Trains magazine or this website would be doing us a service ....

[dknelson]

if it would print a full page letter from Metra and other commuter train authorities and/or railroads signed by someone who is the boss saying that it is lawful to photograph their trains.  That way we could either have the mag or a xerox of the letter or a download from the website with us and keep it in our camera bags so we could show it to law enforcement.  

Just a thought.

Dave Nelson 

 

[Limitedclear]

if it would print a full page letter from Metra and other commuter train authorities and/or railroads signed by someone who is the boss saying that it is lawful to photograph their trains.  That way we could either have the mag or a xerox of the letter or a download from the website with us and keep it in our camera bags so we could show it to law enforcement.  

Just a thought.

Dave Nelson 

 

Of course, such a letter would have to exist first...

LC

[Anonymous]

Instead, why not give Metra or any other transit a call and find out. 

[coborn35]

if it would print a full page letter from Metra and other commuter train authorities and/or railroads signed by someone who is the boss saying that it is lawful to photograph their trains.  That way we could either have the mag or a xerox of the letter or a download from the website with us and keep it in our camera bags so we could show it to law enforcement.  

Just a thought.

Dave Nelson 

 

Of course, such a letter would have to exist first...

LC

LOL

[RudyRockvilleMD]

This must have been prompted by Steve Glischinski"s report in the August, 2007 Trains about METRA cops harrassing railfans. I have some better ideas:

1. Most commuter railroad authorities have web sites. If photographing trains is permitted from their stations, why not publish their policy about photographing trains from their stations in their web sites? The National Rail Network in Great Britain is a good example of how it is done. See their website for National Rail Enquiries, www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger services Then click on the Rail Entusiasts.

2. If the commuter railroad authority publishes a newsletter as METRA does ("On The BiLevel") why not publish their policy about photographing trains from their station platforms in that newsletter?

In any event, the publication of the commuter authority's policy about photography from railroad station platforms is for guidance only (what photographers can and cannot do); it should not be used to show that it is permissible when confronted by law enforcement or railroad emloyees.   

[Anonymous]

It's already been done.  TRAINS has covered the debate from the initial harrassment issue until now.  There are even references made to the lawyer who has published a letter similar to what you want concerning your rights under the First Amendment to the Constitution.

 

[dknelson]

My point is that if you are actually confronted by someone who orders you to surrender your camera or come to the station it is no sense asking them to read some article or go to some website.   You need a source of authority that they recognize and react to.  

If the Metra and other authorities are willing to tell a reporter that photography is OK -- and they have been-- they should be willing to sign such a blanket letter for publication

Dave Nelson

[Poppa_Zit]

If Metra did this would that constitute some sort of acknowledgement of liability?

Gabe, where RU?

[Poppa_Zit]

I see a frequent reference to First Amendment rights in these discussions about railfans and railroad police.

Just which part of the First Amendment is being violated in these incidents?

The First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."  -- The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

• Religion: The First Amendment prohibits government from establishing a religion and protects each person's right to practice (or not practice) any faith without government interference.
• Free speech: The First Amendment says that people have the right to speak freely without government interference.
• Free press: The First Amendment gives the press the right to publish news, information and opinions without government interference. This also means people have the right to publish their own newspapers, newsletters, magazines, etc.
• Assembly: The First Amendment says that people have the right to gather in public to march, protest, demonstrate, carry signs and otherwise express their views in a nonviolent way. It also means people can join and associate with groups and organizations without interference.
• Petition: The First Amendment says that people have the right to appeal to government in favor of or against policies that affect them or that they feel strongly about. This freedom includes the right to gather signatures in support of a cause and to lobby legislative bodies for or against legislation.

[Erie Lackawanna]

I see a frequent reference to First Amendment rights in these discussions about railfans and railroad police.

Just which part of the First Amendment is being violated in these incidents?

The First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."  -- The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

• Religion: The First Amendment prohibits government from establishing a religion and protects each person's right to practice (or not practice) any faith without government interference.
• Free speech: The First Amendment says that people have the right to speak freely without government interference.
• Free press: The First Amendment gives the press the right to publish news, information and opinions without government interference. This also means people have the right to publish their own newspapers, newsletters, magazines, etc.
• Assembly: The First Amendment says that people have the right to gather in public to march, protest, demonstrate, carry signs and otherwise express their views in a nonviolent way. It also means people can join and associate with groups and organizations without interference.
• Petition: The First Amendment says that people have the right to appeal to government in favor of or against policies that affect them or that they feel strongly about. This freedom includes the right to gather signatures in support of a cause and to lobby legislative bodies for or against legislation.

Free speech... photogrpahy from a public place is considered free speech.

[Semper Vaporo]

The First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."  -- The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

• Assembly: The First Amendment says that people have the right to gather in public to march, protest, demonstrate, carry signs and otherwise express their views in a nonviolent way. It also means people can join and associate with groups and organizations without interference.

I am assumming that most folk that want to force the issue of having the right to take photos are asserting "the right of the people peaceably to assemble". 

Yet, it seems there are laws against "loitering" that have been upheld as "constitutional". 

I know they have been upheld because in the small town where I was born I remember seeing really old men that sat on park benches most all day long around the county court house.  I was told that they were "centenarians" and "members of the G.A.R."  This was in 1949, 1950 time frame.  For those that don't know, the "G.A.R." is the Grand Army of the Republic, which were the Union forces in the American Civil War (1861-1865).  I was also told that one of them claimed to have fought beside a man that had also fought in the Revolutionary War (1775-1783)!  I remember seeing them playing checkers with the board between them on the stone park benches.

Apparently, sometime in the 1960's, a "new" crowd of senior citizens gathered there and became too rowdy so the county put up signs that said "No Loitering", and they were arrested when they came back the next day.  Their defense was the 1st Amendment... and they lost.  Although I believe the levied "fines" were canceled, they were told that they could not come back to the court house to just sit around.  It took several years before the park benches were removed (some were part of retaining walls), and it really looked odd to see park benches with "No loitering" signs affixed to them.

Anyway, "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" does not include "Loitering".  "Loiter" is defined as: 1: to delay an activity with aimless idle stops and pauses, : LINGER  2 a : to hang about, 2 b : to lag behind.

Now, does taking photos constitute "loitering" or the 1st Amendment right to "assemble"?

I am sure it would take a court case to settle it and I bet it would be overturned multiple times in multiple appeals.  I am equally sure that if it were to start today, I would not live long enough to know the ultimate outcome, though I live to be a centenarian.

 

[Poppa_Zit]

I see a frequent reference to First Amendment rights in these discussions about railfans and railroad police.

Just which part of the First Amendment is being violated in these incidents?

The First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."  -- The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

• Religion: The First Amendment prohibits government from establishing a religion and protects each person's right to practice (or not practice) any faith without government interference.
• Free speech: The First Amendment says that people have the right to speak freely without government interference.
• Free press: The First Amendment gives the press the right to publish news, information and opinions without government interference. This also means people have the right to publish their own newspapers, newsletters, magazines, etc.
• Assembly: The First Amendment says that people have the right to gather in public to march, protest, demonstrate, carry signs and otherwise express their views in a nonviolent way. It also means people can join and associate with groups and organizations without interference.
• Petition: The First Amendment says that people have the right to appeal to government in favor of or against policies that affect them or that they feel strongly about. This freedom includes the right to gather signatures in support of a cause and to lobby legislative bodies for or against legislation.

Free speech... photogrpahy from a public place is considered free speech.

Gotcha. But I believe all stations or platforms are leased/owned/maintained by Metra or any other railroad or towns for the use of train passengers. Which do not make them "public places" in the true legal sense, right? I suppose cops could also arrest a person for loitering in some of these places if they are not holding a ticket.

From what I read from googling the Internet tonight, the U.S. Supreme Court has never affirmed that taking photographs is protected under freedom of speech.

I did find a half-million different interpretations and court cases, though. That's why these cases often end up in court because that's where laws are interpreted.

Gabe?

[Erie Lackawanna]

I see a frequent reference to First Amendment rights in these discussions about railfans and railroad police.

Just which part of the First Amendment is being violated in these incidents?

The First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."  -- The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

• Religion: The First Amendment prohibits government from establishing a religion and protects each person's right to practice (or not practice) any faith without government interference.
• Free speech: The First Amendment says that people have the right to speak freely without government interference.
• Free press: The First Amendment gives the press the right to publish news, information and opinions without government interference. This also means people have the right to publish their own newspapers, newsletters, magazines, etc.
• Assembly: The First Amendment says that people have the right to gather in public to march, protest, demonstrate, carry signs and otherwise express their views in a nonviolent way. It also means people can join and associate with groups and organizations without interference.
• Petition: The First Amendment says that people have the right to appeal to government in favor of or against policies that affect them or that they feel strongly about. This freedom includes the right to gather signatures in support of a cause and to lobby legislative bodies for or against legislation.

Free speech... photogrpahy from a public place is considered free speech.

Gotcha. But I believe all stations or platforms are leased/owned/maintained by Metra or any other railroad or towns for the use of train passengers. Which do not make them "public places" in the true legal sense, right? I suppose cops could also arrest a person for loitering in some of these places if they are not holding a ticket.

From what I read from googling the Internet tonight, the U.S. Supreme Court has never affirmed that taking photographs is protected under freedom of speech.

I did find a half-million different interpretations and court cases, though. That's why these cases often end up in court because that's where laws are interpreted.

Gabe?

Here's a great link to a pdf a lawyer wrote up that explains the law. 

http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

(Or lack of law in this case...) The freedom of speech idea comes from the fact that photography has been used in the past the same way that speeches and articles have been, to let the world know what is really happening, to make a statement, etc.

As to whether a platform is public property or not, I think it depends on the location.  It's really a grey area.  I read somewhere that there was a court case regarding whether shopping malls were public places, and the end result was that they were, even though they were private property, because of the expectation of free access and passage.  That being said, you can't take pictures in a lot of malls without having security come running after you.

Again, to repeat myself from the other thread - being polite and respectful when you are approached is the most important thing.  I've been approached many times, not just in the US, but on vacations in Canada and France too.  I've never been detained, but I have been asked to leave.  What did I do?  I left and found another spot to shoot pictures from.

[DMUinCT]

Freedom Of The Press. 

Photography is the recording of an event that MAY be news worthy and MAY be published.  Court rulings have held that photographing from "publicly owned property" is protected.   Photos taken from public sidewalks and streets are always allowed, to be otherwise would put the "Inside Edition" and "Entertainment Tonight" out of busiess.

BUT, after 911, a man with a bag and camera in a crowed place will always warrant checking (station platforms).  As a Policeman may, with suspicion, request information from you on a street, Railroad Police will do the same on Railroad Property, even if public owned or open to the public.

In taking photos, if the Rail Line is a privite company, and remember, most Commuter Railroads run on Rail Company tracks, then you are TRESPASSING on private property!  Do you know the rules for Right Of Way (ROW) Safety?  Do you know where to stand?  How far back?   Do you stand still and face the engineer of an approaching train?  Do you never stand between the rails or between two tracks?  You do know the engineer will radio in your location, a person on property without a Flagman and not in his "Orders", Railroad Police will investigate.  Take your photo and move along (fast).

If stopped, Carry Identification (Driver's Lic., Your Company ID Card, etc), any Railfan Membership Cards, a few prints of photos you have taken (some taken with Railroad permission would help), any magazines with your published photos. 

 

[Semper Vaporo]

...   Photos taken from public sidewalks and streets are always allowed, to be otherwise would put the "Inside Edition" and "Entertainment Tonight" out of busiess.

...

What an ugly trade-off!

 

[Poppa_Zit]

Freedom Of The Press.

Photography is the recording of an event that MAY be news worthy and MAY be published.

I wouldn't bet 2 cents on this defense. Too nebulous of a description. Railfans taking photos do not qualify as the press.

"Freedom of the press (or press freedom) is the guarantee by a government of free public press ... extended to members of legitimate news gathering organizations and their published reporting. It also extends to news gathering, and processes involved in obtaining information for public distribution."

If you are a full-time, credentialed photographer from, say, Trains magazine and on specific assignment from an editor, OK. Same if you can prove a freelance assignment to shoot exactly what you are shooting.

But if this sort of thing went to trial, I seriously doubt any court would allow railfans snapping photos to turn it into a Constitutional issue by claiming they were members of a "news gathering organization". And "obtaining information for public distribution" does not include photos gathered for display on personal web pages, "future books", etc., which would not be considered "public distribution". I doubt any judge would even allow these defenses.

I couldn't even find a clear definition of photography as a First Amendment right on the ACLU's website, and those cases are its bread and butter. If someone else can link us to a reputable opinion or court decision, please do so.  

There was a case in Chicago years ago when the "editor" (a lawyer) of a newsletter circulated in his apartment complex and neighborhood stores tried to sue one of the professional sports teams for not issuing him a "press pass" to gain free entry to the home games and give him access to the players. He claimed it was a violation of his Constitutional rights -- Freedom of the Press. Lawsuit was tossed out.     

[M636C]

In Australia, the same strange desire to restrict photography exists.

Unfortunately, the Minister for Transport of New South Wales (a state) was asked a question in Parliament in answering which he stated and I quote "it is not an offence to take a photograph on a train or on a station in NSW".

I carry a copy of this around with me. I was approached by a couple of Transit Police who told me that I should have asked permission to take photos. I showed them the Minister's statement and they admitted that I need not ask for permission as since what I was doing was "not an offence" my activity could not be restricted (as long as I had a ticket, stayed behind the yellow line, and was otherwise polite and helpful).

It also discourages overly enthusiastic staff from calling the police, since very little is to be gained if the police can't actually take you away since there is no "offence" involved.

M636C 

[oltmannd]

NS policy from their web site:

"It is permissible to photograph Norfolk Southern trains and operations from vantage points that are well away from railroad property. Trespassing on railroad property is a serious offense - one that could expose the trespasser to potential danger."

BNSF allows you to essentially register as a railfan: http://www.bnsf.com/media/news/articles/2006/06/2006-06-07a.html

 

[n012944]

if it would print a full page letter from Metra and other commuter train authorities and/or railroads signed by someone who is the boss saying that it is lawful to photograph their trains.  That way we could either have the mag or a xerox of the letter or a download from the website with us and keep it in our camera bags so we could show it to law enforcement.  

Just a thought.

Dave Nelson 

 

Of course, such a letter would have to exist first...

LC

LOL

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EHWORhT_UjE5E7QR6U3jlii0xsT1jiEHWW16P0rS1GKkPs1TOASo_tysM-UKF7evXF3g5oY5ec1421arBd2Y9rV4hUhC1iU8Yh2GUe1Br74AA5uEcA/Tribune%20Rail%20Photog%20Article/metraletter001.pdf

Here is one for Metra.

[ndbprr]

UH......., I really hate to enter this discussion because of the rhetoric and lack of law knowledge but has anyone considered either calling Metra or sending them a letter stating who you are, why you want to take pictures and asking for something or someone who could be a contact if a problem develops?  Those of us old enough to have knowledge of World War Two and restrictions including photographing of trains find this attitude of "My rights outwiegh yours" to be  pitiful, self centered, and disgusting.  Lest you think it couldn't happen here you better check your history book about the German infiltrators who were put ashore from a submarine on Long Island with a load of explosives.  Among their targets was Horsehoe Curve and Penn Station in New York.  I can just see them saying, "You are violating mny rights to congregate and do what I want any time and any place".  They were put in jail and rightly so.  Think there aren't Al quida people in the US.  Ask the relatives of the crashed planes and people in the World Trade Center.  Grow up!

[Willy2]

UH......., I really hate to enter this discussion because of the rhetoric and lack of law knowledge but has anyone considered either calling Metra or sending them a letter stating who you are, why you want to take pictures and asking for something or someone who could be a contact if a problem develops?  Those of us old enough to have knowledge of World War Two and restrictions including photographing of trains find this attitude of "My rights outwiegh yours" to be  pitiful, self centered, and disgusting.  Lest you think it couldn't happen here you better check your history book about the German infiltrators who were put ashore from a submarine on Long Island with a load of explosives.  Among their targets was Horsehoe Curve and Penn Station in New York.  I can just see them saying, "You are violating mny rights to congregate and do what I want any time and any place".  They were put in jail and rightly so.  Think there aren't Al quida people in the US.  Ask the relatives of the crashed planes and people in the World Trade Center.  Grow up!

They'll never do what you suggest for two reasons: 1) It's the logical thing to do and 2) It might help solve the problem which would be terrible because then they wouldn't be able to fight about it.

[Erie Lackawanna]

UH......., I really hate to enter this discussion because of the rhetoric and lack of law knowledge but has anyone considered either calling Metra or sending them a letter stating who you are, why you want to take pictures and asking for something or someone who could be a contact if a problem develops?  Those of us old enough to have knowledge of World War Two and restrictions including photographing of trains find this attitude of "My rights outwiegh yours" to be  pitiful, self centered, and disgusting.  Lest you think it couldn't happen here you better check your history book about the German infiltrators who were put ashore from a submarine on Long Island with a load of explosives.  Among their targets was Horsehoe Curve and Penn Station in New York.  I can just see them saying, "You are violating mny rights to congregate and do what I want any time and any place".  They were put in jail and rightly so.  Think there aren't Al quida people in the US.  Ask the relatives of the crashed planes and people in the World Trade Center.  Grow up!

I actually don't think you'd get a response.  I've tried this sort of thing myself with railroads and generally I don't get an answer.  If I do, it's basically, don't trespass, stay safe, there's no restriction on photography.

As to the German incident, was that World War I or WWII?  Steamtown has archives of the trial and the list of the spots they planned to hit, but I seem to remember WWI.

As to your comment that people have said the my rights are more important than your rights, and that there are no terrorists in the US today, would you be so kind as to point out where anyone said either of those things?  I can't find it.

The difference of course between WWII and today is that there was a law against photography of railroads during WWII.  There is no such law today.

[Simon Reed]

It was WWII.

Submarine technology was not sufficiently advanced during WWI.

There were also immense idealogical differences in US internal politics...

[Erie Lackawanna]

It was WWII.

Submarine technology was not sufficiently advanced during WWI.

There were also immense idealogical differences in US internal politics...

 Interesting - but there were World War I German spies in the US too, right?  Weren't there guards kept at many of the bridges on the Anthercite Roads because of a specific German threat?  I believe Steamtown has the archives of all of it.

[Poppa_Zit]

"Altoona, Pa., was important to the PRR and to the nation. To highlight this, the German government sent saboteurs to the United States in WWII. Eight men were given the assignment to destroy/sabotage 12 key industrial sites. The Altoona shops, Horseshoe Curve and Gallitzin Tunnels were on their list. Fortunately, they were captured before they could carry out their mission. Of the eight, six were executed and two imprisoned for life."

--from the Horseshoe Curve NRHS website

[Erie Lackawanna]

"Altoona, Pa., was important to the PRR and to the nation. To highlight this, the German government sent saboteurs to the United States in WWII. Eight men were given the assignment to destroy/sabotage 12 key industrial sites. The Altoona shops, Horseshoe Curve and Gallitzin Tunnels were on their list. Fortunately, they were captured before they could carry out their mission. Of the eight, six were executed and two imprisoned for life."

--from the Horseshoe Curve NRHS website

I did a little web research too... fascinating stuff.  The main incident was  the Amagansett landing in WWII.  Apparently they had a list of 50 bridges to blow up too.

The WWI incidents involved German nationals already living in the US and dated back to 1914, when the US was neutral. 

Look, it's absolutely true that bad guys want to destroy the US (and frankly always have). It's one reason railfans need to be vigiliant themselves about looking for odd behavior.  If I saw someone taking pictures of the bridge abutments and not the train, I'd probably jot down their plate and alert the RR myself.

Doesn't mean we can't enjoy our hobby if we do it safely, legally and politely.