Boy, what a sight! A NYC K-5 in standard DB/DR livery! Can´t say that I really like it. German steamers were a little sleeker than this brute. Can you imagine a Big Boy with the running gear and wheels painted in red and the side rods with a red lining?
Talking about aesthetics, my favorite is the looks of British steamers, elegant, clean-cut and nice paint jobs!
Gee, I don't know. the red running gear looks good on the Bundesbahn locomotives but just doesn't seem to work on a New York Central Pacific. Not that the Centrals engines couldn't have used a little color, the "basic black" was a little boring. Now, possibly a Russia Iron boiler, some hi-contrast graphiting on the smokebox, the steam dome and sandbox in black, and say a red cab roof with red edging on the cab window frame, and maybe some pinstripe edging on the tender. Then I think you'd have something!
Pluses would include the feedwater heater, shielded pumps on the pilot beam and the large coal bunker on the tender. The red running gear is a definite minus.
Hi Firelock
build a steam locomotive - well I wished I could do that ...
Just another inutile question - what type of w/a would you guys like to see
( blow your mind freely and choose classic or new - whatever you want )
?
Juniatha
My God, that last post from Juniatha brought tears to my eyes. If she could build a steam locomotive the way she builds a cup of hot chocolate we'd still be running the things!
Hi guys
Too much honor : the words 'Alcohaulics' for ALCO engineers / 'Baldheads' for the like at Eddystone / 'Limers' for the folks working with Woodard was - once upon a time - coined by my late father .
Coffee sure is fine at the right time - a cappuccino , an espresso or latte macchiato or one of the numerous Vienna coffee variations , like einspänner or verlängerter - nice to have complete with a glass of table water on a silver plate balancing at the corner of a highly polished board of a green felt billiard table to go with the moments of contemplation in the game ...
My favorite cup ( all too often , sigh !) : hot chocolate - the real stuff that's made of genuine chocolate powder , brown sugar or honey dissolved and compounded in hot milk ; it takes some preparation with very light boiling into a rich creamy melange , boiling for some 15 - 20 minutes ( don't burn at the bottom of the pot !) while always keeping an eye on it and keep stirring it ( never leave milk alone when it seems still far from starting to boil : it will jump-start to do so in your absence and spill everything while you are away for just one short ... ) , sugar is actually preferable since boiling destroys the healthy ingredients in honey anyways and you can blend sugar with chocolate powder right before poring it into milk - which greatly improves dissolving ( and actually melting of the powder particles with the boiling process which only opens up the full chocolate flavor ) - it's tasty with vanilla and maybe a shot of Amaretto ...
Enjoy ...
Big Jim :
Well , if at all , it's more the other way around ... mind the 'th' that's there for a reason instead of just 't' as in the locomotive plant at Altoona that still continues long after Pennsy has gone down that river ...
( by the way , since become my middle name - my first or christian name being Sarene ; so now you know about it )
"Enquiring minds want to know"
I wonder is it because she likes the Pennsy so much she named herself "Joo-nee-at-ha"...as in the Pennsylvania town?
.
The SP Daylight? Yes. the N&W J and the NYNH&H I-5. Just as good if not better. The latter visually only. Could have been brought up to snuff with wheel rebalancing and boiler fixing, but diesilization came to soon for that to happen.
Firelock76 BigJim: I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp! It's coffee, strong enought to float a Pennsy T-1. Trust me.
BigJim: I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp!
I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp!
It's coffee, strong enought to float a Pennsy T-1. Trust me.
My great uncle Bernie said that coffee wasn't good unless you could float a horseshoe in it, so whatever Juniatha is drinking must be some mighty fine coffee (kaffe?).
- Erik
BigJim I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp!
Well HOT ***! SHE"S BACK! And not a minute too soon!
Hi NRdriver
quote
>> Is it really possible to go past SP's 4449 as the classic streamlined steam loco <<
Well , the only thing I say is :
I kind of envy you for peace of mind having found your perfect engine .
That's all.
Full stop.
Oh - and : enjoy !
= J =
Hi Daveklepper
quote :>> The B&A Birksheres had Elasco feedwater heeters <<
Elasco ?Why , were they elastically lasting ? That's astonopuzzling , I should say at least !
I will agree with the coffein speed water feator any time , though !Feeding boilers with speed water considerbaldwinly prevented limaling up boiler inner secrets - a tweaker which understandably intrigued the Alcohaulics at Schenectady to an extend to finally make them acquire one of these supposedly baldwinning engines in the face of dizzelization . However the Baldheads weren't sleeping at the switch either and shifted the Mohawk people one Old Timer which happened to have lingered at the most forgotten corner of Eddy's Stone yard , a remnant left from one batch once upon a time sailed to Mongolia . Surprisingly however , the Schenecawkians found it would have worked decently well on Starbuck's as well ... well , well , it was just swell ! And who knows : had Starbucks been what it is today - maybe today we wouldn't say "Let's go sit down for some coffee" instead say "Let's go have a train ride to breath some coffee from the locomotive" .And for sure that's something only steam could do , no digi-doggy diesel .Yes , steam has always provided for the small trivial things that tend to make life humourous , besides bare moving loads ...
“You only live twice - or so it seemsone life for yourself and one for your dreams ..”.. as Nancy Sinatra once sang for Bond -James Bond.
.. but that's another story
regards
Correction to previous postings. The B&A Birksheres had Elasco feedwater heeters or something looking just like them, a cylinder straight across projecting forward of the front of the smokebox. The Boston and Maine had the almost identacle locomotives but with the COFEEN feedwater heaters curved around the top of the smokeboxc, giving them the real John L. Lewis look.
Is it really possible to go past SP's 4449 as the classic streamlined steam loco, though from a personal point of view I do like the Pennsy t1, only because our South Australian Railways 520 class 4-8-4 was taken from that design!
First off Dave - Welcome to the forums.
In a perfect world your assertions would be correct. Day in, day out railroading is about as far as you can get from a perfect world - it's more like Murphy's World - If it can fail; it will. If it can't fail; it still will fail - in the location and in the weather conditions that will make it most difficult to resolve the problem.
Brakes on both cars and locomotives can become applied, even when not intended by the engineer. In many cases the engineer will have applied the train brakes to slow down or stop and then released the brakes, it is not uncommon for one car's brake valve to 'not get the message' and not release the brakes on that individual car. When this happens one of two things will occur ... The brake shoes maintain pressure on the wheels, but not enough pressure to keep the wheels from turning - overheating the brake shoe and wheel tread and causing material from the brake shoe to build up on the wheel tread as the car moves - effectively decreasing the flange depth and potentially causing a derailment. The second thing that can occur is for the brake shoe to immobilize the wheel - (the brakes being solidly applied on a single car in a train of any size is not noticeable by the engineer) the train proceeds and flattens the bottom of the wheel (ever watched a train pass and somewhere in the train is a car that just 'pounds' as it passes - that is a car that has flat spots on it wheels [cars with minor flat spots are allowed to continue in service]). Major flat spots can cause derailments of the car involved as well as generate broken rails as the train continues moving if the flat spotted wheel begins turning again (the edge of the flat spot will act as chisel when it pounds the rail).
Locomotive brakes operate a little differently than car brakes. Locomotives have two brake valves. The 'Automatic' and 'Independent'. When the engineer applies the Independent brake, only the brakes on the locomotive consist are applied; this is most frequently used when the locomotives are moving without cars or when the locomotive is being used to switch cars without air. The Independent brake valve also has the ability to release the engine brakes when they get applied by the Automatic brake valve. The Automatic brake valve is what is used to apply and release the train brakes. Normally, the engineer will 'bail off' or release the engine brakes when applying the train brakes in order to prevent flat spotting locomotive wheels from excessive brake pressure. In the steam age, the reason for bailing off the engine brake was to prevent overheating the driver tires which were heated and shrunk fit on the wheel center section - if the tire got too hot it could expand and come off the wheel center section - creating big problems.
I hope I have shed a little light on some of the real world of railroad braking.
davelemmo Given the function of drivers, and the fact that they were stopped using shoe brakes, they would be unlikely to wear in non circular patterns. Unlike the wheels of non rail vehicles, trains do not skid as their weight and break systems create a rolling stop. Break shoes are only capable of causing wear on a wheel when they are metallic in construction, more modern style breaks are of similar nature to the tires found on other forms of surface vehicle. I cannot see how elliptical wear is even possible, even on rubber tired wheels.
Given the function of drivers, and the fact that they were stopped using shoe brakes, they would be unlikely to wear in non circular patterns. Unlike the wheels of non rail vehicles, trains do not skid as their weight and break systems create a rolling stop. Break shoes are only capable of causing wear on a wheel when they are metallic in construction, more modern style breaks are of similar nature to the tires found on other forms of surface vehicle. I cannot see how elliptical wear is even possible, even on rubber tired wheels.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Here ya go, Dave.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5211o.jpg
5200 (NYC J1) with eight-wheel tender? Never saw one in real life. But there were the ten J2's, 600-609, assigned to the Boston and Albany, but unlike other B&A locomotives, New York Central on the tender sides. With eight-wheel tenders. And one could find New Haven American Flyer coaches behind them in the Inland Route consists between Springfield and Boston. 74" drivers, however. Square sand dome. Lima and not American. Otherwise like a J1.
[quote user="JimValle"]
Yo Firelock: If you think the B&A locos were ugly with the Coffin feedwater heater hanging out in front, you ought to have seen them after they migrated to the Southern Pacific and had the Coffin unit removed. Now THATS UGLY! ( They were transferred late in World War II to help SP move traffic for the big build-up prior to the projected invasion of Japan
Well Jim, ya know what they say: Beauty is only skin deep, ugly goes to da bone!
Yo Firelock: If you think the B&A locos were ugly with the Coffin feedwater heater hanging out in front, you ought to have seen them after they migrated to the Southern Pacific and had the Coffin unit removed. Now THATS UGLY! ( They were transferred late in World War II to help SP move traffic for the big build-up prior to the projected invasion of Japan ).
Firelock76 ... Amen. Personally, instead of an "Amen" I would have ended with a "So THERE!"
... Amen.
Personally, instead of an "Amen" I would have ended with a "So THERE!"
I had not known there to be a difference.
Crandell
I lucked into a copy of Ron Zeil and Mike Eagleson's "Twilight of World Steam" yesterday, and found this on the last page. No author is listed, it could be either Ron or Mike, but I thought everyone would get a kick out of it.
A Psalm Of Steam
The steam locomotive is my treasure, I shall not want diesels.
It maketh me to lie down in green pastures with my camera: it leadeth me beside the still water towers.
It restoreth my soul; it leadeth me along the dirt roads to scrap yards, wretched food and poverty for its preservation's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the terminal of the shadow of diesel, I will fear no police; for my photo-permit is with me; thy side-rods and thy stack-talk they comfort me.
Thou preparest a turntable for me in the presence of the diesel salesman: thou anointest my head with cinders; my tender runneth over.
Surely low, three-quarter sunlight and thick smoke will follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the roundhouse of the LORD forever. Amen.
Reply # 210 :
Hi M636C
Well, sure – in engineering it was important to do things right – still is so more than ever .
An arrangement looked much better with coffin preheater fit into the smokebox rather than in front of it . However , that solution must have brought other complications , only think of pulling the tubes ( once they were pulled it didn’t matter , but what about fitting new ones without bending them ?) Problem was the shape of the preheater reached too far down the sides .
Or , all in all I’d have preferred a ‘coffee preheater’ – especially since a compact version of it , the espresso preheater , could have been used for small engines .
( sorry , it somehow seems hard for me to stay serious about this )
Here are some links to see more of the engines :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LDamj-Svvo
# 5344 virtual video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0AGYIVjNIg&feature=related
NYC Hudsons along the Hudson – as far as stack sound can be heard on the faster by runs valve gear appears pretty well tuned
http://toytrains1.net/hudson.htm
some nice pictures of models and real engines :
Regards
Didn't the locomotive that was arguably the best looking locomotive in the United States, New York Central J-1e 5344, have a Coffin feed water heater?
Before Kantona and subsequently Dreyfuss got to it, it was one of the best looking locomotives anywhere, and the piping to the feedwater heater didn't upset the appearance noticeably.
As the owner of a reproduction Lionel 700E, which sits in its glass case in front of me as I type, surely the only problem with the Coffin heater was that some operators didn't go to the trouble of fitting them correctly.
M636C
Hi folks
Ok , since Firelock is amused - let's reel on (*g*) ...
The scariest Halloween extra - ya but .. what did they do with it the rest of the year ?
Well , I think as for grade crossings , a steam loco that not just warned by physical strength and loud beats and whistle blowing but had a coffin ready up front , this must have been the ultimate warning for even the more modestly minded motorist .
One principal remark about aesthetics , though :
Aspects of aesthetics do not depend on or are defined by gadgets such as streamlining ( and or coloring ) that rather have to be filed under 'glamour' . Then again , streamlining of steam locos , according to aesthetic value of it's achievement , could – didn’t have to – improve appearance of an engine in that it gave expression and harmony to it’s shape , lines and proportions . The opposite could – and did – happen , especially when industrial designers executed this job the way they used to execute any work for a customer in a ‘gun for hire’ manner .
However there was a difference between throwing a fashionable streamlining body shape over a given automobile chassis ( and not just a few of these proved a sore sight pretty soon after the fashion craze had moved on , except in the eyes of some specialized vintage car lover ) rounding the corners of a house to make it look futuristic , streamlining a refrigerator and applying a couple of snappy chrome bands ( a kind of ‘styling’ which really never had any connection with a frige’s function and thus was meaningless from the beginning ) and – finally – sculpturing some sheet metal for a steam locomotive .
Fundamental difference between contouring a steam locomotive and an automobile was – besides differing sizes immediately apparent : basically you could cover an automobile chassis with about any shape and styling of a body and thus make it the type of car you want it to be , while with steam locomotives the machinery already was the body itself .
That implies any kind of sheet metal couture needed to be made to harmonize , hopefully compliment the inherent lines and expression of a steam locomotive – some historical realizations however simply ignored technical and optical engine qualities, some tried to hide features or even reverse or deny expression of attributes . The results of all these creative ‘efforts’ or rather lack thereof were , in my view , less than happy , pleasing or harmonious – you may pick your own choices .
Aesthetics thus are not defined by or limited to engines with high drive wheel diameters , on the contrary : there are examples of harmonious designs and unhappy ones among express engines , freight engines and dual purpose engines . That said , a person may well feel more attracted by one or the other for individual reasons – there is personal adherence , maybe emotion , maybe memory , often a mixture of various motives involved and may very well be so .
As an opposite example of a Berkshire of much better technical proportions and at the same time more harmonious looks than the ‘coffin-engine’ I dare to mention the L&N M-1 class .
What examples do you propose ?
Crandell.
Since I live on Cape Cod the doo doo on the ball cap is Seagull with a little cursive saying. I also had a Tee shirt with the same theme.
My mom always said there was no ugly baby to the mom that bore it. I guess that goes for locos too. While I would love to see a giant CC1 pushing cuts of cars over the hump I still will not leave out the lowly B6sb switching cars on the ready track or the brace of H8sa locos pulling and pushing tonnage on the curve.
Keep your streamlined high stepping passenger hauler. They moved people. Give me the power that moved the world.
CC1
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr3397.jpg
B6sb
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr96s.jpg
H8sa
http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march06/03-27-06/PRR9401PitcairnPA_Aug49.jpg
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Oh, I LIKE the way this thread's taken on a life of it's own and just keeps gathering momentum like a rolling snowball. Keep the ball rolling folks, sometimes it's fun creating a monster! Come on, there's a little Doc Frankenstein in all of us, ain't there? The wife likes to channel her "Inner Godzilla" from time to time. Happy belated Halloween, everyone! I'll bet that Coffin equipped B&M hog was the best scare any of us had this week!
Pardon me , maybe I'll sound conservative :
does anyone propose this really concerns topic steam aesthetics ?
I have a strong suspicion this is about preservation - full stop .
Maybe we should put up a thread
"Who knows about present status of Frisco #1351 ?"
and summon these posts there ?
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