in 2012 with him already in retirement. He seemed to think any proposal to resurrect a Big Boy was nonsense not worth pursuing during his time with the Union Pacific steam program.
He certainly played a large role in getting the steam program to where it is today, but I imagine this step if it comes to fruition is due to someone else (Even though Steve Lee is greatly responsible for the state the steam program is in today, of course)..
That is exciting news indeed! A big boy isn't much different than a challenger. I am sure it is well with in the capabilities of the UP steam shop, and it would probably get restored a lot sooner than most people would think. They could use the tender from the 844 or the 3985 as they are both ready to go. That alone would cut down a considerable amount of time and money.
With all due respect to Mr Steve lee who I have met and talked with on many occasions. What he said 20 years ago simply isn't relevant today and it wasn't even that relevant when he said it. He complained about not having any turntables to turn locomotives on. With the exception of the turntable in Cheyenne, all the steam trips from Cheyenne do not use turntables to get the train going in the other direction. They use Y's. Running a big boy wouldn't be any different than running a challenger when it comes to turning the locomotive around. I think Steve said what he said probably because he didn't want more work and responsibility to deal with.
He also cited the million plus pounds the locomotive weighed. The locomotive may weight a lot but it is also as long as two modern day diesel locomotives. The tons per axle on the drivers of a big boy is actually the same of a SD40-2. So if you are a rail joint it wouldn't feel any different having a big boy running you over, or a SD40-2. The rail today is far superior then that over 20 years ago with rail joints eliminated.
My general feelings about this news is to take it with a grain of salt. I do believe the Big boy will run again as well as the Allegheny one day. I think for some people it is just too tempting to have the bragging rights of operating the Worlds biggest steam locomotive. I also believe there is a great deal of money to be made by running excursions. Even at 300 dollars a person, a 20 car train would be sold out in a matter of weeks. Add DVD sales, souvenirs, T-shirts, etc and what ever money you put into the steam locomotive would probably pay for itself in less than a year.
We been talking about this all day on the http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/11285375699604080/page/1..back in the late 90's early 2000 the rumors where flying about restoring the bigboy for a movie....Plus Id called it wright about them trying to get the one in CA..
I'm reminded of the words of the late Jim Boyd: "Will a Big Boy run again? Of course! Why? Like Mount Everest, because it's there!"
I'll still be keeping a "wait and see" attitude on this. but oh wow....
joseywales We been talking about this all day on the http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/displayForumTopic/content/11285375699604080/page/1..back in the late 90's early 2000 the rumors where flying about restoring the bigboy for a movie....Plus Id called it wright about them trying to get the one in CA..
Joseywales;
I believe it was about 1998 when some movie producer/director (?) wanted to use the 4018 UPRR 4-8-8-4 for a production and was talking of moving it to somewhere around Sherman,Tx. for the movie. That conversation seems to go away pretty quickly, I would suspect the shear $$$$$ dollars involved in first of all moving a 1 million pound locomotive, [At that time it was displayed at the Texas State Fairgrtound, in Dallas], and then making cosmetic (?) repairs probably stunned the movie dudes?
No of course the 4018 is displayed in the 'Museum of the American Railroads' which is now relocating to its new venue in Frisco,Tx. I think it was given an overhaul just before its service life ended in 1992 (?) So you would suspect that it might be in somewhat better condition that some other possible candidates(?).
But then the TrainsNewswire article previously mentioned indicated that the subject of the negotiation was a Big Boy 4014 owned currently bey a Southern California Railroad Club around Pomona, Ca. Apparently, the spokespersons are trying to NOT stir up a lot of angst where this possibility might happen. As I previously stated in the original post. This has sort of been the 'Holy Grail' of railfans for a long time. And particularly enticing is the fact that the UPRR may be heavily involved in the mix, and even considering the possibility.
Similarly, as another poster stated, we both had heard Steve Lee negatively endorse the conversation of having a remaining Big Boy back in service. I would be fraught with problems running such a large engine around,las is done with the 3985, or even the 844, Clearance issues could be problematic in some areas; Remember in '92 when the 3985 clipped a coal hopper on CSX over in Eastern Kentucky? I would suspect not much more than the pre-planning that takes place before a run is planned (clearance and obsticales surveys by Steam Crew) for either of the current big steam locomotives.
Lots of us sure hope that the UPRR can pull this off ! Personally, I'd love to be trackside when one of those 4000's roll by.
I saw 4018 in Dallas about 15 or so years ago, at the Fairgrounds location. It looked well cared for and in very good exterior condition. The only things wrong i could see were the piston rods had been cut. Why? your guess is as good as mine. To make it easier to move "dead in tow"?
By the way, if you've never stood next to a Big Boy when you do the size of the thing will take your breath away. I'd ridden behind the Norfolk & Western Class A 1218, a big engine in it's own right, but the Dallas Big Boy made it look like a dwarf!
Of couse, that just shows you what geniuses N&W had working for them, getting that much power in such a small package.
I was chit chatting with some people today who have inside knowledge of this project and I can confirm that this is indeed a project of the UP along with some other group who wants to fund it. I tried to get what I could but they are staying tight lipped for now. They said it had something to do with the 150th anniversary of the driving of the golden spike in Utah and there was big plans in 2019 for the celebration.
They cut the rods of steam locomotives so the pistons don't seize up and lock the wheels up. With out steam there is no lubrication. The alternative is to remove the side rods which is what most people do now when towing dead steam locomotives.
Thomas 9011They cut the rods of steam locomotives so the pistons don't seize up and lock the wheels up. With out steam there is no lubrication. The alternative is to remove the side rods which is what most people do now when towing dead steam locomotives...
Well, actually, no, I believe you're confusing removing the piston rods with removing the main rods.
Simply unkeying the piston rod from the crosshead and running the whole piston-rod-and-piston assembly all the way forward in the cylinder may provide enough clearance to move the locomotive without any further distress. With more work, the cylinder heads could be pulled and the pistons extracted, but there's a lot more work involved, including dressing the end of the rod and keeping things parallel so you don't mess up the seal at the rear cylinder head.
You will still need to provide lube to the crossheads, but the Big Boy uses a mechanical lubricator and there is no problem assuring this even without steam to the locomotive.
You do have to disable the valve drive, usually most easily by removing the eccentric rod, since there's no atomized lube to those pistons either.
Taking the main rod down was a usual method in 'classic steam' days for recovering a road failure, as it was relatively quick and allowed the locomotive to 'work steam' on the other side (the valve drive being disconnected and valve blocked at mid to keep the loose piston from slamming back and forth) to get it off the main as expediently as possible. It is NOT imho the preferred way to move a locomotive, especially over long distances, as a bobweight equal to the rotating mass of the rod plus the calculated percentage of reciprocating mass for overbalance needs to be provided on the main pin. (Avoid this and you will hammer the track, surprisingly heavily at a surprisingly low speed!)
Might also be mentioned that handling the removed rods themselves is a massive task (pun intended) on large modern power, especially complicated (though not in the Big Boys' case, obviously) when roller bearings are involved.
Just to clarify the point: the only requirement for steam is to atomize heavy cylinder lube and spread the resulting 'fog' over the cylinder walls. In the absence of hot steam that has to be well-sealed by the rings, there isn't any need for steam oil, and some method of providing temporary 'spray nozzles' for light oil that would keep the weight-bearing parts of the cylinder lubricated would not be difficult to design or provide... at least on preserved steam power.
RME
To Thomas 9011: Yes, I guess cutting the rods so the pistons don't move without lube makes sense, especially when at the time they thought there was no way the locomotive was ever going to be run again. Oh well, none of us are issued crystal balls when we're born, and we've got no way of guessing the future.
I'm of the opinion that this falls under the heading of wishful thinking. The question that nobody is asking is "What does UP get out of it?". 844 and 3985 already provide immense p/r value to Union Pacific and it's getting more difficult and expensive to maintain them in running condition. I don't think that rebuilding a Big Boy is going to generate enough press in the world at large to justify the expense.
True, it does sound optimistic and questionable. I wonder, since a 150th only rolls around once, and then only after a long time in modern history, that they don't have some grandstanding to do that would be great if they could show this immense Leviathan under her own power for the first time in 65 years, wowing the attentive public, and providing thrills to steam fans for the next six or seven years until it is retired once again.
Crandell
Where would they get the boiler rebuilt to the latest Federal regulations?
It would likely require a full complete replacement to meet those new standards. Thats no easy feat and has been the deathnail of many steam restoration programs. I remember many years ago somewhere a quote that $5 million dollars would be required to get a Big Boy operational, I thought that was ridiculously low, I figure between $15-20M would be a more reasonable expectation.
BTW for comparisons, the British Peppercorn A-1 Tornado cost $5M to build from scratch, and that was a much smaller Pacific, a Big Boy is a whole different league of locomotive.
One other question, where would they turn it around? a custom wye would need to be built somewhere as there are no longer any turntables big enough ( or simply left) that could accomplish that. So as much as this idea has appeal, it has some very real challenges to overcome before it happens.
Have fun with your trains
It's a good thought, but do the 844 or 3985 have names? I say just dedicate the loco to him. That would give Steve the honor, and keep the loco on the same level as the Challenger and Northern. (naming it would be wierd...)
At the risk of being overly suspicious... Did April First come a bit early?
I'll believe it when Big Boy comes over Tennessee Pass on its way to the Saluda Grade.
I hope it's true, but I haven't seen anything 'official' from UP yet, there's nothing on their website about it.
I worry it's a little like how this time of year, around baseball's winter meetings, you get all kind of off-the-wall rumors and speculation about trades. Someone on a sports-talk radio station in Boston says it would be great if the Red Sox could acquire Joe Mauer. A couple of hours later, someone on MLB tv reports a rumor of the Red Sox being in negotiations to acquire Joe, and a couple of hours after that ESPN is reporting Joe Mauer's been sold to the Red Sox for $50-million and a year's supply of popcorn.
Firelock76 It'd be fantastic if it happens, but I'll keep a "wait and see" attitude for now. If it DOES happen, they should name the resurrected "Big Boy" the "Steve Lee." He MADE the UP steam program what it is today.
I am reminded of a pin that Steve Lee wore at times: It simply was a series of letters:
M.O.W.S. underneath the letters was written Manager of Weird [ Stuff} ] .
I have left the true "S" meaning to the reader/s' imagination; in deference to younger readers.The adults will understand, and realize that a statement on a pin that many years old would be prophetic. Indeed, If a 4000 class came back to life and was named after Steve Lee, a guy who fancied himself as a manager of weird stuff. Indeed!
ANYTHING can be restored to operation - it only takes three things in massive quantities - Will, Skill & Money!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Lady Firestorm's excited about this. She can't wait to stand to a live 4000 and say "Hey Big Boy, new in town?"
At any rate, "if and when", I wouldn't expect a Big Boy to travel very far from its original stomping grounds. It MAY come east as far as Nebraska, it MIGHT go into Utah, but clearances everywhere else might be problematic, unless someone really does their homework. Hey, I'll go west to see it!
I don't think clearance will be a problem at all. Have you seen those windmill trains? One blade takes up a car and a half of the longest flat cars you can get. That blade it totally straight. I know if you put one of those blades at the front of the Big boy and see which one is the longest the blade would probably go way past the tender. But in a technical sense, since the boiler is straight the blade just needs to be as long as the boiler which it is probably twice as long.
No matter what happens I think we are overdue to get another articulated locomotive in action. I don't think a Big boy has run in over 50 years now. A million dollars isn't that much money anymore. Railroads like the UP buy new locomotives by the hundreds for over 3 million a pop. I doubt if they would even raise a eyebrow if you put the 3 million towards the Big boy instead of a single new locomotive.
I also think they could make a good profit just from sales from tickets. There is a lot of millionaires out there who are rail fans. How much do you think they would pay for a cab ride over Donner pass? How about engineer for a hour? I would bet even at $10,000 a pop you could get lines of people for engineer for a hour on some isolated stretch of track all year round. I don't make good money but if that ever became available I would work two full time jobs to get that money.
2008 is the last year I can recall when both 844 and 3985 were both operated. Although I'd love to see a Big Boy back in operation, I have doubts that an addition to the steam program would result in an increase in steam trips. Oh, well, we can't have everything!
When SP 4449 made a Midwest trip a few years ago, the engine had to be routed differently than its consist due to clearance issues around Chicago. I wonder how many places exist in the UP system where a Big Boy just couldn't go?
Something to remember: weight restrictions can be fudged, speed restrictions can be fudged, but clearance restrictions are absolute.
Thomas 9011 I don't think clearance will be a problem at all. Have you seen those windmill trains? One blade takes up a car and a half of the longest flat cars you can get. That blade it totally straight. I know if you put one of those blades at the front of the Big boy and see which one is the longest the blade would probably go way past the tender. But in a technical sense, since the boiler is straight the blade just needs to be as long as the boiler which it is probably twice as long. No matter what happens I think we are overdue to get another articulated locomotive in action. I don't think a Big boy has run in over 50 years now. A million dollars isn't that much money anymore. Railroads like the UP buy new locomotives by the hundreds for over 3 million a pop. I doubt if they would even raise a eyebrow if you put the 3 million towards the Big boy instead of a single new locomotive. I also think they could make a good profit just from sales from tickets. There is a lot of millionaires out there who are rail fans. How much do you think they would pay for a cab ride over Donner pass? How about engineer for a hour? I would bet even at $10,000 a pop you could get lines of people for engineer for a hour on some isolated stretch of track all year round. I don't make good money but if that ever became available I would work two full time jobs to get that money.
IINM, many of the wind turbine parts movements have to go over special routing due to clearance issues.
As far as money goes, UP certainly has enough capital available to restore every one of the retired Steam Locomotives (and Gas Turbines) if they so chose but given that they are in the business of freight transportation rather than entertainment the concept of the UP marketing department offering 10 grand cab rides is a little far fetched (well, maybe if Richard Branson buys them out).
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Actually you would be surprised what can happen if you just ask for it. I was taking photos of the cab of the 844 shortly before it left Denver and the crew asked me if I wanted to ride with them. I said sure, and before you know It I was riding in the cab of the 844 going down the mainline.
CSSHEGEWISCH...but clearance restrictions are absolute.
Well, to one of the two parties involved, anyway.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I was just in the steam shops for a tour last Friday, and there was no mention or discussion of restoring a Big Boy to operating condition. The 3985 is still in the middle of a 1472 day inspection, and the 844 is taken apart for some maintenance between running seasons. There is only a small crew there and they have to concentrate all their attention on what they already have on their plate. The roundhouse and shop building is already full so it would be tough to even find room for another large steam locomotive. I suppose they could move the 5511 or 838 outdoors and fit just the locomotive itself in the roundhouse.
What it boils down to is that the steam shops already have their hands full.
oltmannd CSSHEGEWISCH...but clearance restrictions are absolute. Well, to one of the two parties involved, anyway.
You heard about the Army Sergeant letting air out of the truck tires to ooch under a low bridge?
How about just draining a little oil out of the wheel journals . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
The news continues...As do the talks between the Museum and the UPRR.
The following item was published in the TRAINS NewsWire on Dec 10,2012:
It makes more sense that a third party would be involved. As far as the 5511 goes, there are no plans currently for the UP to restore and operate it (too slow for mainline service). They do have an Espee bay window caboose sitting there doing nothing, so that would be easy enough. I suppose we will have to wait and see.
csmith9474 I was just in the steam shops for a tour last Friday, and there was no mention or discussion of restoring a Big Boy to operating condition. The 3985 is still in the middle of a 1472 day inspection, and the 844 is taken apart for some maintenance between running seasons. There is only a small crew there and they have to concentrate all their attention on what they already have on their plate. The roundhouse and shop building is already full so it would be tough to even find room for another large steam locomotive. I suppose they could move the 5511 or 838 outdoors and fit just the locomotive itself in the roundhouse. What it boils down to is that the steam shops already have their hands full.
From what I have gathered the majority of the locomotive work is now handled by a third party contractor based in Cheyenne. I know many of the people on the steam crew go to other jobs when the season is over. Even Steve lee, when he was running the show told me in the off season he goes back to a engineer in the yard switching cars.
I was talking to someone on the steam crew not too long and he didn't even know the basics of how a injector works. Half of those guys look like they haven't turned a wrench in their life.
It was explained to us that there is a paid in house crew of about 6, and several volunteers. Same as in a diesel locomotive shop, not everyone knows every in and out of a locomotive. Those guys work hard and have turned many a wrench in their life.
The folks working on the program are great. I wouldn't mind being a part of that, but I don't think I want to change crafts just to get in there.
Is it possible UP is looking for a Big Boy to restore, but as a non-operating display?? That might make sense, that they'd want to have one on hand for their anniversary, even if they don't plan to operate it.
Looking at the stories under "Railroad News", and the various postings, this thing seems to be taking on a life of it's own. If the Golden Spike sesquicentennial in 2019 is the target date they've got plenty of time to make it happen. If it doesn't happen there's going to be a lot of disappointed people. Not disappointed enough to march on Omaha with torches and pitchforks, but disappointed just the same.
But if I was UP I'd think twice about disappointing Lady Firestorm. I shudder at the thought.
I was recently thinking about how Norfolk southern had their heritage unveiling this year. The same year UP had their 150 anniversary. There is little doubt that Norfolk Southern stole the publicity this year in just about ever way possible. I think the Union pacific people are a little *** and rightfully so. I think Union pacific is looking for a little payback and having the Big boy in operation is a good way to have the whole World talking. If this restoration happens (and I think it will) I wouldn't be surprised if the NS brings the big guns out. Maybe the return of the 1218 or possibly a Allegheny.
2013 will be a historic year for the Big boys. One big boy turning wheels in California and another in Texas when the Dallas railway museum moves.
I can assure you that Union Pacific could care less what Norfolk Southern may or may not be doing with their limited steam program. If they follow through with this preliminary proposal, it has absolutely nothing to do with Norfolk Southern.
And the same goes for Norfolk Southern. If Union Pacific does restore a Big Boy to operation, I guarantee you that they will not be initiating a locomotive restoration in an attempt to equal or one up them. And why the heck do you think, if there was even the tiniest shred of reality in that post of yours, that they would restore a Chesapeake & Ohio H-8 Allegheny that has no corporate heritage connection whatsoever with today's Norfolk Southern?
Let's at least keep our tippy toes at least grounded here. I think your post must mean you're floating somewhere about halfway between Earth and the Moon... ;)
I don't know, Leo. Companys have egos, or at least the people running them do, and one can never be sure. Certainly the NS Heritage repaint program had a big impact, probably bigger than even NS thought it would. In my comment under the "Railroad News" column several days ago I posited the board members of UP saying "OK, let's see Norfolk Southern top THIS!" Did it happen? Who knows? It's fun to speculate on, though.
Then I remembered a Steve Lee comment back in the early 90's concerning NS's steam program: "If that wooden-axle coal hauler can keep a steam program going, I'm sure we can!" Spoken in fun, I'm sure.
Spoken in fun or being inspired by someone else's good idea is one thing, but a contest of one upmanship with multi-million dollar steam programs among Class 1 Railroads is pure fiction and doesn't exist and never will.
If Norfolk Southern ever returns the J or the A to steam for a 21st century steam program, it's not going to be because of some desire to match or surpass the Union Pacific's steam program.
Leo_Ames Spoken in fun or being inspired by someone else's good idea is one thing, but a contest of one upmanship with multi-million dollar steam programs among Class 1 Railroads is pure fiction and doesn't exist and never will. If Norfolk Southern ever returns the J or the A to steam for a 21st century steam program, it's not going to be because of some desire to match or surpass the Union Pacific's steam program.
I'm sure you're right, but as I said let's just have some fun with this and not take it too seriously. Only the professional railroaders have to take railroading's nuts and bolts seriously. I'd love to see a Big Boy running again but if it never happens, well so what? I'm not going to slash my wrists over it.
Leo_Ames I can assure you that Union Pacific could care less what Norfolk Southern may or may not be doing with their limited steam program. If they follow through with this preliminary proposal, it has absolutely nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. And the same goes for Norfolk Southern. If Union Pacific does restore a Big Boy to operation, I guarantee you that they will not be initiating a locomotive restoration in an attempt to equal or one up them. And why the heck do you think, if there was even the tiniest shred of reality in that post of yours, that they would restore a Chesapeake & Ohio H-8 Allegheny that has no corporate heritage connection whatsoever with today's Norfolk Southern? Let's at least keep our tippy toes at least grounded here. I think your post must mean you're floating somewhere about halfway between Earth and the Moon... ;)
Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy.
The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you.
I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it.
I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year. They also pull the 611 back and forth once a year to keep everything from seizing up.
Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it. It is also one of the few locomotives that was steamed to it's final resting spot. The Allegheny ran under it's own steam to the Henry ford museum where it sits today.
UP steam program is not 100% public relations.
Thomas 9011Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy.
Then you'd be wrong.
The only thing I was skeptical in regards to Norfolk Southern's heritage locomotives was the suggestion after the fact that they should gather them together for a family portrait. The thought of them pulling 60 million dollars or so of brand new locomotives for several days for photographs seemed very unrealistic. But thankfully they apparently thought the PR value was worthwhile enough to justify it.
So it was a pleasure to be wrong there. And at least my prediction at these very forums that i made about the one spot accessible on the entire Norfolk Southern system that would be appropriate if they were to do such a thing ended up being 100% correct.
I thought it was a good idea the moment I saw rumors about it. And as far as a Big Boy restoration is concerned, I've long dreamt of it happening, was extremely excited when I logged into Trains newswire the day the initial news hit, and I never thought that it was as unrealistic as it has been portrayed as over the years. And at least at one other popular forum dedicated to this hobby, I've been about the sole voice over the past week that is having any faith in there being a legitimate chance of this happening.
Thomas 9011The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you.
For starters, you don't have to tell me anything since my post had absolutely nothing to do with any of that one way or another.
And they certainly do it for far more than publicity and media coverage. If anything, the biggest intangible benefit that keeps Union Pacific's steam program alive is company morale. It's a great tool to bring knowledge of your industry's history to your employees, to get your employee's excited about your company and their industry, to bring together your employee's and their family's, etc.
The very fact that well over 90% of Union Pacific steam excursions for many years now have been employee only affairs closed to the public should be more than ample evidence that you're incorrect.
Thomas 9011I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it.
You're the one that thinks they're doing such a thing for the fun of it. I'm the one that was calling nonsense on your suggestion that they're doing things with steam just to compete with the other's steam program and that they'd spend millions just to say that they have the biggest and the best.
They're doing these things because they see value in them for a wide variety of reasons. They're not doing this because they're in some Cold War style steam locomotive race to restore the longest, the most powerful, the prettiest, or the heaviest steam locomotive in the world.
Union Pacific's decision here clearly has nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. Why would you even think they need to somehow catch up and surpass them when they have the 844 and the largest operating steam locomotive in the world with the 3985?
Clearly they don't think there is some "steam locomotive gap" that they're going to throw millions at in order to steal the thunder that you think that Norfolk Southern's program stole. Heck I doubt the excursion around Horseshow Curve, probably the highlight of the program so far, even appeared on local news media past a 100 mile radius or so from Altoona...
Thomas 9011I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year.
They already have some sort of steam program in operation.
Thomas 9011Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it.
Nonsense
Even many railfans in 2012 couldn't really tell you much about an Allegheny. They were relatively obscure 60 years ago in the railfan world even and they're even more so today.
Yet among the small minority of the public with some semblance of knowledge of steam, the Big Boy is a household word in 2012.
Leo_Ames Thomas 9011Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy. Then you'd be wrong. The only thing I was skeptical in regards to Norfolk Southern's heritage locomotives was the suggestion after the fact that they should gather them together for a family portrait. The thought of them pulling 60 million dollars or so of brand new locomotives for several days for photographs seemed very unrealistic. But thankfully they apparently thought the PR value was worthwhile enough to justify it. So it was a pleasure to be wrong there. And at least my prediction at these very forums that i made about the one spot accessible on the entire Norfolk Southern system that would be appropriate if they were to do such a thing ended up being 100% correct. I thought it was a good idea the moment I saw rumors about it. And as far as a Big Boy restoration is concerned, I've long dreamt of it happening, was extremely excited when I logged into Trains newswire the day the initial news hit, and I never thought that it was as unrealistic as it has been portrayed as over the years. And at least at one other popular forum dedicated to this hobby, I've been about the sole voice over the past week that is having any faith in there being a legitimate chance of this happening. Thomas 9011The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you. For starters, you don't have to tell me anything since my post had absolutely nothing to do with any of that one way or another. And they certainly do it for far more than publicity and media coverage. If anything, the biggest intangible benefit that keeps Union Pacific's steam program alive is company morale. It's a great tool to bring knowledge of your industry's history to your employees, to get your employee's excited about your company and their industry, to bring together your employee's and their family's, etc. The very fact that well over 90% of Union Pacific steam excursions for many years now have been employee only affairs closed to the public should be more than ample evidence that you're incorrect. Thomas 9011I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it. You're the one that thinks they're doing such a thing for the fun of it. I'm the one that was calling nonsense on your suggestion that they're doing things with steam just to compete with the other's steam program and that they'd spend millions just to say that they have the biggest and the best. They're doing these things because they see value in them for a wide variety of reasons. They're not doing this because they're in some Cold War style steam locomotive race to restore the longest, the most powerful, the prettiest, or the heaviest steam locomotive in the world. Union Pacific's decision here clearly has nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. Why would you even think they need to somehow catch up and surpass them when they have the 844 and the largest operating steam locomotive in the world with the 3985? Clearly they don't think there is some "steam locomotive gap" that they're going to throw millions at in order to steal the thunder that you think that Norfolk Southern's program stole. Heck I doubt the excursion around Horseshow Curve, probably the highlight of the program so far, even appeared on local news media past a 100 mile radius or so from Altoona... Thomas 9011I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year. They already have some sort of steam program in operation. Thomas 9011Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it. Nonsense Even many railfans in 2012 couldn't really tell you much about an Allegheny. They were relatively obscure 60 years ago in the railfan world even and they're even more so today. Yet among the small minority of the public with some semblance of knowledge of steam, the Big Boy is a household word in 2012.
As a former Union pacific Conductor and someone who makes regular visits to the steam shop In Cheyenne I have to strongly disagree that 90% of the trips the 844 or UP 3985 makes is for employees only. I think you have it the other way around. I would say at least 70% of the employees don't even know the Union pacific has steam locomotives, and even more than that could less about seeing it. I know when I was working for the UP in Portland and Seattle I would ask co workers if they were going to ride on a UP steam excursion. Not a single person wanted to see it and everyone else told me "I am around trains all day long, the last thing I want to do in my free time is be around more trains".
But you have your opinion and I have mine, and I am going to leave it at that and not even respond to the rest of this gibberish.
There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company. I've seen it, and the size of an Allegheny will take your breath away as much as the size of a Big Boy. I tried to get in the cab on my last visit but no such luck, it was swarming with kids! Oh well, we've got to recruit the next generation of railfans somehow!
Thomas 9011But you have your opinion and I have mine, and I am going to leave it at that and not even respond to the rest of this gibberish.
You clearly haven't been there in many years since public excursions behind Union Pacific's steam, their E9's, and their Centennial have been very rare events for many years now. That said, not all of those private trips are strictly for Union Pacific employees. But the vast majority are closed affairs not open to general members of the public
As for this particular line that I quoted, it's not even worth responding to. So you got that little bit right at the very least.
Ooooooh-Kaaaaay boys, let's turn it down a few clicks, all right? There's NOTHING in this thread worth starting a fight over. Nothing. Remember what I said about taking this stuff too seriously.
I wonder if Juniatha's got a little "Bommerlunder" she can pass around...
I'll just say this about the possible restoration, if there's a will, there's a way. And believe me, if they do start trying to rebuild the Big Boy, they will have my full support.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
Firelock76 There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company. I've seen it, and the size of an Allegheny will take your breath away as much as the size of a Big Boy. I tried to get in the cab on my last visit but no such luck, it was swarming with kids! Oh well, we've got to recruit the next generation of railfans somehow!
Yes that is right there is two Alleghenies. Most people think that the only railroad that owned Alleghenies were the B&O but the Virginian owned them as well. The Virginian was absorbed into the Norfolk Southern. What I wouldn't give to see a Allegheny run again.
I used to work in the shipyards in Seattle as a welder and a fabricator. Those boilers on those huge merchant ships are massive. You can fit 4 big boy boilers in one of them. They are far more complicated as well. You can look at the boilers in power plants that drive steam turbines and they are several stories tall.
Yet those get overhauled and rebuilt all the time in just a few months. If you gave the shop that overhauls and rebuilds ship boilers the Big boy boiler and told them it was a big job they would probably be laughing at you. I hope if this restoration does go through they take that into consideration because a huge part of your expenses is labor. Spending years working on the boiler doesn't make that much sense anymore when it can be done for probably 1/4 of the expense and 1/10th of the time by people who specialize in that kind of work.
They have my full support as well along with my skills which I will gladly offer them at no cost.
As I understand it, ship's boilers are water-tube, aren't they? That would certainly seem (to me) to make them a bit more complicated than the fire-tube boilers used on steam locomotives. If they can handle a water-tube boiler a Big Boy boiler should be a cake-walk for them as you say.
There is the problem of running gear restoration, but again I've heard the Pomona Big Boy was overhauled not too long before it was retired, so possibly there's no heavy work needed there.
At any rate, the UP kept several Big Boys on hand as late as 1962, "just in case". Turns out they weren't needed after all.
Steam is largely dead in the world's merchant fleets. Oil fired steam propulsion plants were fairly common for large merchant ships into the 70's and early 80's (Falling out of favor for smaller vessels a few years earlier) but then fell out of favor as large slow turning diesel powerplants advanced in efficiency. And the majority of that era has now gone to scrap since the usual life for a merchant ship on the ocean's is 20-30 years and steam is now undesirable compared to modern diesel powerplants (And for giants like what steam turbines were usually going into the last 20-30 years of their widespread sue on the oceans, lifespans were often even less).
And not only is steam almost dead in the world's ocean going merchant fleets, it's not far behind in our inland fleets on the Great Lakes. Canadian fleets are down to three steam turbined vessels with Algoma Central Marine and American operators only have a dozen or so ships left (With several having been in long-term layup since this recession hit) and are faccing EPA mandates banning Bunker C at the end of this decade which is going to kill them off as steamers.
And oil fired steam turbine plants in Naval vessels are largely a thing of the past now. Even the largest ships that had been receiving such power plants due to their power capabilities for a given amount of space, their efficiency, their quietness, and their reduced vibration as things like gas turbines took over in recent decades on smaller naval vessels are now forgoing steam for other forms of power. Our large amphibious aircraft carriers in our navy are now receiving other forms of propulsion for an example of one of the last few holdouts in the United States for new vessel construction with the traditional oil fired steam turbine plant.
Outside of nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers in our navy, steam is living on borrowed time in the USN. It's already extinct in several other large navy's around the world.
And as far as I know, comparable boilers in locomotives were extremely uncommon (Such as Pennsy's steam turbine experiment). So I wouldn't be so sure that even an experienced shipyard full of skilled workers and the necessary machinery for working on steam, which isn't going to be common with the death of the American merchant fleet and the decline in steam in what's left of it these days (Our country isn't exactly teaming with shipyards these days and what little there is is dedicated largely for Naval uses or on the Great Lakes is kept busy servicing Great Lakes customers), would be as adept at tackling a Big Boy's boiler as Union Pacific's own steam crew in Cheyenne would be.
This technology is very different from what resides in engine room's of ships.
Thomas 9011 Firelock76There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company. Yes that is right there is two Alleghenies. Most people think that the only railroad that owned Alleghenies were the B&O but the Virginian owned them as well. The Virginian was absorbed into the Norfolk Southern. What I wouldn't give to see a Allegheny run again.
Firelock76There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company.
The example at the B&O Railroad Museum has gone through a flood and was only cosmetically restored afterwards. And most of her retirement life hasn't been spent sheltered from the elements. Her first decade or more of retirement wasn't even spent secure in preservation but was rather spent on a scrap line for an example of the treatment she has received for a good portion of her retirement. Her shelter is just something that has came about since her cosmetic restoration and donation to the B&O Railroad Museum back in the 90's.
So not only do you have her size to deal with along with the normal problems associated with restoring a steam locomotive to service after decades of silence, you also have the consequences of that flood from back in the 80's that almost turned her on her side that could lead to a whole range of surprises once she was started to be torn down.
And then you have her weight to deal with which is significantly more than a Big Boy if I'm not mistaken. The problem was such that even 65 years ago when they were new, there were problems just coming up with a route for delivery from the builder.
And the other example is very much a prized display piece that I'm very skeptical would ever be released even if a miracle happened and some organization proposing an operational restoration were to approach them.
They are close sisters to Virginians examples, even though there were differences between both of C&O's orders as well as the Virginian locomotives. So I suppose you could argue that it wouldn't be completely illogical if they wanted to restore a steam giant to operation to go with one since there is an indirect connection there with a NS predecessor thanks to those similarities.
But if they were to ever want a articulated giant for a full blown steam program again (unlike the limited program they're doing right now), I imagine the 1218 would get the call. She's very much impressive, she was relatively recently in operation and is much more a known quantity where condition and what her needs would be to be restored again are cocerned, she's more connectable with their heritage, and she's much more flexible operationally than an extremely heavy 2-6-6-6 would be.
Yeah, old 1218. she was in the middle of a rebuild when the curtain came down on NS steam in 1994. Just how far they'd gotten I don't know, but she'd certainly be a good candidate for restoration should NS want an articulated back. The Allegheny's? Sure, they're wishful thinking, but wishing doesn't hurt anyone. The B&O Museums' example certainly won't be back unless someone else underwrites the cost for them, quite frankly I don't think the museum could afford it. Even it it could, the Museum's in the middle of CSX territory and CSX wouldn't allow it to run on their rails. Talk about all dressed up with no place to go! I'm sure the same would apply to the Allegheny at Greenfield Village. If someone wants to pay for the restoration I'm sure they'd go for it. Then you'd need a place to run it.
See that's the thing. It doesn't make sense to restore a big locomotive just to putt-putt up and down a few feet of museum track, and that's what makes the idea of the UP restoring a Big Boy plausible to begin with. They've more than got the space to run it. They've got the sense of corporate history to run it. So now, it's just wait and see time. I'm willing to wait, and I shall see.
Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems. Most of the ships I worked on were steam turbines (and I was working in the shipyards about 6 years ago). There is some smaller ones that use gas turbines but those are very expensive to operate and are mostly found on US Navy ships. I also worked on some old junkers from overseas that were running 4 cylinder diesel engines. You could actually open a door and walk through the crankcase.
I see little hope of ever seeing a Allegheny return back to steam. It was far too heavy even back when it was brand new. They actually had to lie to the railroad about the real weight because the railroad would have rejected it had they known how heavy it really was. I have worked on both steam and diesel locomotives and the Allegheny looks like a mechanical nightmare for a pipe fitter or a welder. I wouldn't mind working on a Big boy but a Allegheny gives me a head ache just looking at it.
Firelock76 I'm willing to wait, and I shall see.
You shouldn't have long to wait according to the newswire here.
Sounds like everything is contingent on her current owner giving her up. If that happens, barring a management shift at UP that is less enthused with the steam program, another economic downturn, or some unfortunate hidden surprises that may be uncovered when they start to tear her down to rebuild that would make it prohibitively expensive to continue, it sounds like it's a go. A lot can happen though before 2019.
Keeping my fingers crossed, but I think as long as the desire to see her in steam overcomes their sadness in losing an excellent exhibit, it sounds like her return is a good bet. The biggest problem if the sale happens is the long wait we're going to have before getting to see her under steam again.
Just a heavy rebuild can take them a half decade on something like the 844. So they're probably just going to be squeaking by in time for their celebrations for the 150th anniversary of the golden spike if everything goes as planned.
Well I won't believe it until I actually see one being moved to Cheyenne, and even then the return to steam portion could get 86'ed due to excessive costs and only get cosmetic restoration for the anniversary. This would be a hugely massive job, anyone who thinks it will be a quick easy thing to do doesn't really understand whats involved. 2013 to 2019 is only 6 years, in the restoration world that's a blink of an eye. Renovations like this can take 10 years, or more. So don't hold your breath just yet.
Thomas 9011Thomas 9011 wrote the following post at Sun, Dec 16 2012 11:11 PM: Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems.
Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems.
The big issue with watertube boilers in general is turndown ratio: they don't like running well off design power. For ships, it's relatively easy to keep a stable steam output. Not so for locomotives!
Watertube fireboxes are a different story, but again these will depend on relatively constant firing conditions, or at least reasonable consistency in where the hot parts of the combustion plume are, and relatively long firing transitions. (There were historic issues with fabrication and maintenance under typical American working conditions, but those might not be as relevant as they were for, say, Baldwin 60000 or the Emerson boxes back in the day). A general consensus seemed to be that watertube anything only made sense at higher pressure, and pressure much above 310psi required some system of compounding (if for no other reason that the peak torque in 2-cylinder DA locomotive engines begins to make them too slippery when run at required HP and speed at that inlet pressure).
Little doubt in my mind that the short-term 'fix' for PRR 6200's staybolt surprise was a watertube firebox of some sort, and IN MY OPINION there is no particular reason why a firetube convection section could not survive pressure up to the 500psi range -- you see them do so all the time in the oilfields. (You see staybolted sheets there too at that pressure, but those boilers are not moving and jolting or being exposed to sudden high steam demand...)
I also worked on some old [nautical] junkers from overseas that were running 4 cylinder diesel engines. You could actually open a door and walk through the crankcase.
Very large diesels and semidiesels are very common in modern ship construction -- more so than steam. In part this is because part-load efficiency for positive-displacement IC engines remains relatively high if crank speed can be varied... which is the case in many types of modern ship. There are some very interesting pictures of some of these, cf. from Burmeister and Wain. (And for pure dottiness, be sure to look at those honorary steam engines, the Doxfords... ;-})
I see little hope of ever seeing a Allegheny return back to steam. It was far too heavy even back when it was brand new. They actually had to lie to the railroad about the real weight because the railroad would have rejected it had they known how heavy it really was.
It may pay to remember what this problem actually was. The weight problem was critical because of the rate at which the BLE and other unions were compensated. You be the judge of how union lawyers would respond upon finding out locomotives were heavier than the railroad had been paying them for. The civil-engineering concerns were significant, but much less so than the labor ones...
I have worked on both steam and diesel locomotives and the Allegheny looks like a mechanical nightmare for a pipe fitter or a welder. I wouldn't mind working on a Big boy but a Allegheny gives me a head ache just looking at it.
I don't think it's any worse than other contemporary engines (which also had a maze of pipes and lines to various fancy systems) EXCEPT that the Alleghenies had very careful arrangements in the steam piping to and from the two engines -- you need large-diameter flow-smoothed piping with minimal transition loss at bends and joints both to and from the cylinders, and the flows need to be balanced to keep one or the other engine from becoming effectively slipperier. (In my opinion, this was the chief 'advantage' of the Allegheny over the N&W class A, and an A given the same freedom in steam lines and tracts might have made better net horsepower over the same range of speeds without the greater weight ... hey, maybe we ought to find that out... ;-} )
Except perhaps for the lead truck (for which I have no stats at hand) there shouldn't be anything extreme in an Allegheny's axle load for track rated for stack-train service -- the contact radius for the drivers is greater. Conditions of augment and balance, of course, would still remain, but these aren't necessarily worse than, say, one and a half Berkshires, except perhaps for some bridge ratings.
The question really comes down to this: the Big Boy is a famous icon of steam-locomotive history, and recognizable in a wide range of the general population as such. As noted, it is not 'that' much bigger than 3985, and an operating example would have the resources and budget of the UP steam organization to draw upon. I do not think the fame of the Allegheny as such extends beyond those of us steam nuts who recognize the details of the design... and the benefits of running one instead of, say, doubleheading two 4-8-4s are dubious at best. In short, show me the money and the plan for restoring and operating the 2-6-6-6, and I'll happily get behind it.
Thomas 9011Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems. Most of the ships I worked on were steam turbines (and I was working in the shipyards about 6 years ago).
It has been about a decade since I've even heard a steam turbine at work outside of United States Naval ships and Great Lakes freighters. I participated in helping create a database back in the late 1990's and ultimately we located less than 3,000 steamships in existence. And that included everything from ships awaiting scrapping, hundreds of mothballed USN ships that were to never sail again (Which has had a large swathe of it scrapped since then), active and inactive museum ships, and many hundreds of derelicts that were at least visible from the surface at low tide and could be seen by non divers. Active vessels were few and far between and much attrition has taken place since then of what little was left with dozens of passenger ships having been scrapped (The era of the large passenger steamship is now part of the past), the loss of most of the surviving steam on the Great Lakes, the loss of all the giant container ships and such that still were sometimes receiving steam plants into the 80's, etc.
Saltie's are things like Sulzer engines one right after another without fail. Steam is almost extinct in the world's merchant fleets for both passenger and cargo uses (Other than some experimentation with COGAS underway now where the the exhaust heat from gas turbines is then used to create steam for an additional steam turbine which is expected to get gas turbines into widespread use outside of Naval roles thanks to the efficiency increase). And it's just about dead on the Great Lakes where the fresh water gives merchant ships extremely long life's at times (American survivors will be retired or repowered by 2020, the Badger has been a victim of a witch hunt, and the three Canadian survivors are all due for replacement in the next season or two). And it isn't far away from dying in Naval roles outside of a handful of nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers that will continue to utilize nuclear propulsion. The Royal Navy retired its last steamship back in 2002 for example of the state it's in for the world's navy's (Nuclear powered ships like Britain's small sub fleet aren't typically classified as steamships even though that's what they are)
And even with new sub and aircraft carrier construction, internal combustion is making headways with a return in popularity for alternate propulsion forms for submarines and even with large aircraft carriers like England's new Queen Elizabeth class under construction now that are CODAG instead of CONAS.
Unless you were working at a shipyard that saw a lot of USN business (And even then, the amount of steam you'd see would be small) or at a Great Lakes shipyard (And steam would still be very outnumbered), I'm surprised you could've saw much of anything. The world's merchant fleet has been dominated by decades by foreign concerns and outside of emergencies, they're not going to come to an American shipyard for work to be done. And steam in large merchant vessels is a way they haven't largely even been constructed in thirty years (And for more average sized vessels, steam turbine plants fell out of favor in the 50's and 60's).
What little that is left of our shipbuilding and repair business is largely dedicated to Naval business, a little bit for the tiny bit of coastal work done a few dozen Jones Act compliant ships, scientific vessels, usually floating docks for tow vessels and such on inland rivers instead of full blown shipyard work, and a handful of shipyards on the Great Lakes that largely just service Great Lakes customers like Great Lakes Fleet (The remains of the once giant US Steel fleet).
You're lucky you managed to apparently see much of what little is left since it's just about all gone with just some stragglers left around the world in service, more awaiting scrapping, or consigned to museums.
I work for UP and by my estimate 90 plus percent of the employess could care less about the steam program or any special moves that come through their area. For people in operating crafts most of the time they are nothing but a hassle and do nothing but bring a bunch of managers out to watch you and make your day longer because every train for 50 miles in either direction is put in the hole to wait for "The Special." UP has trips that are open to the "public" all the time, in fact, most of the trips that are made have people from "the public" on them. However, they are invited guests of the railroad and you can't just buy a ticket. But they are still the public when it comes to being on the railroad. In my opinion, the steam program is nothing but a public or business relations tool and does nothing for employee pride in the company.
Skeeterbump: Interesting comment you made, something for us all to think about. Question, and I'm serious about this, what WOULD do something for employee pride in the company? Every company has problems with worker morale from time to time, mines got problems right now, in spades. Can we learn something from you? Remember I'm (and so are most of the people on the Forum, I presume) an outsider looking in. UP seems like a proud organization, is all not as it seems?
Skeeter is right. I asked about getting a ride and was told all I have to do is show up. I would have assumed there would be plenty of employees wanting to ride, but the interest doesn't seem to be there. The person I was talking to in the shop did seem to echo what Skeeter said.
I will say that the UP is a proud organization, and a lot of that is seen in the employees (at least most folks I come across). When the 844 or 3985 show up there are plenty of us that come out to see it, but only a small fraction of folks.
I don't think the Union pacific has a moral problem with its employees. When I was working there I never saw it. Although many jobs are based on seniority the railroad is pretty good at getting a job you like. I remember I was kicked off a yard job by a person with higher seniority and sent to work as a Holster. Nobody wanted to clean or fuel the locomotives. But for me it was a dream come true because I got to move them from the service area to the train which was sometimes a few miles away. I didn't even have a year with the railroad. II remember one day moving 13 locomotives all at once for about a half a mile. Believe me I was a happy person as I never thought I would drive locomotives, but as long as you have a qualified engineer with you it is considered training.
Many people believe that the majority of people who are Conductors and Engineers love trains and are rail fans. Nothing could be farther then the truth. It was actually a rarity to meet someone who knew what type of model a locomotive was or what the horsepower was. I remember talking to a engineer once and asked him if he liked the AC 6000 locomotives that we were riding in. He told me "all I know about locomotives is that they are big and they move trains".
Although I am a serious rail fan, I was riding on trains all day long when I was a Conductor. Sometimes it was from Seattle to Portland and sometimes it was just switching cars around the yard. But in either case you couldn't pay me to go ride a excursion train no matter what was pulling it. Riding trains in your off hours felt like more work. You start talking to secretaries, office workers, and others who are not near a rail yard and they can't tell you the first thing about trains. Many of them have never even been on a train before.
The only thing I saw that really improved company moral was giving them more money.
Well, I never said UP has a morale problem. Just that the Steam program does nothing for morale or the employees, it’s just a public relations tool. Sure, I took my kiddos down to see the steam engine when it came through my area but just because it holds a lot of historical importance for our country and it is pretty neat to see. I’m not a railfan myself, I got a subscription to Trains as a gift from a family member after I went to work for the railroad. And yes, the best thing for employee morale on the Union Pacific Railroad is a paycheck. That is pretty much what everyone thinks….
skeeterbump Well, I never said UP has a morale problem. Just that the Steam program does nothing for morale or the employees, it’s just a public relations tool. Sure, I took my kiddos down to see the steam engine when it came through my area but just because it holds a lot of historical importance for our country and it is pretty neat to see. I’m not a railfan myself, I got a subscription to Trains as a gift from a family member after I went to work for the railroad. And yes, the best thing for employee morale on the Union Pacific Railroad is a paycheck. That is pretty much what everyone thinks….
I have to disagree. Yes there are railfans that work on the railroad. I know who some of them are that work in my area. One of them is an avid modeler and I am told he has quite a model train setup in his house. I think that prob just about every person that works on the railroad cares about their jobs. Caring about their jobs does not make them railfans, they care about their jobs because they are good jobs with good pay and benefits and you get right down to it you really don't work all that hard on a day to day basis. Its not diggin ditches that's for sure. Also, in my observations, there are very few people who work on the railroad that find their jobs bad or to be a pain in the rear. Like I said before, seeing one of the companies steam engines was a neat experience. I mean think about how far railroads have come and to think that one of these locomotives that is somewhere near 100 years old is still out there rolling down the rails at track speed is pretty neat. However, just because people that work on the railroad come out to see something that's interesting and historical, have knowledge about their employer and its workings, or gets to be the pilot conductor for a special move and they think it is really awesome to do so doesn't make them railfans. How many people come out to see these special moves go by and what's the actual ratio of railbuffs to just interested normal everyday folks who come out to see a public event?? Heck, if I was given the chance to be the pilot conductor on one of those things I would do it. Its a once in a lifetime opportunity!! How many people are there left alive in the USA that can say there were part of the actual on duty train crew of a steam powered passenger train?? Prob not a lot and I am sure the numbers dwindle every day. Overall, there are very few "railfans" or "foamers" as most railroad employees call them, that work on the railroad. I think you are mistaking general human curiosity/interest with true railbuff interest.
"More money" has been brought up as a morale booster, and that's certainly true, we all want to make more money. But in my experience the real morale killer in any job is the "death from 1000 cuts" annoyances we have to put up with, some places more than others. Am I right?
Skeeeterbump:
I can find no reason to argue with what you have said. my only intention was to indicate that there are lots of people who work a daily grind in the railroad industry. My only intention was to point out there are any number of folks who would profess to be in the railroad business for as Firelock76 put it "More Money" that is probably as good a reason for hanging on to that railroad job, but it is an unhappy person who find no enthusiasm for their job. Money is good but a lack of interest in one's work leads to an attitude that creates an unsafe environment to work in and will lead to the potential for getting one hurt badly or even killed. Not a good outcome for anyone.
I certainly never meant to paint an individual who happens to work for the railroad as a (rabid 'foamer'). I simply meant to pint out some folks I have run across who got an opportunity to do their normal job and an opportunity to do something very much out of their ordinary routine that made a lot of the small stuff seem, maybe, more worth the hassle. I would tend to feel very badly for a person who wakes up and then has to force themselves to go to a job they hate and deal with others with the same feelings.
Firelock76At any rate, "if and when", I wouldn't expect a Big Boy to travel very far from its original stomping grounds. It MAY come east as far as Nebraska, it MIGHT go into Utah, but clearances everywhere else might be problematic, unless someone really does their homework.
All railcars conform to a particular AAR Clearance Plate diagram. I expect all Steam and Diesel locomotives do too. When the "Big Boy" was built, a big car conformed to "Plate C", such as the 80-85 foot long HW Passenger Cars on the CPR. Nowadays Class I RR's operate autoracks and double-stack cars. I would expect a Big Boy could run on a lot of 21st Century trackage, clearance wise. The weight issue is a whole other thing entirely, all of those axles notwithstanding.
What we need is for someone with access to blueprints to tell us what notation regarding "Plate ?" is there.
Happy New Year everyone.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
funny how far reaching this subject is ,i pulled up 3+ page disscusion about big boy resto on AR-15.COM lol but interms of weight it seems that its spread out over so many axles that its the avg weight of an
sd-40, which is what i have read. which if true is no issue & with double stack routes 7 89' auto cars most of the issues of yesteryear have disappeared
so anybody have an update ??? has there been any statments snice the inital trainwire article?? i know with the holidays i doubt we would have any movment on anything but after the new year i assume we
would hear something from the UNION Pacific or the 4014 owners , but of course the ambulance chasers have to write everything up before they can hint of a done deal
thomas81z so anybody have an update ??? has there been any statments snice the inital trainwire article?? i know with the holidays i doubt we would have any movment on anything but after the new year i assume we would hear something from the UNION Pacific or the 4014 owners , but of course the ambulance chasers have to write everything up before they can hint of a done deal
I would suspect that this whole affair was one of those deals were the info on the deal", was possibly floated as a 'trial balloon' by either, the folks in California, and/or the long shot in that situation, is the UPRR
It certainly created a stir in the railfan, and hobby communities. The "Big Boys'" hold an iconic status within those ranks. My guess is if there are serious negotiations taking place now, in the aftermath of the initial publicity, from now on, until a deal can be cut... and the theatrics of a major announcement made...IT will be Mums the word.
thomas81z funny how far reaching this subject is ,i pulled up 3+ page disscusion about big boy resto on AR-15.COM lol but interms of weight it seems that its spread out over so many axles that its the avg weight of an sd-40, which is what i have read. which if true is no issue & with double stack routes 7 89' auto cars most of the issues of yesteryear have disappeared
AR15.com has a railfan forum? HMMMMMM, some of our fellow Trains.com forum members who complain that the moderators here are anti-conservative might be interested (I don't use smilies, but If i did, I'd insert one here).....................................
samfp1943 thomas81z "...So anybody have an update ??? has there been any statments snice the inital trainwire article?? I know with the holidays i doubt we would have any movment on anything but after the new year i assume we would hear something from the UNION Pacific or the 4014 owners , but of course the ambulance chasers have to write everything up before they can hint of a done deal..." "... I would suspect that this whole affair was one of those deals were the info on the deal", was possibly floated as a 'trial balloon' by either, the folks in California, and/or the long shot in that situation, is the UPRR It certainly created a stir in the railfan, and hobby communities. The "Big Boys'" hold an iconic status within those ranks. My guess is if there are serious negotiations taking place now, in the aftermath of the initial publicity, from now on, until a deal can be cut... and the theatrics of a major announcement made...IT will be Mums the word..."
thomas81z "...So anybody have an update ??? has there been any statments snice the inital trainwire article?? I know with the holidays i doubt we would have any movment on anything but after the new year i assume we would hear something from the UNION Pacific or the 4014 owners , but of course the ambulance chasers have to write everything up before they can hint of a done deal..."
"...So anybody have an update ??? has there been any statments snice the inital trainwire article??
I know with the holidays i doubt we would have any movment on anything but after the new year i assume we would hear something from the UNION Pacific or the 4014 owners , but of course the ambulance chasers have to write everything up before they can hint of a done deal..."
"... I would suspect that this whole affair was one of those deals were the info on the deal", was possibly floated as a 'trial balloon' by either, the folks in California, and/or the long shot in that situation, is the UPRR
It certainly created a stir in the railfan, and hobby communities. The "Big Boys'" hold an iconic status within those ranks. My guess is if there are serious negotiations taking place now, in the aftermath of the initial publicity, from now on, until a deal can be cut... and the theatrics of a major announcement made...IT will be Mums the word..."
Well! The TrainsNewswire of this date: Jan.2,2013 has an update, referencing the negotiations concerning the status of UP 4014:
FTA:"...A Dec. 23 letter sent by the chapter's board of directors to its members, and obtained by Trains Magazine, indicates a substantial division, both in the board and the museum’s membership, as to the ultimate fate of the locomotive. The letter stressed that at this time there is no firm proposal from the railroad, and the two parties are only in the midst of exploratory discussions. The chapter's board has unilateral authority to make such a deal. However, the board decided the issue to be important enough to take a vote of the membership in the matter.Part of the proposed transaction would be for UP to provide alternate equipment for display, presumably a diesel locomotive or locomotives, to replace the Big Boy. Union Pacific has made it clear to the chapter that it would not consider a trade for another steam locomotive, as the railroad feels it is not in a position to thin its roster further.Ed Dickens, manager of Union Pacific’s steam program, visited the chapter's exhibit on the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds Nov. 30-Dec. 4. According to the board, at that time, Dickens expressed interest in the Big Boy project. If the 4-8-8-4 does return to the railroad, after restoration, the belief is that No. 4014 would eventually visit most of the 23-state railroad.
Some members are in favor of having the locomotive back under steam again, which also means returning it to Union Pacific. Chapter members in favor of a trade feel that the primary benefit, not only for the chapter, but also for the public in general, is that people will be able to see a Big Boy in action. Others are adamant that the removal of the Big Boy would weaken the position of the chapter as a viable museum. They believe that the absence of the No. 4014 will negatively impact visitor attendance to Pomona. In addition, there are concerns that if the Union Pacific operates the locomotive, the chapter would not receive appropriate recognition for its efforts.One unanimous area of agreement in the chapter: If the No. 4014 is transferred to the UP, and for some reason the restoration project fails, is for any reason canceled, or the railroad's steam program is canceled, contract must include a clause to return the locomotive to the chapter in a condition as good as, or better then when transferred.As a potential deal sweetener, the California museum has indicated that once the Big Boy is back in operation, the Union Pacific would consider operating a fan trip with the No. 4014 solely for the chapter's benefit. A counter argument has surfaced that if and when the locomotive begins system wide tours, it would rarely return to the Golden State.Union Pacific has apparently indicated that, in case a deal with the Pomona cannot be reached, the railroad has other options. That is widely regarded to mean that there are Big Boy's elsewhere in the country that are potential restoration candidates.Some members feel that loosing the Big Boy would put the chapter itself in jeopardy. Others point out that the group has other significant assets on display, including UP 4-12-2 No. 9000, SP 4-10-2 No. 5021, Santa Fe 4-6-4 No. 3450, and UP “Centennial” DD40AX No. 6915..."
So there you have it... The pot continues to boil, and Negotiations continue. Hopefully, to a satisfactory end for all parties
Well, at this point I'm putting any Big Boy restoration on the mental back burner. It'll happen when it happens as far as I'm concerned. I won't be losing any sleep worrying about it.
There's an AR-15.com site? Can't say I'll be going there. I never liked the M-16 to begin with, or any of it's clones. The M-14, now THAT'S another story!
Firelock76Well, at this point I'm putting any Big Boy restoration on the mental back burner. It'll happen when it happens as far as I'm concerned. I won't be losing any sleep worrying about it.
I'm in the same boat right now, though it would be really cool if they did start work on it.
And I feel that the museum has enough other unique locomotives that it can make up for the absence of the Big Boy. As mentioned before, they have 9000, 6915, and other unique locomotives.
AgentKid Firelock76At any rate, "if and when", I wouldn't expect a Big Boy to travel very far from its original stomping grounds. It MAY come east as far as Nebraska, it MIGHT go into Utah, but clearances everywhere else might be problematic, unless someone really does their homework. All railcars conform to a particular AAR Clearance Plate diagram. I expect all Steam and Diesel locomotives do too. When the "Big Boy" was built, a big car conformed to "Plate C", such as the 80-85 foot long HW Passenger Cars on the CPR. Nowadays Class I RR's operate autoracks and double-stack cars. I would expect a Big Boy could run on a lot of 21st Century trackage, clearance wise. The weight issue is a whole other thing entirely, all of those axles notwithstanding. What we need is for someone with access to blueprints to tell us what notation regarding "Plate ?" is there. Happy New Year everyone. Bruce
True, cars and engines are built to certain outline clearances ("Plate ?"), but remember that the Challenger, when on an excursion to the east just a few years ago, in the words of Steve Lee "remodeled a couple of coal cars" on an adjacent track in a curve. (And as I remember the photos later, the Challenger itself was "remodeled" more than just a wee scratch on the front left side, too.)
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
There is some news of some dissension within the California RR club on the loan or swap to the UP. MY thought is that the dissenters could be satisfied if the Up would agree to one California - based fan trip each year on the Club's behalf. The agreement should state that when the Big Boy is in the shop for a long time and not available for the usual date, the Challenger or the 844 should be substituted.
Semper Vaporo True, cars and engines are built to certain outline clearances ("Plate ?"), but remember that the Challenger, when on an excursion to the east just a few years ago, in the words of Steve Lee "remodeled a couple of coal cars" on an adjacent track in a curve. (And as I remember the photos later, the Challenger itself was "remodeled" more than just a wee scratch on the front left side, too.)
I understand UP told CRR "never again" after this incident.
ChuckAllen, TX
cefinkjr Semper Vaporo True, cars and engines are built to certain outline clearances ("Plate ?"), but remember that the Challenger, when on an excursion to the east just a few years ago, in the words of Steve Lee "remodeled a couple of coal cars" on an adjacent track in a curve. (And as I remember the photos later, the Challenger itself was "remodeled" more than just a wee scratch on the front left side, too.) I understand UP told CRR "never again" after this incident.
Besides that, I didn't think that a Big Boy has any reason to be heading to the east coast, other than to show it off, which I doubt the UP would do anyway since the only line that I know that the Big Boy could handle without much difficulty, as far as clearences, is Sherman Hill.
"The letter stressed that at this time there is no firm proposal from the railroad, and the two parties are only in the midst of exploratory discussions."
Well, we'll see. I work for our state government, and today is the first day of the new Legislative session. Inevitably we'll see similar things in the next months. A state rep. or senator proposes a bill - or talks about proposing one - and it will cause a big stir in the news, and then it goes nowhere - but people still get excited about it. I've seen it happen where someone talks about possibly proposing increasing say the Education Credit on the state tax return, and the day after it's mentioned on the news people start calling our office asking how they can get their share of the money that the state is giving out.
wjstix A state rep. or senator proposes a bill - or talks about proposing one - and it will cause a big stir in the news, and then it goes nowhere -
Lehigh Valley 2089 Firelock76Well, at this point I'm putting any Big Boy restoration on the mental back burner. It'll happen when it happens as far as I'm concerned. I won't be losing any sleep worrying about it. I'm in the same boat right now, though it would be really cool if they did start work on it. And I feel that the museum has enough other unique locomotives that it can make up for the absence of the Big Boy. As mentioned before, they have 9000, 6915, and other unique locomotives.
It is true the museum has some very unique and great locomotives with great past history, but the fairgrounds mentality thinking is all new and up to date latest show items. Those two three cylinder locomotives are just about the most unique locomotives in the USA. I believe the Franklin museum also has one of the special Baldwin three cylinder locomotives, but these were used for service for many years and are the remaining sole survivors’ of that type. We have been out there many times over the years to visit the great locomotives and it is a nice display. The O scale layout under the grand stands was a great show also, but it was removed. I can understand their concern about the 4014 being removed from their display. They also have the largest diesel in their display.
The good news is the 4018 in Dallas should be in decent shape for rebuilding if they really want a Big Boy back on the tracks. It was recently removed from the old location and moved to Frisco Texas for their new home. New pistons rods could be manufactured along with many other items needed to rebuild it or they could be removed from one of the others on display.
CZ
Has anyone heard any recent news?
its gonna be a while they have to do the behind scenes contracts with the lawyers & iron out alot of stuff , if & i say if the 4014 is the choice , they wanted to have it on its way to cheyenne sometime in feb
well i found pics of the 4023 steaming in cheyenne yard in 1976 but i cant figure out how to post a pic from my pc onto the thread
4023 steaming in 1976? Are you sure it was actually under steam and the steam n' smoke weren't just 'special effects" for photo purposes?
If you can't figure out how to post the picture (don't feel bad, I can't either) just tell us where to find it, we'll take care of ourselves.
no its under house steam i will link it :)
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/LocoPicture.aspx?id=37697
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1900044
Thanks for the links, Thomas! Now, I wonder why they did this? It doesn't look like there was an open house or rail festival in progress. Photo session maybe?
I think they just put a fog machine in the smoke box to puff a little smoke now and then just for fun. I have seen this done in a few other park and display locomotives. Every 10 or 15 minutes smoke comes out of the smoke box, and sometimes there is automated mechanism that rings the bell a few times.
no
Thomas 9011 I think they just put a fog machine in the smoke box to puff a little smoke now and then just for fun. I have seen this done in a few other park and display locomotives. Every 10 or 15 minutes smoke comes out of the smoke box, and sometimes there is automated mechanism that rings the bell a few times.
Or you could go to the extreme with models, props, and the like (a la Lerro Productions).
I wonder if Lee was right. It seems like I remeber reading and seeing on several train programs that when the UP put the 4000's in service they had to widen the load gauge by move the railbed anyplace they would meet another train. Could they width of the engine cause trouble in todays world. Also the UP has converted its other engines to oil firing, but the Big Boys didn't like oil firing in the days of steam so you have the added problem of providing fuel for the engine. Don't get me wrong I would love to see one in action again. I personally love to watch it out work todays lasted diesels. Just wondering.
haymaker71 I wonder if Lee was right. It seems like I remeber reading and seeing on several train programs that when the UP put the 4000's in service they had to widen the load gauge by move the railbed anyplace they would meet another train. Could they width of the engine cause trouble in todays world. Also the UP has converted its other engines to oil firing, but the Big Boys didn't like oil firing in the days of steam so you have the added problem of providing fuel for the engine. Don't get me wrong I would love to see one in action again. I personally love to watch it out work todays lasted diesels. Just wondering.
thomas81zOK why doesn't the union Pacific want to give them the 5011. 2-10-2 ? Really. They are never. Going. To restore. That beast. Strange
It has been a while, but there are talks of putting her on static display here in Rock Springs. Ill give a friend a call and see what the status is on that.
RJ
"Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling
http://sweetwater-photography.com/
thomas81z haymaker71 I wonder if Lee was right. It seems like I remeber reading and seeing on several train programs that when the UP put the 4000's in service they had to widen the load gauge by move the railbed anyplace they would meet another train. Could they width of the engine cause trouble in todays world. Also the UP has converted its other engines to oil firing, but the Big Boys didn't like oil firing in the days of steam so you have the added problem of providing fuel for the engine. Don't get me wrong I would love to see one in action again. I personally love to watch it out work todays lasted diesels. Just wondering. the " oil conversion trial" was 1/2 hearted at best they only used 1 burner out of an 800 & it was only tried just incase the coal strike came to reality , today getting it to fire under diesel/ fuel oil would not be a problem . its the 21st century there is a great debate on a pipefitter / machine forum about the big boy returning, of course everybody from fish forums to dress forums seem to have a thread about the big boy returning , but i digress the machinest forum has it pretty much solved any of the heating / firing issues. wish i kept the url . but big boy isnt any more of an issue on the rails then the 89' auto racks
You must also remember that the Big boy ran at 300 PSI. I can only imagine the fire it used to take to get it to 300 PSI. When the oil experiments were going on I am sure they were running the boiler at full pressure with the heaviest trains they could find. They also tended to do firebox experiments in the dead of Winter to make sure the locomotive could run with a full train in sub zero temps. There is a World of difference of what that locomotive was pulling then and what it would pull now.
You don't need that huge fire or PSI to pull 18 or 20 passenger cars. I know the Challenger can run all day with out refueling for oil. I am sure if the oil system worked on the Challenger it will work on the Big boy.
I know we haven't heard any recent news on the Big boy. In my experience no news is good news. If the plan didn't go through usually they are quick to tell people about it. I am sure the Pomona people are called and E-mailed constantly with people wanting to know about the status of this project. So if the plan didn't go through I can't see any reason to delay the news.
I think even if the plan didn't work out the Big boy in Holiday park would be fair game.
you make some very good points
1. it was said that they will not really get anything done till feb interms of moving it and such so until then nothing will come out offically
2 my understanding is that they evaluated all the big boys & listed them in order of condition so they will go down the list , so this isnt a 1 & done deal
3.this helps the union pacific ,if the califorina chapter cant come to terms then they will move on.
4.if they do move on & another candidate is sucessfully restored then it will look pretty bad for the califorina chapter, they will be know as the chapter that didnt want to get a steam loco restored & when you make your money on public funds, thats not something you will want to portray . so if they want to have positive light shone on them they have to complete this deal. think about it , you know how many groups are dieing for someone to come in with limtless cash and restore thier steam to running condition ,& these guys turn down such a senerio,.....wow
samfp1943 In the TRAINS Newswire date Dec 7, Pomona, Ca. : There is a story that the owners of Big Boy 4014 have been approached about a deal to get their previously donated Big Boy (in 1962) back into the UP's Steam program. It would take a major rebuild, certainly involving years to get her bacK into operations....If it did come to fruition! A sort of 'Holy Grail' for rail buffs, all over the world... The Newswire story says all contacts are currently just preliminary. What a thing to contemplate!
In the TRAINS Newswire date Dec 7, Pomona, Ca. :
There is a story that the owners of Big Boy 4014 have been approached about a deal to get their previously donated Big Boy (in 1962) back into the UP's Steam program.
It would take a major rebuild, certainly involving years to get her bacK into operations....If it did come to fruition! A sort of 'Holy Grail' for rail buffs, all over the world... The Newswire story says all contacts are currently just preliminary. What a thing to contemplate!
This was Post was originally posted by me this past December 7,2012..
Does anyone here have any further, current information on the progress.. or lack thereof of the Reincarnation of UP 4014.
Baring that return of the 4014.. any other movement to get a UP RR "Big Boy" (4-8-8-4) back on the active railroad ?
Since there seem not to have been any further articles about this subject. I think it is a fair topic top bring back up and see if the pot is stirring. Anyone add to the subject ?
I certainly haven't heard anything. The last I heard was the "Oh yeah, it's comin', it's comin'!" announcement from the UP Historical Society several weeks ago.
Now with all due respect to the UPHS, and without trying to cast any aspersions on their veracity, I'd have to say "Sorry boys, you're the Uncle Pete fan club, you're not Uncle Pete himself. I'll withhold any celebrations until the UP itself puts it out in black and white."
So far, nothing. But I will say that if Union Pacific really wants a live Big Boy on hand for the Golden Spike Sesquicentennial in 2019 they'd better get busy.
so far the only movement on big boy is the 4018 moving to frisco this week :P
FREE STORY:
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
Completely amazing!
OK, now THAT makes it official! Barring any major change in corporate management that becomes hostile to steam we should see it happen.
I'll tell you, when it's up and running Lady Firestorm and I will be headin' west. She's looking forward to leaning on the pilot and saying "Hey Big Boy, new in town?"
TODAY (July 23,2013)
THE OTHER SHOE HAS FALLEN!
Railroad Plans to Restore One of the Largest Steam Locomotives Ever Built
Story from UPRR web site linked here!
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/releases/heritage_and_steam/2013/0723_4014.shtml
FTA:"...Omaha, Neb., July 23, 2013 – Union Pacific Railroad today announced it reached an agreement with the Southern California Chapter - Railway & Locomotive Historical Society in Pomona, Calif., to transfer ownership of one of the world's largest steam locomotives, Big Boy No. 4014, back to Union Pacific.
Union Pacific plans to relocate No. 4014 to Cheyenne, Wyo., where Union Pacific's Heritage Fleet Operations team will work to restore it to operating condition. Details regarding those efforts will be made public at a later date.
Union Pacific donated No. 4014 to the historical society December 7, 1961. The locomotive arrived January 8, 1962, at its current display location at the Rail Giants Train Museum in Pomona.."
Read the link tto UP's site for additional details and contacts....
JUST WOW!
can i get a hell yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so what are they getting in return??? i have heard some coachs & a couple of diesels ??? anybody hear anything else ??
If they move the locomotive to active rail, it's 9/10 mile over the parking lot.
Brass Hat, Gulf and Pacific Railroad HO/HOn3 (Modelled to represent mid 1960's) Big Bear Lake, CA. For pictures and videos of the layout please see below:
YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/jostaiii?feature=mhee
Photobucket: http://s584.photobucket.com/albums/ss287/josta1954/
Don't hold your breath til it runs, if ever. After all 3985 has been in the shop over 2 years and is not scheduled out for another 2.
ahh thats nothing to the union pacific track crew just a bunch of snap track & tie it into the main & they are good!!
its flat & dry , they will love that, no ponds ditchs or highways to cross'
I think this event is so special they need to fly in the steam shop crew from strauburg pa to work on the big boy to get it done quicker & done right
But keep in mind 3985 is undergoing a "Class A" overhaul. Remember how long it took them to do a "Class A" overhaul of 844? about 4 years.
thomas81z can i get a hell yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You'll get a HELL YEA from me. Having told my family, and being met with a collective shrug, its nice to see some excitement on this subject.
I know theres a lot of reasons to be skeptical, but I think at this point its worth stepping back and giving UP a hand just for committing to the project publicly. I've personally never been much of a UP "fan" but this really is something to be commended.
Good point about 3985. That means UP's Steam Crew will be spread pretty thin, unless they hire more workers, or contract some of it out.
thomas81z ahh thats nothing to the union pacific track crew just a bunch of snap track & tie it into the main & they are good!! its flat & dry , they will love that, no ponds ditchs or highways to cross.
its flat & dry , they will love that, no ponds ditchs or highways to cross.
IIRC, the move of Madame Queen (ATSF 5000) in Amarillo was done with panel track, including an impromptu turntable (track ends hauled sideways) to navigate a street corner.
The biggest problem here will probably be crowd control, even if they do most of the moving at 0-dark-00.
Chuck
tomikawaTT thomas81z ahh thats nothing to the union pacific track crew just a bunch of snap track & tie it into the main & they are good!! its flat & dry , they will love that, no ponds ditchs or highways to cross. IIRC, the move of Madame Queen (ATSF 5000) in Amarillo was done with panel track, including an impromptu turntable (track ends hauled sideways) to navigate a street corner. The biggest problem here will probably be crowd control, even if they do most of the moving at 0-dark-00. Chuck
snarematt thomas81z can i get a hell yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You'll get a HELL YEA from me. Having told my family, and being met with a collective shrug, its nice to see some excitement on this subject. I know theres a lot of reasons to be skeptical, but I think at this point its worth stepping back and giving UP a hand just for committing to the project publicly. I've personally never been much of a UP "fan" but this really is something to be commended.
HELL YEA!
Oh why not? HELL YEAH and OOOOO-RAH!
Firelock76 thomas81z can i get a hell yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh why not? HELL YEAH and OOOOO-RAH!
There was (or is) a show on the History Channel called "Mega Movers" that had an episode about the moving of the "Madame Queen".
Also featured in the Episode was the effort to move a T&NO (SP) 2-10-2 also located in Texas, in this case Houston. That engine was lifted onto a set of self propelled multi-wheel hydraulic dollies for it's relocation.
I wonder how long it took for these types of overhaul back in the '40s and '50s?
This just in from some museum members: 4014 will be moved by rail in October to UP's Colton facilities to have the bearings worked on, before being moved to Cheyenne.
In the old days a major overhaul of a steam locomotive usually took about a month, more or less depending on type. Mind you, this was possible because of a massive support mechanism that existed then but doesn't exist now.
Hundreds of craftsmen, massive fully equipped shops, plenty of parts suppliers, and so on. These things don't exist like they did years ago. The work can still be done, but it just takes a lot longer now.
Just foaming here, but I can't wait until there's a shot of 844, 3985, and 4014 sitting side by side in the roundhouse.
I hope someone will take some video of the restoration of this locomotive.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boyd I hope someone will take some video of the restoration of this locomotive.
You know, that's a very good idea! You should contact Union Pacific recommending they do a documentary on 4014's rebuild, in the same manner that Norfolk-Southern did with 611 back in 1982.
Search you tube " 611 going home" if you'd like to see it.
thomas81zLatest on it is,october move to the colton shop,for bearing work then onward to cheyenne ;)
This restoration has me excited. Nothing can compare to it.
I wonder how much UP paid for it?
NOW another xchapter in this story is about to unfold:
TRAINSNewswire of this Date: October 22,2013 has this headline:
FTA:"...POMONA, Calif.– Union Pacific's Big Boy steam locomotive will take its first baby steps toward restoration the week of Oct. 28. The UP steam crew plans to roll the 600-ton locomotive and tender from its resting place of almost 52 years onto panel track to begin loosening up No. 4014 for its return to the main line. The move is tentatively scheduled for next week at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds in Pomona..."
Further FTA:"...To begin its move to UP's steam shops in Cheyenne, Wyo., the No. 4014 will travel over panel track across a parking lot for about 5,000 feet to reach a live track for an expected nighttime move onto Metrolink. That move is expected to take place in November. Once on live rails, the locomotive will travel to UP’s shop at West Colton, Calif., for inspection and public display. The engine’s 1,200-mile trip to Wyoming is expected to take place in daylight on a published schedule with display stop later this year..."
So it looks like a day that many have dreamed about is moving closer to actual reality. Thanks, to TRAINS for keeping us updated:
[ The article in the NEWSWIRE notes that TRAINS will be on hand for part of the week of preparations and will have some interviews with Ed Dickins VP of The Heritage Steam Program at UPR. ] also noted in the article: "...Trains subscribers will get full access to the interview and video of the preparations..."
TRAINSNEWSWIRE of this date 10/24/2013 Has the following headline [in part]
: " ....4014 wants to move..."
FTA:".."When we move it, it wants to move. We have to chain it down," Dickens says of the No. 4014. "Because it's a little bit down hill that way, as soon as you get it out of those little depressions it's made after sitting for 25 years, it's taking off on you. "Those roller bearings are just itching to move." No. 4014's next anticipated move should come during the week of Oct. 28, when the UP steam crew connects several sections of 40-foot panel track and rolls the Big Boy backward. Dickens says the move will lift the locomotive higher off the ground so crews can crawl underneath the engine to work on it. No. 4014 currently sits on asphalt-encased track that was laid decades ago, leaving just inches between the locomotive and the ground..."
The same article contains an exclusive, but brief, video of the interview
with Ed Dickinson in front of 4014.
So it looks like progress is being made and dates are being targeted. Can't wait to see 4014 under way towards Colton's( Ca.) UP Shops, and then on towards a rebirth at Cheyenne.
She's home in Cheyenne, Wyoming, as of Thursday, May 8, 2014.
Anyone here got video?
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
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