It makes more sense that a third party would be involved. As far as the 5511 goes, there are no plans currently for the UP to restore and operate it (too slow for mainline service). They do have an Espee bay window caboose sitting there doing nothing, so that would be easy enough. I suppose we will have to wait and see.
csmith9474 I was just in the steam shops for a tour last Friday, and there was no mention or discussion of restoring a Big Boy to operating condition. The 3985 is still in the middle of a 1472 day inspection, and the 844 is taken apart for some maintenance between running seasons. There is only a small crew there and they have to concentrate all their attention on what they already have on their plate. The roundhouse and shop building is already full so it would be tough to even find room for another large steam locomotive. I suppose they could move the 5511 or 838 outdoors and fit just the locomotive itself in the roundhouse. What it boils down to is that the steam shops already have their hands full.
I was just in the steam shops for a tour last Friday, and there was no mention or discussion of restoring a Big Boy to operating condition. The 3985 is still in the middle of a 1472 day inspection, and the 844 is taken apart for some maintenance between running seasons. There is only a small crew there and they have to concentrate all their attention on what they already have on their plate. The roundhouse and shop building is already full so it would be tough to even find room for another large steam locomotive. I suppose they could move the 5511 or 838 outdoors and fit just the locomotive itself in the roundhouse.
What it boils down to is that the steam shops already have their hands full.
From what I have gathered the majority of the locomotive work is now handled by a third party contractor based in Cheyenne. I know many of the people on the steam crew go to other jobs when the season is over. Even Steve lee, when he was running the show told me in the off season he goes back to a engineer in the yard switching cars.
I was talking to someone on the steam crew not too long and he didn't even know the basics of how a injector works. Half of those guys look like they haven't turned a wrench in their life.
It was explained to us that there is a paid in house crew of about 6, and several volunteers. Same as in a diesel locomotive shop, not everyone knows every in and out of a locomotive. Those guys work hard and have turned many a wrench in their life.
The folks working on the program are great. I wouldn't mind being a part of that, but I don't think I want to change crafts just to get in there.
Is it possible UP is looking for a Big Boy to restore, but as a non-operating display?? That might make sense, that they'd want to have one on hand for their anniversary, even if they don't plan to operate it.
Looking at the stories under "Railroad News", and the various postings, this thing seems to be taking on a life of it's own. If the Golden Spike sesquicentennial in 2019 is the target date they've got plenty of time to make it happen. If it doesn't happen there's going to be a lot of disappointed people. Not disappointed enough to march on Omaha with torches and pitchforks, but disappointed just the same.
But if I was UP I'd think twice about disappointing Lady Firestorm. I shudder at the thought.
I was recently thinking about how Norfolk southern had their heritage unveiling this year. The same year UP had their 150 anniversary. There is little doubt that Norfolk Southern stole the publicity this year in just about ever way possible. I think the Union pacific people are a little *** and rightfully so. I think Union pacific is looking for a little payback and having the Big boy in operation is a good way to have the whole World talking. If this restoration happens (and I think it will) I wouldn't be surprised if the NS brings the big guns out. Maybe the return of the 1218 or possibly a Allegheny.
2013 will be a historic year for the Big boys. One big boy turning wheels in California and another in Texas when the Dallas railway museum moves.
I can assure you that Union Pacific could care less what Norfolk Southern may or may not be doing with their limited steam program. If they follow through with this preliminary proposal, it has absolutely nothing to do with Norfolk Southern.
And the same goes for Norfolk Southern. If Union Pacific does restore a Big Boy to operation, I guarantee you that they will not be initiating a locomotive restoration in an attempt to equal or one up them. And why the heck do you think, if there was even the tiniest shred of reality in that post of yours, that they would restore a Chesapeake & Ohio H-8 Allegheny that has no corporate heritage connection whatsoever with today's Norfolk Southern?
Let's at least keep our tippy toes at least grounded here. I think your post must mean you're floating somewhere about halfway between Earth and the Moon... ;)
I don't know, Leo. Companys have egos, or at least the people running them do, and one can never be sure. Certainly the NS Heritage repaint program had a big impact, probably bigger than even NS thought it would. In my comment under the "Railroad News" column several days ago I posited the board members of UP saying "OK, let's see Norfolk Southern top THIS!" Did it happen? Who knows? It's fun to speculate on, though.
Then I remembered a Steve Lee comment back in the early 90's concerning NS's steam program: "If that wooden-axle coal hauler can keep a steam program going, I'm sure we can!" Spoken in fun, I'm sure.
Spoken in fun or being inspired by someone else's good idea is one thing, but a contest of one upmanship with multi-million dollar steam programs among Class 1 Railroads is pure fiction and doesn't exist and never will.
If Norfolk Southern ever returns the J or the A to steam for a 21st century steam program, it's not going to be because of some desire to match or surpass the Union Pacific's steam program.
Leo_Ames Spoken in fun or being inspired by someone else's good idea is one thing, but a contest of one upmanship with multi-million dollar steam programs among Class 1 Railroads is pure fiction and doesn't exist and never will. If Norfolk Southern ever returns the J or the A to steam for a 21st century steam program, it's not going to be because of some desire to match or surpass the Union Pacific's steam program.
I'm sure you're right, but as I said let's just have some fun with this and not take it too seriously. Only the professional railroaders have to take railroading's nuts and bolts seriously. I'd love to see a Big Boy running again but if it never happens, well so what? I'm not going to slash my wrists over it.
Leo_Ames I can assure you that Union Pacific could care less what Norfolk Southern may or may not be doing with their limited steam program. If they follow through with this preliminary proposal, it has absolutely nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. And the same goes for Norfolk Southern. If Union Pacific does restore a Big Boy to operation, I guarantee you that they will not be initiating a locomotive restoration in an attempt to equal or one up them. And why the heck do you think, if there was even the tiniest shred of reality in that post of yours, that they would restore a Chesapeake & Ohio H-8 Allegheny that has no corporate heritage connection whatsoever with today's Norfolk Southern? Let's at least keep our tippy toes at least grounded here. I think your post must mean you're floating somewhere about halfway between Earth and the Moon... ;)
Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy.
The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you.
I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it.
I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year. They also pull the 611 back and forth once a year to keep everything from seizing up.
Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it. It is also one of the few locomotives that was steamed to it's final resting spot. The Allegheny ran under it's own steam to the Henry ford museum where it sits today.
UP steam program is not 100% public relations.
Thomas 9011Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy.
Then you'd be wrong.
The only thing I was skeptical in regards to Norfolk Southern's heritage locomotives was the suggestion after the fact that they should gather them together for a family portrait. The thought of them pulling 60 million dollars or so of brand new locomotives for several days for photographs seemed very unrealistic. But thankfully they apparently thought the PR value was worthwhile enough to justify it.
So it was a pleasure to be wrong there. And at least my prediction at these very forums that i made about the one spot accessible on the entire Norfolk Southern system that would be appropriate if they were to do such a thing ended up being 100% correct.
I thought it was a good idea the moment I saw rumors about it. And as far as a Big Boy restoration is concerned, I've long dreamt of it happening, was extremely excited when I logged into Trains newswire the day the initial news hit, and I never thought that it was as unrealistic as it has been portrayed as over the years. And at least at one other popular forum dedicated to this hobby, I've been about the sole voice over the past week that is having any faith in there being a legitimate chance of this happening.
Thomas 9011The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you.
For starters, you don't have to tell me anything since my post had absolutely nothing to do with any of that one way or another.
And they certainly do it for far more than publicity and media coverage. If anything, the biggest intangible benefit that keeps Union Pacific's steam program alive is company morale. It's a great tool to bring knowledge of your industry's history to your employees, to get your employee's excited about your company and their industry, to bring together your employee's and their family's, etc.
The very fact that well over 90% of Union Pacific steam excursions for many years now have been employee only affairs closed to the public should be more than ample evidence that you're incorrect.
Thomas 9011I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it.
You're the one that thinks they're doing such a thing for the fun of it. I'm the one that was calling nonsense on your suggestion that they're doing things with steam just to compete with the other's steam program and that they'd spend millions just to say that they have the biggest and the best.
They're doing these things because they see value in them for a wide variety of reasons. They're not doing this because they're in some Cold War style steam locomotive race to restore the longest, the most powerful, the prettiest, or the heaviest steam locomotive in the world.
Union Pacific's decision here clearly has nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. Why would you even think they need to somehow catch up and surpass them when they have the 844 and the largest operating steam locomotive in the world with the 3985?
Clearly they don't think there is some "steam locomotive gap" that they're going to throw millions at in order to steal the thunder that you think that Norfolk Southern's program stole. Heck I doubt the excursion around Horseshow Curve, probably the highlight of the program so far, even appeared on local news media past a 100 mile radius or so from Altoona...
Thomas 9011I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year.
They already have some sort of steam program in operation.
Thomas 9011Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it.
Nonsense
Even many railfans in 2012 couldn't really tell you much about an Allegheny. They were relatively obscure 60 years ago in the railfan world even and they're even more so today.
Yet among the small minority of the public with some semblance of knowledge of steam, the Big Boy is a household word in 2012.
Leo_Ames Thomas 9011Well Leo I am hardly floating between the earth and moon. I am sure if I told you two years ago Norfolk southern would spend millions painting locomotives into every heritage railroad they ever acquired you would tell me the same thing. I think you would also be telling me I was crazy if I said the UP wants to restore a Big boy. Then you'd be wrong. The only thing I was skeptical in regards to Norfolk Southern's heritage locomotives was the suggestion after the fact that they should gather them together for a family portrait. The thought of them pulling 60 million dollars or so of brand new locomotives for several days for photographs seemed very unrealistic. But thankfully they apparently thought the PR value was worthwhile enough to justify it. So it was a pleasure to be wrong there. And at least my prediction at these very forums that i made about the one spot accessible on the entire Norfolk Southern system that would be appropriate if they were to do such a thing ended up being 100% correct. I thought it was a good idea the moment I saw rumors about it. And as far as a Big Boy restoration is concerned, I've long dreamt of it happening, was extremely excited when I logged into Trains newswire the day the initial news hit, and I never thought that it was as unrealistic as it has been portrayed as over the years. And at least at one other popular forum dedicated to this hobby, I've been about the sole voice over the past week that is having any faith in there being a legitimate chance of this happening. Thomas 9011The Union pacific steam program is 100% public relations. They run it for no other reason other than the publicity and the media coverage. The Norfolk southern heritage paintings was also 100% publicity and for media coverage. If you are going to tell me that railroads don't spend millions every year trying to get the most publicity for their railroad then I don't know what to tell you. For starters, you don't have to tell me anything since my post had absolutely nothing to do with any of that one way or another. And they certainly do it for far more than publicity and media coverage. If anything, the biggest intangible benefit that keeps Union Pacific's steam program alive is company morale. It's a great tool to bring knowledge of your industry's history to your employees, to get your employee's excited about your company and their industry, to bring together your employee's and their family's, etc. The very fact that well over 90% of Union Pacific steam excursions for many years now have been employee only affairs closed to the public should be more than ample evidence that you're incorrect. Thomas 9011I think we have well established that Union pacific is indeed trying to acquire and restore a Big boy locomotive. Do you really believe they are just doing it to have some fun? Or are they doing it because having the Worlds largest operating steam locomotive is a public relations wet dream come true. The media attention will be massive with news outlets from every town coming to do a story on it. You're the one that thinks they're doing such a thing for the fun of it. I'm the one that was calling nonsense on your suggestion that they're doing things with steam just to compete with the other's steam program and that they'd spend millions just to say that they have the biggest and the best. They're doing these things because they see value in them for a wide variety of reasons. They're not doing this because they're in some Cold War style steam locomotive race to restore the longest, the most powerful, the prettiest, or the heaviest steam locomotive in the world. Union Pacific's decision here clearly has nothing to do with Norfolk Southern. Why would you even think they need to somehow catch up and surpass them when they have the 844 and the largest operating steam locomotive in the world with the 3985? Clearly they don't think there is some "steam locomotive gap" that they're going to throw millions at in order to steal the thunder that you think that Norfolk Southern's program stole. Heck I doubt the excursion around Horseshow Curve, probably the highlight of the program so far, even appeared on local news media past a 100 mile radius or so from Altoona... Thomas 9011I would definitely say Norfolk Southern is leaning towards getting some sort of steam program in operation again since it ran some steam excursions this year. They already have some sort of steam program in operation. Thomas 9011Why did I mention the Allegheny? Because it is the only locomotive that would not only get as much media attention at the Big boy but would likely eclipse it. Nonsense Even many railfans in 2012 couldn't really tell you much about an Allegheny. They were relatively obscure 60 years ago in the railfan world even and they're even more so today. Yet among the small minority of the public with some semblance of knowledge of steam, the Big Boy is a household word in 2012.
As a former Union pacific Conductor and someone who makes regular visits to the steam shop In Cheyenne I have to strongly disagree that 90% of the trips the 844 or UP 3985 makes is for employees only. I think you have it the other way around. I would say at least 70% of the employees don't even know the Union pacific has steam locomotives, and even more than that could less about seeing it. I know when I was working for the UP in Portland and Seattle I would ask co workers if they were going to ride on a UP steam excursion. Not a single person wanted to see it and everyone else told me "I am around trains all day long, the last thing I want to do in my free time is be around more trains".
But you have your opinion and I have mine, and I am going to leave it at that and not even respond to the rest of this gibberish.
There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company. I've seen it, and the size of an Allegheny will take your breath away as much as the size of a Big Boy. I tried to get in the cab on my last visit but no such luck, it was swarming with kids! Oh well, we've got to recruit the next generation of railfans somehow!
Thomas 9011But you have your opinion and I have mine, and I am going to leave it at that and not even respond to the rest of this gibberish.
You clearly haven't been there in many years since public excursions behind Union Pacific's steam, their E9's, and their Centennial have been very rare events for many years now. That said, not all of those private trips are strictly for Union Pacific employees. But the vast majority are closed affairs not open to general members of the public
As for this particular line that I quoted, it's not even worth responding to. So you got that little bit right at the very least.
Ooooooh-Kaaaaay boys, let's turn it down a few clicks, all right? There's NOTHING in this thread worth starting a fight over. Nothing. Remember what I said about taking this stuff too seriously.
I wonder if Juniatha's got a little "Bommerlunder" she can pass around...
I'll just say this about the possible restoration, if there's a will, there's a way. And believe me, if they do start trying to rebuild the Big Boy, they will have my full support.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
Firelock76 There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company. I've seen it, and the size of an Allegheny will take your breath away as much as the size of a Big Boy. I tried to get in the cab on my last visit but no such luck, it was swarming with kids! Oh well, we've got to recruit the next generation of railfans somehow!
Yes that is right there is two Alleghenies. Most people think that the only railroad that owned Alleghenies were the B&O but the Virginian owned them as well. The Virginian was absorbed into the Norfolk Southern. What I wouldn't give to see a Allegheny run again.
I used to work in the shipyards in Seattle as a welder and a fabricator. Those boilers on those huge merchant ships are massive. You can fit 4 big boy boilers in one of them. They are far more complicated as well. You can look at the boilers in power plants that drive steam turbines and they are several stories tall.
Yet those get overhauled and rebuilt all the time in just a few months. If you gave the shop that overhauls and rebuilds ship boilers the Big boy boiler and told them it was a big job they would probably be laughing at you. I hope if this restoration does go through they take that into consideration because a huge part of your expenses is labor. Spending years working on the boiler doesn't make that much sense anymore when it can be done for probably 1/4 of the expense and 1/10th of the time by people who specialize in that kind of work.
They have my full support as well along with my skills which I will gladly offer them at no cost.
As I understand it, ship's boilers are water-tube, aren't they? That would certainly seem (to me) to make them a bit more complicated than the fire-tube boilers used on steam locomotives. If they can handle a water-tube boiler a Big Boy boiler should be a cake-walk for them as you say.
There is the problem of running gear restoration, but again I've heard the Pomona Big Boy was overhauled not too long before it was retired, so possibly there's no heavy work needed there.
At any rate, the UP kept several Big Boys on hand as late as 1962, "just in case". Turns out they weren't needed after all.
Steam is largely dead in the world's merchant fleets. Oil fired steam propulsion plants were fairly common for large merchant ships into the 70's and early 80's (Falling out of favor for smaller vessels a few years earlier) but then fell out of favor as large slow turning diesel powerplants advanced in efficiency. And the majority of that era has now gone to scrap since the usual life for a merchant ship on the ocean's is 20-30 years and steam is now undesirable compared to modern diesel powerplants (And for giants like what steam turbines were usually going into the last 20-30 years of their widespread sue on the oceans, lifespans were often even less).
And not only is steam almost dead in the world's ocean going merchant fleets, it's not far behind in our inland fleets on the Great Lakes. Canadian fleets are down to three steam turbined vessels with Algoma Central Marine and American operators only have a dozen or so ships left (With several having been in long-term layup since this recession hit) and are faccing EPA mandates banning Bunker C at the end of this decade which is going to kill them off as steamers.
And oil fired steam turbine plants in Naval vessels are largely a thing of the past now. Even the largest ships that had been receiving such power plants due to their power capabilities for a given amount of space, their efficiency, their quietness, and their reduced vibration as things like gas turbines took over in recent decades on smaller naval vessels are now forgoing steam for other forms of power. Our large amphibious aircraft carriers in our navy are now receiving other forms of propulsion for an example of one of the last few holdouts in the United States for new vessel construction with the traditional oil fired steam turbine plant.
Outside of nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers in our navy, steam is living on borrowed time in the USN. It's already extinct in several other large navy's around the world.
And as far as I know, comparable boilers in locomotives were extremely uncommon (Such as Pennsy's steam turbine experiment). So I wouldn't be so sure that even an experienced shipyard full of skilled workers and the necessary machinery for working on steam, which isn't going to be common with the death of the American merchant fleet and the decline in steam in what's left of it these days (Our country isn't exactly teaming with shipyards these days and what little there is is dedicated largely for Naval uses or on the Great Lakes is kept busy servicing Great Lakes customers), would be as adept at tackling a Big Boy's boiler as Union Pacific's own steam crew in Cheyenne would be.
This technology is very different from what resides in engine room's of ships.
Thomas 9011 Firelock76There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company. Yes that is right there is two Alleghenies. Most people think that the only railroad that owned Alleghenies were the B&O but the Virginian owned them as well. The Virginian was absorbed into the Norfolk Southern. What I wouldn't give to see a Allegheny run again.
Firelock76There IS another Allegheny out there, it's in the B&O Museum in Baltimore, indoors where the weather can't get at it and keeping the "Big Yellow Banana" Hudson company.
The example at the B&O Railroad Museum has gone through a flood and was only cosmetically restored afterwards. And most of her retirement life hasn't been spent sheltered from the elements. Her first decade or more of retirement wasn't even spent secure in preservation but was rather spent on a scrap line for an example of the treatment she has received for a good portion of her retirement. Her shelter is just something that has came about since her cosmetic restoration and donation to the B&O Railroad Museum back in the 90's.
So not only do you have her size to deal with along with the normal problems associated with restoring a steam locomotive to service after decades of silence, you also have the consequences of that flood from back in the 80's that almost turned her on her side that could lead to a whole range of surprises once she was started to be torn down.
And then you have her weight to deal with which is significantly more than a Big Boy if I'm not mistaken. The problem was such that even 65 years ago when they were new, there were problems just coming up with a route for delivery from the builder.
And the other example is very much a prized display piece that I'm very skeptical would ever be released even if a miracle happened and some organization proposing an operational restoration were to approach them.
They are close sisters to Virginians examples, even though there were differences between both of C&O's orders as well as the Virginian locomotives. So I suppose you could argue that it wouldn't be completely illogical if they wanted to restore a steam giant to operation to go with one since there is an indirect connection there with a NS predecessor thanks to those similarities.
But if they were to ever want a articulated giant for a full blown steam program again (unlike the limited program they're doing right now), I imagine the 1218 would get the call. She's very much impressive, she was relatively recently in operation and is much more a known quantity where condition and what her needs would be to be restored again are cocerned, she's more connectable with their heritage, and she's much more flexible operationally than an extremely heavy 2-6-6-6 would be.
Yeah, old 1218. she was in the middle of a rebuild when the curtain came down on NS steam in 1994. Just how far they'd gotten I don't know, but she'd certainly be a good candidate for restoration should NS want an articulated back. The Allegheny's? Sure, they're wishful thinking, but wishing doesn't hurt anyone. The B&O Museums' example certainly won't be back unless someone else underwrites the cost for them, quite frankly I don't think the museum could afford it. Even it it could, the Museum's in the middle of CSX territory and CSX wouldn't allow it to run on their rails. Talk about all dressed up with no place to go! I'm sure the same would apply to the Allegheny at Greenfield Village. If someone wants to pay for the restoration I'm sure they'd go for it. Then you'd need a place to run it.
See that's the thing. It doesn't make sense to restore a big locomotive just to putt-putt up and down a few feet of museum track, and that's what makes the idea of the UP restoring a Big Boy plausible to begin with. They've more than got the space to run it. They've got the sense of corporate history to run it. So now, it's just wait and see time. I'm willing to wait, and I shall see.
Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems. Most of the ships I worked on were steam turbines (and I was working in the shipyards about 6 years ago). There is some smaller ones that use gas turbines but those are very expensive to operate and are mostly found on US Navy ships. I also worked on some old junkers from overseas that were running 4 cylinder diesel engines. You could actually open a door and walk through the crankcase.
I see little hope of ever seeing a Allegheny return back to steam. It was far too heavy even back when it was brand new. They actually had to lie to the railroad about the real weight because the railroad would have rejected it had they known how heavy it really was. I have worked on both steam and diesel locomotives and the Allegheny looks like a mechanical nightmare for a pipe fitter or a welder. I wouldn't mind working on a Big boy but a Allegheny gives me a head ache just looking at it.
Firelock76 I'm willing to wait, and I shall see.
You shouldn't have long to wait according to the newswire here.
Sounds like everything is contingent on her current owner giving her up. If that happens, barring a management shift at UP that is less enthused with the steam program, another economic downturn, or some unfortunate hidden surprises that may be uncovered when they start to tear her down to rebuild that would make it prohibitively expensive to continue, it sounds like it's a go. A lot can happen though before 2019.
Keeping my fingers crossed, but I think as long as the desire to see her in steam overcomes their sadness in losing an excellent exhibit, it sounds like her return is a good bet. The biggest problem if the sale happens is the long wait we're going to have before getting to see her under steam again.
Just a heavy rebuild can take them a half decade on something like the 844. So they're probably just going to be squeaking by in time for their celebrations for the 150th anniversary of the golden spike if everything goes as planned.
Well I won't believe it until I actually see one being moved to Cheyenne, and even then the return to steam portion could get 86'ed due to excessive costs and only get cosmetic restoration for the anniversary. This would be a hugely massive job, anyone who thinks it will be a quick easy thing to do doesn't really understand whats involved. 2013 to 2019 is only 6 years, in the restoration world that's a blink of an eye. Renovations like this can take 10 years, or more. So don't hold your breath just yet.
Have fun with your trains
Thomas 9011Thomas 9011 wrote the following post at Sun, Dec 16 2012 11:11 PM: Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems.
Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems.
The big issue with watertube boilers in general is turndown ratio: they don't like running well off design power. For ships, it's relatively easy to keep a stable steam output. Not so for locomotives!
Watertube fireboxes are a different story, but again these will depend on relatively constant firing conditions, or at least reasonable consistency in where the hot parts of the combustion plume are, and relatively long firing transitions. (There were historic issues with fabrication and maintenance under typical American working conditions, but those might not be as relevant as they were for, say, Baldwin 60000 or the Emerson boxes back in the day). A general consensus seemed to be that watertube anything only made sense at higher pressure, and pressure much above 310psi required some system of compounding (if for no other reason that the peak torque in 2-cylinder DA locomotive engines begins to make them too slippery when run at required HP and speed at that inlet pressure).
Little doubt in my mind that the short-term 'fix' for PRR 6200's staybolt surprise was a watertube firebox of some sort, and IN MY OPINION there is no particular reason why a firetube convection section could not survive pressure up to the 500psi range -- you see them do so all the time in the oilfields. (You see staybolted sheets there too at that pressure, but those boilers are not moving and jolting or being exposed to sudden high steam demand...)
I also worked on some old [nautical] junkers from overseas that were running 4 cylinder diesel engines. You could actually open a door and walk through the crankcase.
Very large diesels and semidiesels are very common in modern ship construction -- more so than steam. In part this is because part-load efficiency for positive-displacement IC engines remains relatively high if crank speed can be varied... which is the case in many types of modern ship. There are some very interesting pictures of some of these, cf. from Burmeister and Wain. (And for pure dottiness, be sure to look at those honorary steam engines, the Doxfords... ;-})
I see little hope of ever seeing a Allegheny return back to steam. It was far too heavy even back when it was brand new. They actually had to lie to the railroad about the real weight because the railroad would have rejected it had they known how heavy it really was.
It may pay to remember what this problem actually was. The weight problem was critical because of the rate at which the BLE and other unions were compensated. You be the judge of how union lawyers would respond upon finding out locomotives were heavier than the railroad had been paying them for. The civil-engineering concerns were significant, but much less so than the labor ones...
I have worked on both steam and diesel locomotives and the Allegheny looks like a mechanical nightmare for a pipe fitter or a welder. I wouldn't mind working on a Big boy but a Allegheny gives me a head ache just looking at it.
I don't think it's any worse than other contemporary engines (which also had a maze of pipes and lines to various fancy systems) EXCEPT that the Alleghenies had very careful arrangements in the steam piping to and from the two engines -- you need large-diameter flow-smoothed piping with minimal transition loss at bends and joints both to and from the cylinders, and the flows need to be balanced to keep one or the other engine from becoming effectively slipperier. (In my opinion, this was the chief 'advantage' of the Allegheny over the N&W class A, and an A given the same freedom in steam lines and tracts might have made better net horsepower over the same range of speeds without the greater weight ... hey, maybe we ought to find that out... ;-} )
Except perhaps for the lead truck (for which I have no stats at hand) there shouldn't be anything extreme in an Allegheny's axle load for track rated for stack-train service -- the contact radius for the drivers is greater. Conditions of augment and balance, of course, would still remain, but these aren't necessarily worse than, say, one and a half Berkshires, except perhaps for some bridge ratings.
The question really comes down to this: the Big Boy is a famous icon of steam-locomotive history, and recognizable in a wide range of the general population as such. As noted, it is not 'that' much bigger than 3985, and an operating example would have the resources and budget of the UP steam organization to draw upon. I do not think the fame of the Allegheny as such extends beyond those of us steam nuts who recognize the details of the design... and the benefits of running one instead of, say, doubleheading two 4-8-4s are dubious at best. In short, show me the money and the plan for restoring and operating the 2-6-6-6, and I'll happily get behind it.
RME
Thomas 9011Firelock....The main boilers are water tube which are massive, but I have seen auxiliary boilers that are similar to locomotive boilers to keep the ship limping along in case the main boiler has problems. Most of the ships I worked on were steam turbines (and I was working in the shipyards about 6 years ago).
It has been about a decade since I've even heard a steam turbine at work outside of United States Naval ships and Great Lakes freighters. I participated in helping create a database back in the late 1990's and ultimately we located less than 3,000 steamships in existence. And that included everything from ships awaiting scrapping, hundreds of mothballed USN ships that were to never sail again (Which has had a large swathe of it scrapped since then), active and inactive museum ships, and many hundreds of derelicts that were at least visible from the surface at low tide and could be seen by non divers. Active vessels were few and far between and much attrition has taken place since then of what little was left with dozens of passenger ships having been scrapped (The era of the large passenger steamship is now part of the past), the loss of most of the surviving steam on the Great Lakes, the loss of all the giant container ships and such that still were sometimes receiving steam plants into the 80's, etc.
Saltie's are things like Sulzer engines one right after another without fail. Steam is almost extinct in the world's merchant fleets for both passenger and cargo uses (Other than some experimentation with COGAS underway now where the the exhaust heat from gas turbines is then used to create steam for an additional steam turbine which is expected to get gas turbines into widespread use outside of Naval roles thanks to the efficiency increase). And it's just about dead on the Great Lakes where the fresh water gives merchant ships extremely long life's at times (American survivors will be retired or repowered by 2020, the Badger has been a victim of a witch hunt, and the three Canadian survivors are all due for replacement in the next season or two). And it isn't far away from dying in Naval roles outside of a handful of nuclear powered submarines and aircraft carriers that will continue to utilize nuclear propulsion. The Royal Navy retired its last steamship back in 2002 for example of the state it's in for the world's navy's (Nuclear powered ships like Britain's small sub fleet aren't typically classified as steamships even though that's what they are)
And even with new sub and aircraft carrier construction, internal combustion is making headways with a return in popularity for alternate propulsion forms for submarines and even with large aircraft carriers like England's new Queen Elizabeth class under construction now that are CODAG instead of CONAS.
Unless you were working at a shipyard that saw a lot of USN business (And even then, the amount of steam you'd see would be small) or at a Great Lakes shipyard (And steam would still be very outnumbered), I'm surprised you could've saw much of anything. The world's merchant fleet has been dominated by decades by foreign concerns and outside of emergencies, they're not going to come to an American shipyard for work to be done. And steam in large merchant vessels is a way they haven't largely even been constructed in thirty years (And for more average sized vessels, steam turbine plants fell out of favor in the 50's and 60's).
What little that is left of our shipbuilding and repair business is largely dedicated to Naval business, a little bit for the tiny bit of coastal work done a few dozen Jones Act compliant ships, scientific vessels, usually floating docks for tow vessels and such on inland rivers instead of full blown shipyard work, and a handful of shipyards on the Great Lakes that largely just service Great Lakes customers like Great Lakes Fleet (The remains of the once giant US Steel fleet).
You're lucky you managed to apparently see much of what little is left since it's just about all gone with just some stragglers left around the world in service, more awaiting scrapping, or consigned to museums.
I work for UP and by my estimate 90 plus percent of the employess could care less about the steam program or any special moves that come through their area. For people in operating crafts most of the time they are nothing but a hassle and do nothing but bring a bunch of managers out to watch you and make your day longer because every train for 50 miles in either direction is put in the hole to wait for "The Special." UP has trips that are open to the "public" all the time, in fact, most of the trips that are made have people from "the public" on them. However, they are invited guests of the railroad and you can't just buy a ticket. But they are still the public when it comes to being on the railroad. In my opinion, the steam program is nothing but a public or business relations tool and does nothing for employee pride in the company.
Skeeterbump: Interesting comment you made, something for us all to think about. Question, and I'm serious about this, what WOULD do something for employee pride in the company? Every company has problems with worker morale from time to time, mines got problems right now, in spades. Can we learn something from you? Remember I'm (and so are most of the people on the Forum, I presume) an outsider looking in. UP seems like a proud organization, is all not as it seems?
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