UPENG95 That definitely is NOT Los Angeles. The L.A. River doesn't curve at any location in the downtown area and the downtown area is the only location where the tracks would be very close. In addition there would be SP/UP tracks on the oppposite side of the river also. Nice photos regardless!
Easy to say. So where is it?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Likely very near A Tower at the east end of Argentine Yard. The TR4s were assigned to Argentine for most of their service.
schlimm UPENG95 That definitely is NOT Los Angeles. The L.A. River doesn't curve at any location in the downtown area and the downtown area is the only location where the tracks would be very close. In addition there would be SP/UP tracks on the oppposite side of the river also. Nice photos regardless! Easy to say. So where is it?
Firelock76 Original ALCO PA six-wheel trucks are impossible to find, so I've been told, so both Doyle and the folks in Texas are doing the best they can. And as RME says, if they get them running again, who cares?
Original ALCO PA six-wheel trucks are impossible to find, so I've been told, so both Doyle and the folks in Texas are doing the best they can.
And as RME says, if they get them running again, who cares?
I'm not going to complain, either. A PA with a 251 engine inside isn't that much of a stretch and keep in mind the Rock Island FA1's that were repowered with 567 engines and later re-trucked with Blomberg trucks when the Type B trucks were needed for trade-in for U25B's.
The intern might complain. He griped mightily about re-powering the Flying Yankee with a 567 engine.
CSSHEGEWISCHI'm not going to complain, either. A PA with a 251 engine inside isn't that much of a stretch ...
MUCH less so than any EMD or other Christine Jorgenson repower; it could even be argued that most of the 'experience' is the same from a modern 12-cylinder 251 as from a debugged-as-far-as-possible 244. To say nothing of the fact that apparently there are no 16-cylinder 244s anywhere ... or, perhaps more importantly, any cranks to install in fabricated blocks, which really shuts down any thought of producing one right there.
and keep in mind the Rock Island FA1's that were repowered with 567 engines and later re-trucked with Blomberg trucks when the Type B trucks were needed for trade-in for U25B's.
The thing here is a bit different - Blomberg trucks are prototypical for a Rock Island FA 'restomod', but there really isn't any way Erie-built trucks work under anybody's PA. (Keep in mind that the visible pieces from the Brazilian trucks are all correct for duplication, if any purists want to ante up the funds, cold hard cash please, to make the 'right' trucks for one of these units.)
Part of the situation with Flying Yankee, as I understood it, was that the proposed 567 installation was to be made as 'modular' as possible, so that little or no change in the historic fabric of the train itself was needed to install the more reliable and infinitely more maintainable engine. It could be argued (I myself would so argue, but I don't know the full 'internal' or political story) that spending all that money on restoring the 201A to operating condition would much better have been spent on the train itself -- Preston Cook, who knows as much about these engines as anyone, thinks it extremely unwise to actually operate using any 201A. That's not to say the money was wasted, as having at least one 201A in fully restored condition is important historically ... just saying that if the train is to recoup the money, time, and trouble put into its restoration by running in excursion service, it makes little or no sense to run the restored 201A into the ground doing so. I don't want to open another can of worms discussion about where the Flying Yankee restoration is going, but I definitely think a 567 (ideally D block or later?) is a useful part of it.
The 201-A was basically complete in Claremont before the train was moved to Lincoln.
SSW9389 Likely very near A Tower at the east end of Argentine Yard. The TR4s were assigned to Argentine for most of their service. schlimm UPENG95 That definitely is NOT Los Angeles. The L.A. River doesn't curve at any location in the downtown area and the downtown area is the only location where the tracks would be very close. In addition there would be SP/UP tracks on the oppposite side of the river also. Nice photos regardless! Easy to say. So where is it?
From May 1949 until it was re-engined in 1954, the 51-B cab unit was numbered63. It took the number 51-C in February 1955 to identify the 51 set as unique. In a general renumbering of all second cab units on A-B-A sets of the Santa Fe PAs the 52-B became 64 and others followed consecutively through 57-B becoming 69. Two units sets 70-70A through 73-73A were run around and 58-B through 62-B took the numbers 74 through 78.
RME CSSHEGEWISCH I'm not going to complain, either. A PA with a 251 engine inside isn't that much of a stretch ... MUCH less so than any EMD or other Christine Jorgenson repower; it could even be argued that most of the 'experience' is the same from a modern 12-cylinder 251 as from a debugged-as-far-as-possible 244. To say nothing of the fact that apparently there are no 16-cylinder 244s anywhere ... or, perhaps more importantly, any cranks to install in fabricated blocks, which really shuts down any thought of producing one right there. and keep in mind the Rock Island FA1's that were repowered with 567 engines and later re-trucked with Blomberg trucks when the Type B trucks were needed for trade-in for U25B's. The thing here is a bit different - Blomberg trucks are prototypical for a Rock Island FA 'restomod', but there really isn't any way Erie-built trucks work under anybody's PA. (Keep in mind that the visible pieces from the Brazilian trucks are all correct for duplication, if any purists want to ante up the funds, cold hard cash please, to make the 'right' trucks for one of these units.) Part of the situation with Flying Yankee, as I understood it, was that the proposed 567 installation was to be made as 'modular' as possible, so that little or no change in the historic fabric of the train itself was needed to install the more reliable and infinitely more maintainable engine. It could be argued (I myself would so argue, but I don't know the full 'internal' or political story) that spending all that money on restoring the 201A to operating condition would much better have been spent on the train itself -- Preston Cook, who knows as much about these engines as anyone, thinks it extremely unwise to actually operate using any 201A. That's not to say the money was wasted, as having at least one 201A in fully restored condition is important historically ... just saying that if the train is to recoup the money, time, and trouble put into its restoration by running in excursion service, it makes little or no sense to run the restored 201A into the ground doing so. I don't want to open another can of worms discussion about where the Flying Yankee restoration is going, but I definitely think a 567 (ideally D block or later?) is a useful part of it.
CSSHEGEWISCH I'm not going to complain, either. A PA with a 251 engine inside isn't that much of a stretch ...
What 567 is being suggested for use in the "Flying Yankee"?
Remember that the 201A was a straight eight, and sat very low in the frames. Since all 567s are vee-type, could one be fitted without modifying the power car frames?
A Cummins QSK 19 would sound like a good option as an in line six and these are good for 750 HP. You would need a matching alternator too, of course.
It would probably sound different. I don't think I've ever heard a 201A running.
On the subject of sound and back on topic, a 244 sounds quite different from a 251. Certainly a 12-244 has much more of a distinctive "snarl" than a 12-251, sounding perhaps more like an Italian sports car when in notch 8. Sixteen cylinder Alcos (251s, anyway, I've never heard a 16-244) have a distinctive chugging, not heard with a 12 cylinder, and the 244 might have a chugging under load (one earlier post mentioned this) as well as a snarl not heard from a 16-251....
Of course, I don't imagine you'll find a !6-244 to drop in the Texas PA locomotive but there might be a working 12-244 for it somewhere.
Peter
ATSF PA 75 at Fort Worth TX under the lights...
A-B-B PA 58 at Joliet IL...
A few other early-model Alcos on the ATSF roster...
RS-2 2099 - the only unit of this type on the roster...
S-4 1536...
S-2 2329...
RSD-5 2134...
RSD-15 units...
RSD-5 2135 from two angles...
RSD-15s on tonnage in Crozier Canyon AZ...
RSD-15s on tonnage at Summit CA...
RSD-15s on tonnage at unidentified location...
San Bernardino shops...
A-B-A on Raton Pass...
Santa Fe 1536 is misidentified as a S-2 it actually is a S-4. A-2 have Blount trucks and S-4 have AAR type A trucks.
Great photos brings me back to the early 70s when Penn Central had ALCO switchers and road switchers everywhere. To this day an ALCO 539T powered switcher is my favorite power in the yard. While I haven't see a live ALCO S class switcher operating in a few years there is still an ALCO S 539T powered switcher at the old 1st street yard Boston, Massachusetts ex New Haven sitting behind chain link fence. It hasn't run in years but how many intact S class ALCO switchers do you know off?
The RSD15's in Crozier Canyon are proof that there are already locomotives in an ATSF Heritage paint job, they are working in Long Beach on Pacific Harbor Line.
In the early 50s the Erie used PAs occasionaly in their commuter ops out of Jersey City. I recall a holiday (Labor Day?) in 1950 or 51 when the afternoon local from JC to Waldwick was made up of a PA and two Stillwells. After turning in the Waldwick yard the PA with its "train" need only idle to go east to Hohokus.
BaltACD Better days in the past
Better days in the past
A-A-B waiting to tie on to 76 at Clovis NM...
A-B on the ready track at Clovis NM...
A-A-B-A on the Fast Mail in Kansas City...
In the lineup at Clovis NM...
On the platform in Clovis NM...
Kansas City Union Station...
PAs meet at speed...
Texas Chief at speed...
Unidentified three car train - company private varnish, perhaps?...
The Golden Gate in the San Joaquin Valley...
Line up at Barstow CA...
Grand Canyon in Chillicothe IL...
This thread from several years back has quite an extensive discussion on PA locomotives inclusive of photos. I popped it back up for the benefit of those who have recently been discussing the Alco PA.
On a closely related note, are any of the Fairbanks Morse "Erie Builts" passenger locomotives preserved? Elegant brutes.
I did some checking, and to anyone's knowledge no FM "Erie Builts" survive.
Which is a shame, because as you so well put it, they were "elegant brutes."
Flintlock76I did some checking, and to anyone's knowledge no FM "Erie Builts" survive.
This is not for want of trying or opportunity; some of the carbodies and trucks survived very late as part of a railgrinding train. In fact, a set of the trucks salvaged when that train was scrapped are presently under rebuilt PA "190" -- you can tell them by the distinctive curve of the equalizers.
I regret that I never rode behind a PA/PB; my first ride on the Southern's Tennessean was the first day that the EMD engines ran through between Monroe and Bristol. I do have a a copy of a watercolor (by Ron Flanary) on the wall in my sitting room showing Southern #45 ready to leave Bristol--with N&W #611 (just in from Roanoke with the train). I am confident that, at one time or another, I did see all of the Southern's PA and PB engines.
Johnny
Overmod Flintlock76 I did some checking, and to anyone's knowledge no FM "Erie Builts" survive. This is not for want of trying or opportunity; some of the carbodies and trucks survived very late as part of a railgrinding train. In fact, a set of the trucks salvaged when that train was scrapped are presently under rebuilt PA "190" -- you can tell them by the distinctive curve of the equalizers.
Flintlock76 I did some checking, and to anyone's knowledge no FM "Erie Builts" survive.
I don't doubt there were opportunities, but most likely opportunities not taken.
Remember, back when the rail preservation movement started it was started by those trying to save steam locomotives, no-one was interested in saving any of the hated diesels that killed steam. That's just the way it was.
Short-sighted of course, but who knew? Can't blame them really, none of us are issued a crystal ball at birth. Or at any point afterward, for that matter.
Flintlock76 Overmod Flintlock76 I did some checking, and to anyone's knowledge no FM "Erie Builts" survive. This is not for want of trying or opportunity; some of the carbodies and trucks survived very late as part of a railgrinding train. In fact, a set of the trucks salvaged when that train was scrapped are presently under rebuilt PA "190" -- you can tell them by the distinctive curve of the equalizers. I don't doubt there were opportunities, but most likely opportunities not taken. Remember, back when the rail preservation movement started it was started by those trying to save steam locomotives, no-one was interested in saving any of the hated diesels that killed steam. That's just the way it was. Short-sighted of course, but who knew? Can't blame them really, none of us are issued a crystal ball at birth. Or at any point afterward, for that matter.
For those same reasons there are no Babyfaced Baldwins left. And only two Sharks, two FM/CLC C-Liners (plus the two B-unit/Robot car shells), and only four ALCO PA's.
If you want to save a PB there is exactly one left, in HEP generator car form up in northern Ontario. Now owned by CN, I'm not sure if it has been used since the end of the Sault Ste. Marie to Hearst, ON passenger service. It was originally a Rio Grande unit, and they gave it Blomberg B trucks decades ago.
Those last Erie-Built shells were all B-units. Here is the CP Rail rail welding plant:
https://churcher.crcml.org/circle/SmithsFallsRailWeldingPlant.html
But for me, the real "one that got away" is the Beardmore-powered CN boxcab design of 1928, the original North American road diesel locomotive. The pair, 9000 and 9001, survived in revenue service until after WWII. Then they were scrapped.
Few know there were 1330 HP diesel-electric locomotives running around pulling trains several years before the Winton 201 came along.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Firelock76Original ALCO PA six-wheel trucks are impossible to find, so I've been told, so both Doyle and the folks in Texas are doing the best they can. And as RME says, if they get them running again, who cares?
It is actually in Frisco, Texas now which is a Northern Suburb of Dallas named after the Frisco railroad which goes through it. So they have it hidden in a siding surrounded by brush last I saw and were putting the carbody back together by slowly putting the panels back on. They wanted to complete the carbody exterior shell first including I think glass first, so they would have a visible display piece then work on the innards. It is in the former D&H paint in places but the plans are to put it back into the Santa Fe Passenger Scheme. They already have an F7 in the Santa Fe Scheme that runs but I am not sure its heritage is AT&SF, I think it is from another railroad. They have the original Budd Texas Chief Santa Fe bullet nosed tail car with original tail sign along with some other Santa Fe classic equipment.
SD70Dude hold up, there's two C-Liners left? I thought it was just that one up in Nelson sitting next to a Train Master. Can someone tell me where that other one is? Flintlock76 Overmod Flintlock76 I did some checking, and to anyone's knowledge no FM "Erie Builts" survive. This is not for want of trying or opportunity; some of the carbodies and trucks survived very late as part of a railgrinding train. In fact, a set of the trucks salvaged when that train was scrapped are presently under rebuilt PA "190" -- you can tell them by the distinctive curve of the equalizers. I don't doubt there were opportunities, but most likely opportunities not taken. Remember, back when the rail preservation movement started it was started by those trying to save steam locomotives, no-one was interested in saving any of the hated diesels that killed steam. That's just the way it was. Short-sighted of course, but who knew? Can't blame them really, none of us are issued a crystal ball at birth. Or at any point afterward, for that matter. For those same reasons there are no Babyfaced Baldwins left. And only two Sharks, two FM/CLC C-Liners (plus the two B-unit/Robot car shells), and only four ALCO PA's. If you want to save a PB there is exactly one left, in HEP generator car form up in northern Ontario. Now owned by CN, I'm not sure if it has been used since the end of the Sault Ste. Marie to Hearst, ON passenger service. It was originally a Rio Grande unit, and they gave it Blomberg B trucks decades ago. Those last Erie-Built shells were all B-units. Here is the CP Rail rail welding plant: https://churcher.crcml.org/circle/SmithsFallsRailWeldingPlant.html But for me, the real "one that got away" is the Beardmore-powered CN boxcab design of 1928, the original North American road diesel locomotive. The pair, 9000 and 9001, survived in revenue service until after WWII. Then they were scrapped. Few know there were 1330 HP diesel-electric locomotives running around pulling trains several years before the Winton 201 came along.
hold up, there's two C-Liners left? I thought it was just that one up in Nelson sitting next to a Train Master. Can someone tell me where that other one is?
Matthew Cheng
Come check out my Youtube channel! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSlaF4fvDX1brq6YOeODLPw
If those 4 PA's haven't been sent to Mexico, we wouldn't have to worry about finding the correct trucks. The railroad preservation movement had already started by the time the the D & H was through with the ex-Santa Fe PA's. It's beyond me, why important historic motive power was shipped off to Mexico, and no one protested and made an effort to keep them in the US
Trainman2941If those 4 PA's haven't been sent to Mexico, we wouldn't have to worry about finding the correct trucks. The railroad preservation movement had already started by the time the the D & H was through with the ex-Santa Fe PA's. It's beyond me, why important historic motive power was shipped off to Mexico, and no one protested and made an effort to keep them in the US
At the time - the engines were not considered either important or historic.
Remember the saying - You don't appreciate what you have until it is gone.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I wouldn't say that. The railfan press by the late 1960's certainly viewed the Alco PA as something special and the career of the final four was closely followed by many. The diesel preservation movement though was in its infancy and didn't become organized enough to really start to regularly save important pieces until the 1980's.
That they weren't preserved in the US upon the end of their American careers doesn't necessarily signal that they weren't viewed as important or historic. Just another miss at the time like the New York Central's fleet of Hudsons a few years earlier.
That was another group that was widely viewed as worthy of preserving a few examples of, but the stars simply didn't align with management that was open to the idea, the right groups stepping up to the plate to work towards saving one, or budgets (both at the railroad's end and the preservationists end) to enable the saving of at least one example.
In this instance with the D&H PA's, we had a railroad in financial trouble and locomotives that were heavily rebuilt just a few short years earlier. Not a recipe that's kind to preservationists, but luckily it eventually worked out.
I remember a story in Trains many years ago now (probably around 1970) that may have a bearing on this: when railroads retired locomotives, they sold to scrappers who had a rule against resale 'intact'. This was specifically after EL had sold its PAs to Pielet Brothers and the story noted that a buyer went to Pielet "cash in hand" but "they wouldn't sell".
I still find it regrettable that no one raised the $7K to preserve the Ingalls unit.
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