zugmann wrote: Blame his parents?? For what??? Not filling the tank so he can go train chasing???
Blame his parents?? For what??? Not filling the tank so he can go train chasing???
No, of course not.
Pay attention to what Mookie says about another Forum member, and notice his own posts. His parents have done, and are doing, a great job--and so is he.
Most of us were teenagers ourselves at one time, and some of us have successfully raised our own kids. We encouraged our daughter in her interests, and took her to activities, classes, cxoncerts, etc. She's now married and pursuing her musical career on the west coast--but in return for sharing her ideals with her, I was rewarded with the most willing, interested, and knowledgeable train-chasing companion ever (sorry, Pat--she was better!)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Green Bay Paddlers wrote: Mookie wrote:Anyone else notice that the "teenaged railfan" has had no comment on his own posting? Maybe he isn't as passionate about his thoughts as some of the rest of us. Or maybe it is time to set new troll traps..... Can you blame him? He posted a few innocent questions and a bunch of grumpy old men jumped all over his case.
Mookie wrote:Anyone else notice that the "teenaged railfan" has had no comment on his own posting? Maybe he isn't as passionate about his thoughts as some of the rest of us. Or maybe it is time to set new troll traps.....
Can you blame him? He posted a few innocent questions and a bunch of grumpy old men jumped all over his case.
To me - the attitude has a whole lot to do with it.
Mook
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Green Bay Paddlers wrote: "These are the easiest years in your life,"Simply not true - not for teenagers living in today's society. These kids face more pressure than every before. I teach these kids and work with them every day. They certainly don't have it easy, regardless of what is said in these forums. Don't sell these kids short. They are amazing people.
"These are the easiest years in your life,"
Simply not true - not for teenagers living in today's society. These kids face more pressure than every before. I teach these kids and work with them every day. They certainly don't have it easy, regardless of what is said in these forums.
Don't sell these kids short. They are amazing people.
Come on, those of us growing up in cities faced drugs, guns, gangs, peer pressure, and the rest. It's nothing new.
Hey, P42... the bills may not come to an end, but the work CAN... save, $ave, $ave and $ave $ome more... and maybe you can retire early and enjoy not having to worry about the bills and can go railfanning a bit more often. I wish I had retired 40 years ago! I wish I had started saving MUCH earlier... like while I was in high school so I COULD have retired 40 years ago!
Save enough and maybe you can buy the railroad!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Blame his parents?? For what??? Not filling the tank so he can go train chasing??? First of all - we know nothing about the situation - so why don't we refrain from second-guessing his parental units?
These are the easiest years in your life, P42... after this it is nothing but work and bills.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Paddler, I, for one, am very tolerant of young railfans who show an interest and a willingness to learn. There are a few railroaders like us out there--Ed Blysard is another one (you have only to read his post about his crew and the handicapped young man to realize what he's made of).
P42 has alternatives that a lot of people don't have--he's not lacking in places to go, or trains or roads to take him there. He has some good ideas if he can share them with people. I almost blame his parents for not at least taking an interest in what he would like to do. We have some young people on this Forum who relate their experiences, including the fact that their parents take them to these places. I've met a couple of these people and their parents, and know that the parents aren't always interested in railroads (we allowed one mother to go shopping with my wife while we watched trains), but they do have an interest in their kids. If this SUV isn't P42's own, perhaps his parents are more tolerant than he realizes.
Without knowing distances involved, I'd guess that it's possible, if not feasible, for P42 to get to some of these places--school, museums, the nearest tracks--without using the gas guzzler. A bike trip or a hike might improve health in the bargain.
(And yes, I got through most of the 60s without any television, spent my high-school and college days without a car to call my own, and still use a bicycle as much as possible for the eight-mile trip to work, the six-mile trip to the hobby shop, or the 15-mile trip to another good railfanning location--I'm getting a little old for the 75-mile bike trip to Rochelle. All of these are one-way distances, by the way.)
railroadjj wrote:If you are 50 feet from any track you are on public property, but if the police show up they can still confiscate your camera or film which ever they choice if the railroad wants it.
Green Bay Paddlers wrote: some kid that is interested in railfanning and gets flamed ("Boo hoo, you can't fill up your SUV.")
a lot of you guys crack me up. "Back when I was your age...." Get over it. I guarantee most of you guys were complaining back in the 1950's about only owning ONE tv. I'm sure those who lived through the Great Depression thought YOU guys were spoiled brats too.
Why is it that railfans are some of the most intolerant hobbyists out there? Whether it is a kid that gets killed by a train by cutting across the railyard ("Serves him right - shouldn't be trespassing") or some kid that is interested in railfanning and gets flamed ("Boo hoo, you can't fill up your SUV.")
Come on guys - show a little tolerance for your fellow human beings. This kid just had a few simple questions. Way to embrace the future of our hobby by making him feel accepted.
Please feel free to go back to your cynical look at society and remain concealed behind your monitors. I'm sure you'll solve all of the world's problems from your desks. LOL
railroadjj wrote:To clerify for everyone especially the person who said dont get any closer than a crossing arm will allow a car. If you are not at a crossing just say out in a field, the railroad owns the land from the center of the tracks out to 50 feet. So if you are as close to the tracks as the crossing arm will allow the cars to get, you are tresspassing. If a railroad employee ask you to wait in the office for the police to show up I would strongly advice you go to the office. Railroad employees are federal employees. If you are 50 feet from any track you are on public property, but if the police show up they can still confiscate your camera or film which ever they choice if the railroad wants it. Granted you should get it back in a day or so if the railroad does not find your photos to be a threat. You have to realize that 911 here in America did a number on every type of transportation industry. Infact there were 2 guys in Chicago that got arrested for taking pictures of a rare locomotive that had to be put back into service by METRA. Just be careful, if you can make sure you wear something that is highly visible so that the trains can see you and not scare the crap out of them when they come around.
I'm really suprised there's been only one comment about this post. JJ wrote that the police can confiscate your camera and film if the railroad wants it when you were shooting from public property? The railroad has ZERO say in this, and the police have to have justifiable cause to search anything of yours. They can ask and you can show them if you want (I have done so when asked and it's always been fine.)
Plus, you didn't tell the whole story. The two guys you are referring to in Chicago received an apology from the police for having bothered them. 9/11 didn't take away the Bill of Rights.
This is a free country. Now, if you're trespassing, then the police have cause to supsect your actions and the rules change... SO DON'T TRESPASS.
When you are young, biking is probably the best alternative to driving a gas guzzling SUV (or any gasoline powered vehicle). If I had had a bike as a kid and continued to ride one throughout my adult life, maybe things would be different, but now my knees won't let me do much in the way of riding any distance, and there are "up hills" both directions for me to get to any tracks. Besides, bicycling with a cane looks a bit silly!
I am sure today's teens don't see themselves as being "spoiled", though those of us that grew up making our own toys, see the kid with store bought things as missing so much in the joy of life.
You are right about building memories. And good ones are a whole lot better than bad ones! Remembering when the family went railfanning together is better than remembering when the police came and arrested Dad or brother or yerself for doing something else. And having anything to remember is better than whatever was fun while you were so stoned that you can't remember what it was. You make your own memories, so make 'em good enough to want them to last.
You're probably right, Always Steamin', about the railroads being part of every small community. Now, even the places that have nearby railroads think of them as little different than power lines, and there's no longer the local agent, in most cases, to tie the railroad to the community.
But in the years in which some of today's spoiled teens are whining about not being able to fill up SUVs, I was discovering the limits of my bicycling capabilities when necessary, and cultivating friendships with other hobbyists, my age and above, my town and others (by mail, not by phone). These friendshiops got me to Chicago, and riding trains out of Chicago at a time when that place was 200 miles from home.
And let's not overlook some indulgent parents, who planned parts of family outings that included something for everyone. I think that during my high-school years, that was a far more satisfactory option than having them say, here's a car--have fun! I already had my magazine subscriptions and was not inclined to share, but my parents, to their credit, bought their own issues of Trains at times when they felt they needed to know a little more about what was going on with me.
And most importantly, one must realize that all of this is hindsight for me, and the best railfanning of my life is the result of what I'm doing to aid my cause right now. Complaining doesn't cut it--just go, have fun, and make yourself some nostalgia to look back on.
Yeah, but "way back then" when "we" was teens, few people lived where there were no RR tracks within walking distance. The old communities haven't moved, but the tracks have been removed. New communities have not had a need to be built near the once major transportation system, but now advertise, "Easy access to the Interstate."
Midnight Railroader wrote: P42 108 wrote: filling up my SUV is not easyIf this is one of your problems, be thankful. Most of us barely had a car at all when we were teens.
P42 108 wrote: filling up my SUV is not easy
filling up my SUV is not easy
I was "post teen" before I had my first car, I would walk or ride my bike wherever I needed to go, and was able to do a lot of railfanning.
Being Crazy,keeps you from going "INSANE" !! "The light at the end of the tunnel,has been turned off due to budget cuts" NOT AFRAID A Vet., and PROUD OF IT!!
High School is a cakewalk... and it won't get any easier. If your only problem is you can't afford gas - consider yourself lucky! Take the time to stick to local RRs. Work on local photography, or stay at home and read up on your history until you can afford railfanning. The years will past fast enough, trust me.
As a high school teacher, I completely understand where you are coming from. Teenagers aren't taken seriously by society. I read your post and took a much different approach than Mookie. I was thinking to myself, "what a pleasant young adult who typed an intelligent post and listed a great many real concerns." You didn't specify that the SUV was yours. In fact, I read to mean that this is your parents' vehicle and you are required to fuel it when you use it. My parents made me do the same thing, and that was back when gas was a buck a gallon!
Hang in there my friend. It's tough at this age in your life. You're bound by parental restrictions, high school (a full-time job, in my opinion,) and your passion for railfanning. I agree with the second poster about the bicycle. However, I've also travelled extensively in the northeast and I know that isn't always safe or feasible. Many of those roads are windy and narrow, built for horses in the 1600's and 1700's. Cars speed down them and it can be dangerous for someone on a bicycle.
By my handle, you may have discerned that I have a passion for canoes. I have found that to be a great way to railfan. If you can find a stretch of river (like the lower Wisconsin River) where there are a great deal of rail bridges, it is a great way to railfan. Drop an anchor, fish for awhile (or read a book), and then get your camera out.
Good luck and safe railfanning!
Paddler
edblysard wrote: Sempor,Please show me what part of the Federal or your State's Constitution requires you to carry a photographic id, or a drivers license.[end quote]I didn't say anything about any requirement to carry any ID. I said the Police Officer may ask to see identification so he can fill out his report. [continue quote user="edblysard"] The US Supreme court was quite clear in its ruling towards the requirements of identification.Nothing in the Federal Constitution requires any US citizen to carry any form of photographic id.A drivers license is nothing more that a permit, issued by your state, that allows you to operate a motorized vehicle on that states public roads.The fact that it has become a de-facto form of photographic ID is not law.Now, certain types of and places of employment, such as government offices/ agencies and law enforcement jobs do require a person to carry a employee id, (a government/employer issued badge, ID card, uniform, things like that) but all "the law" requires of the everyday citizen to that, when questioned by a law enforcement officer, they must identify themselves in a truthful manner...in other words, all you have to do is tell the officer your correct name, and offer enough details, such as an address, that the officer can establish that you are who you say you are...the burden of proof is not on the citizen, but on the officer.Now, if the officer can not easily establish your identification, based on what you provide, he or she may detain you until such time as they can establish that identification.I do not, and will not carry my driver's license while on duty...in fact, I don't carry a wallet at all while on duty, my railroad id is on a beaded chain around my neck, and I do this on purpose.[end quote] I agree with you and I don't think I said anything to the contrary. [continue quote user="edblysard"] If you are a railroad employee, and involved in a grade crossing accident, and the investigating police officer request you driver's license, if you comply, it is quite possible to have a "motor vehicle accident" notation added to your driving record, even though you were not operating a motor vehicle on public roads, and having such a notation in your driving record increases your automobile insurance, and if your state uses the point system, can result in points being removed from you license.My current engineer has had that happen to him, and after 3 years, is still waging a battle through the court system to have the notation removed from his records.I have been confronted by a HPD officer, who demanded I give him my driver's license as a form of ID, refused my railroad issued ID, and was attempting to arrest me, when our trainmaster arrived, along with our safety office, (who happens to be the company attorney too)...after a heated debate, that included the police officer's supervisor, I was released, because there simply is no requirement in our legal system for you, me or anyone else to carry a drivers license, except when engaged in operating a motorized vehicle on public roads.(not having one when so engaged is nothng more than a class "C" misdomeanor)[end quote]I have heard these stories before and it really boggles my mind that such can happen. The "demand" for your driver's license is silly (to me, anyway) as there are still many people in the U.S. that do not have one. Just because you can drive a train does not mean that you have ever been at the wheel of an automobile on a public highway or ever will be.States do issue ID cards to people that request them so they can have something to show when at the local wally-world and want to write a check. But not everybody has or wants to have one... and like you said, there is no legal requirement for a "citizen" to carry anything like it. Does an airplane pilot get a traffic citation if he survives a plane crash onto a public highway???? [continue quote user="edblysard"] Again, nothing in our "laws" requires you or any other citizen to produce any form of photographic ID...all it requires of you is that you must provide enough detailed information for a police or law enforcement officer to readily confirm you are who you say you are...nothing more is required.What about the folks who don't have drivers licenses?According to your statement, they are automatically "breaking the law"...[end quote]Please enlighten me. Where did I say anything about "automatically breaking the law". I certainly did not intend to imply any such thing. You should follow your company's directives in all matters. If that is breaking the law, then your company is in bigger trouble. Granted, you need to apply some common sense to the company directives and don't deliberately break the law if you know a directive contradicts the law... (e.g.: Nuremburg Trial defense doesn't work). (The only thing wrong about "common sense" is that it is not "common" and often makes no "sense".)City code is subordinate to State Law, and State Law is subordinate to Federal Statute (at least that is how "I" understand it) and you, the railroad employee are mainly under the Federal Statutes, so you do what the Federal Statutes require. The local Police "should" know that and act accordingly. Of course, "should" and "does" are two different things! [continue quote user="edblysard"] Oh, and no one signs my paycheck...it is a wire transfer direct deposit.[end quote]I just knew somebody would say that! I ain't sure if you are doing so "tongue in cheek" or are really just confused. My point is, you are PAID by your EMPLOYER and your EMPLOYER is the RAILROAD, not a FEDERAL organization. Thus you are a RAILROAD EMPLOYEE, not a FEDERAL EMPLOYEE. Governed by FEDERAL statute, but EMPLOYED BY the RAILROAD. You were HIRED (and can be fired) by the RAILROAD, not the FEDERAL government. You are an EMPLOYEE of an EMPLOYER and your EMPLOYER is the organization that pays you... whether that be by a paycheck, direct deposit or cash under the table... and even if that cash is in any size denomination paper bill that has the signatures of the Treasurer of the United States and the Secretary of the Treasury, it was given to you by your EMPLOYER, not the dad-gummit.I will soon be paid by the FEDERAL government, but I STILL won't be a FEDERAL EMPLOYEE, 'cuzz the payment will be from the Socialable Secretely folk and I will not be "EMPLOYED" by the gummit to accomplish anything. (That just absolutely tickles me! yeah, yeah, yeah, it was my money to begin with... don't go pokin' at my pretty bubble... allow me one fantasy.) [silly aside here]Several years ago, I had to go to the store over my lunch time and just happened to see my wife there also. I snuck up behind her and said, in an authoritive voice; "Pull it over lady, you got a license to shop." I thought I was being funny, she Semper Vaporo Pkgs. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:43 AM This is very true. My pay is direct deposit also, so a signature is not required. Reply Edit edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Sunday, June 10, 2007 5:44 AM Sempor,Please show me what part of the Federal or your State's Constitution requires you to carry a photographic id, or a drivers license.The US Supreme court was quite clear in its ruling towards the requirements of identification.Nothing in the Federal Constitution requires any US citizen to carry any form of photographic id.A drivers license is nothing more that a permit, issued by your state, that allows you to operate a motorized vehicle on that states public roads.The fact that it has become a de-facto form of photographic ID is not law.Now, certain types of and places of employment, such as government offices/ agencies and law enforcement jobs do require a person to carry a employee id, (a government/employer issued badge, ID card, uniform, things like that) but all "the law" requires of the everyday citizen to that, when questioned by a law enforcement officer, they must identify themselves in a truthful manner...in other words, all you have to do is tell the officer your correct name, and offer enough details, such as an address, that the officer can establish that you are who you say you are...the burden of proof is not on the citizen, but on the officer.Now, if the officer can not easily establish your identification, based on what you provide, he or she may detain you until such time as they can establish that identification.I do not, and will not carry my driver's license while on duty...in fact, I don't carry a wallet at all while on duty, my railroad id is on a beaded chain around my neck, and I do this on purpose.If you are a railroad employee, and involved in a grade crossing accident, and the investigating police officer request you driver's license, if you comply, it is quite possible to have a "motor vehicle accident" notation added to your driving record, even though you were not operating a motor vehicle on public roads, and having such a notation in your driving record increases your automobile insurance, and if your state uses the point system, can result in points being removed from you license.My current engineer has had that happen to him, and after 3 years, is still waging a battle through the court system to have the notation removed from his records.I have been confronted by a HPD officer, who demanded I give him my driver's license as a form of ID, refused my railroad issued ID, and was attempting to arrest me, when our trainmaster arrived, along with our safety office, (who happens to be the company attorney too)...after a heated debate, that included the police officer's supervisor, I was released, because there simply is no requirement in our legal system for you, me or anyone else to carry a drivers license, except when engaged in operating a motorized vehicle on public roads.(not having one when so engaged is nothng more than a class "C" misdomeanor) Again, nothing in our "laws" requires you or any other citizen to produce any form of photographic ID...all it requires of you is that you must provide enough detailed information for a police or law enforcement officer to readily confirm you are who you say you are...nothing more is required. What about the folks who don't have drivers licenses?According to your statement, they are automatically "breaking the law"...Oh, and no one signs my paycheck...it is a wire transfer direct deposit.I work under a federally governed cotract, whichs rules and such are enforced by the FRA, under federal guidlines and we work in compliance with federal guidlines and regulations.Our retirement system is managed by the federal governement.Our engineers license are issued by the railroad you work for, under federal guidlines, and we have to meet requirements set and enforced by the federal government. 23 17 46 11 Reply Semper Vaporo Member sinceApril 2007 From: Iowa 3,293 posts Posted by Semper Vaporo on Sunday, June 10, 2007 4:19 AM Who signs your paycheck? The Secretary of the Treasury of the United States, or the Treasurer of your Railroad? If it is the former, then you are a Federal Employee, if it is the latter then you are a Railroad Employee. A matter of semantics, maybe, but Railroad Employees are NOT "Federal Employees". An Employee is someone that is "employed" BY an organization and a RAILROAD employee is employed by the RAILROAD, not the Federal Government or any federal organization. Railroads are "Corporations" that are incorporated in a State. But because they perform "interstate commerce", they are governed by Federal Laws, but that does not make their employees to be "Federal Employees". If a Police Officer asks a railroad employee for his/her "Driver's License", it is to establish "identification" using an accepted form of identification used by the State in which they are in. It is not to see if he can drive a car... it is to establish WHO the railroad employee is. The Police Officer's request should be phrased as: "Show me some photo identification, please?" If the employee has a Railroad issued PHOTO identification, then that "should" suffice. But the employee should follow the particular RR's directives as to what should or should not be produced per the Police Officer's request.The reasons an Officer would ask for identification are varied, but are usually the result of the Officer performing the duty assigned by the community; be that community is: Town, City, County/Parrish, State, or YES, even the Federal community as a whole. All the ordinances and laws of those communities are the Police Officers duty in an order where the larger community takes precedence over the smaller one, no matter which community "employs" the Officer. The Officer has paper work to fill out to record what duty was performed and why. And that includes identifying the people involved.But, back to the "second" thing this thread DEvolved into... (or is it the "third"?) What do you, the railfan, do when confronted by someone that tells you that you are to be detained for taking photos of railroad equipment? If you are on public property, stand your ground (within reason). If you are trespassing, you're toast!Back to the original question... well..., you don't have to be a teenager to not have the funds to pursue your railfan hobby. Before I retired, I expected that when I did I would spend more time railfanning, but now that I have retired, the price of gasoline has put a major crimp in that "more time railfanning" facit of retirement. I try to arrange necessary car trips to include time to stop at my favourite spots for a little bit of railfanning. Semper Vaporo Pkgs. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 10, 2007 2:20 AM Actually I worked for 2 years for the railroad, and also have my engineers card. I know all about train crews and where you are trespassing on RR property. The 50 feet does play a whole big part in the safety factor. You are correct. There are some portions like roads that the rail roads on that have signs posted. I agree that some officers should go bullistick. There is one railfan that I have seen in Peoria that was maybe 15 feet from the tracks. If I was an officer of the law I would have went bolistic. He would have been in the back of the car in just a matter of seconds. Some think that nothing will happen so they can get the perfect photo. 9 times out of 10 they are correct, but then you have that one time when a car just rolls over. Railroad employees are federal employees. This is why if a train hits and kills someone the train crew does not have to obide by what the police officer says. He will ask for a drivers license and the train crew is not supost to give it to them at all. They can see the enginners card, but that is it. Yes, you are correct that the trespassing is a sticky situation. But 50 feet from the center of the track in either direction is railroad property. Railroad officals have identifaction that states there position with the railroad. If they ask you to go with them , then ask for the ID. If they cant produce it, then you are right you dont know why they really are. Reply Edit Ham549 Member sinceJanuary 2002 229 posts Posted by Ham549 on Saturday, June 9, 2007 9:07 PM Wow why do you need a SUV (kind of ironic haveing a overpriced and costely POS and haveing a screen name with "P42" in it LOL) you could always sell your SUV and get a car with better MPG. Save the F40PH! Reply cordon Member sinceJanuary 2004 From: Frisco, TX 483 posts Posted by cordon on Saturday, June 9, 2007 4:38 PM The mention of flashbulbs above stirred a memory. My father took me to Salem, MA, one night (around 1952) to watch some yard action. After I had taken a few pics with flashbulbs a breathless RR worker ran up to me and said, "Oh, thank God." He had thought something on one of the cars was fouling the power lines overhead. I said, "Sorry." He said, "I hope the pictures come out. See you." He exchanged a few what I thought were pleasantries with my father and walked back to work.I don't know how far he ran, but he was really out of breath. I always felt guilty about scaring him that much. Reply Semper Vaporo Member sinceApril 2007 From: Iowa 3,293 posts Posted by Semper Vaporo on Saturday, June 9, 2007 12:20 PM railroadjj:I appreciate what you say. But, my point about the grade crossing arms was that of safety, not trespass. If you are in a field, no matter where the railroad tracks are, you are on somebody's property and are trespassing. Also, the 50-ft you mention could be too few in places where the RR has property that does not necessarily have tracks on it.As for whether to obey an order for you to go with them, that is a sticky wicket. The RR employee is not a "Federal employee", but IS governed by Federal statutes and has some authority that is Federally mandated, but, if you KNOW you are on public property, then their order for you to go to someplace that is not on public property is iffy at best.My comment was based on "you" (nuttin personal here, just the general reader hereof) being an inexperienced youth, with an emphasis on being inexperienced and youth. There are always circumstances where you might want to go to an office anyway, but if the office is unoccupied by anyone but the person telling you to do so, then caution is advised. Women drivers are told that if a car pulls up behind them with flashing red lights and they are in an area where there are no other people, they then should pull over, but NOT stop; rather, proceed at a slow speed to the nearest PUBLIC place where there are other people present, and then stop. Granted, there are police officers that will go ballistic with this "stunt", (I have seen videos of it!) but a few years ago there were several women that were attacked on lonely sections of road by a man posing as a policeman and this tack has been recommended and endorsed by National police organizations.I am sure you are thinking of an office bustling with people and I am thinking of one with only one or two employees present at the time. It is a judgment call at the time and I did say to wait for the police as a sign of cooperation. Belligerence, ("Ya' can't make me do nuttin, ya' gol'daing'ed ihjut!") is not the way to respond. Rather, cooperation ("Yes, sir, I would be glad to wait here for a UNIFORMED Police Officer so I can explain my presence on this public property. Thank you.") will go a lot farther toward getting more photos.I agree that you should wear clothing that is easily visible. Don't hide in camouflage fatigues behind a tree or bridge abutment and then jump out with a long lens camera aimed at the cab to shoot a photo. They might "shoot" back in a different sense of the word.O. Winston Link took photos with the full knowledge of the crews so that his bazillion flashbulbs wouldn't knock the crew out of the cab. I remember reading of another photographer that put a large sign on an easel at one grade crossing and then took a position at the next grade crossing. The sign was was a drawing of an old style Hollywood movie camera (Mickey Mouse ear looking thingy) with the word "SMILE", and under that was the word "Next" with a drawing of a crossbuck. I understand this produced lots of good whistling! Semper Vaporo Pkgs. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Saturday, June 9, 2007 11:44 AM Well in case you never heard the adage here it is "if you can afford the Cadallic then for sure you can afford the gas". That is a saying from way back in my hi school days. P42 108 wrote: Being a railfan is not easy these days, even with trains all around me. As a resident in central Connecticut, there is Amtrak's Springfield Line directly to my east, Metro-North's Waterbury Branch and Housatonic Railroad to my west, The Northeast Corridor to my south and CSX's Boston Line to my North. All wonderful places to visit, not to mention tourist railroads such as the Essex Steam Train and the Naugatuck Railroad. Despite my close proximity to railroads, getting there is not easy. As gas prices climb above $3 a gallon, filling up my SUV is not easy. I drive to school everyday (the charter school I attend does not provide transportation) and there is barely enough gas in my tank left to spare for railfanning. Somehow though I always manage to make it out by saving money. So it made me think. Do other teenagers have the same problems as I do? Neither of my parents are into the hobby, so I don't have the advantage of a parent who goes to see the trains themselves. Plus, gas prices are not the only problem. Getting there is only half the fun! Once I get to a particular location, with exception to the tourist railroads, I have to deal with police and railroad officials...some of whom are far less than friendly. Some people, even some people who work for a railroad themselves, cannot understand what being a railfan is all about. What are the options for young railfans nowadays? I have a few ideas. 1) TAKE THE TRAIN. When I visit CSX on the Boston Line, I will often leave my truck and take an Amtrak train up to Springfield. This saves gas and I get a train ride on top of it. Of course this has some cons as well. Once I am in Springfield, the only option is to sit there without being able to drive over to Palmer or CSX's West Springfield Yard...but it is better than not going at all. 2) CARPOOL. Even though I don't have many close friends who are railfans, I do have one. Him and I often go half and half on gas and we can visit more places that way. This is similar to what my father does. When he and his friends go fishing they all chip in to go. I hope these ideas are helpful. I would like to know what other problems face railfans out there...young or old. Chances are I have experienced them myself. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply scottychaos Member sinceJuly 2004 From: Rochester NY 335 posts Posted by scottychaos on Saturday, June 9, 2007 11:10 AM you have your OWN SUV?I didnt have my own car until after college, and I could afford to buy one.somehow, I dont think you are that badly off! ;) Scot Reply 123 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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Sempor,
Please show me what part of the Federal or your State's Constitution requires you to carry a photographic id, or a drivers license.
[end quote]
I didn't say anything about any requirement to carry any ID. I said the Police Officer may ask to see identification so he can fill out his report.
[continue quote user="edblysard"]
The US Supreme court was quite clear in its ruling towards the requirements of identification.
Nothing in the Federal Constitution requires any US citizen to carry any form of photographic id.
A drivers license is nothing more that a permit, issued by your state, that allows you to operate a motorized vehicle on that states public roads.
The fact that it has become a de-facto form of photographic ID is not law.
Now, certain types of and places of employment, such as government offices/ agencies and law enforcement jobs do require a person to carry a employee id, (a government/employer issued badge, ID card, uniform, things like that) but all "the law" requires of the everyday citizen to that, when questioned by a law enforcement officer, they must identify themselves in a truthful manner...in other words, all you have to do is tell the officer your correct name, and offer enough details, such as an address, that the officer can establish that you are who you say you are...the burden of proof is not on the citizen, but on the officer.
Now, if the officer can not easily establish your identification, based on what you provide, he or she may detain you until such time as they can establish that identification.
I do not, and will not carry my driver's license while on duty...in fact, I don't carry a wallet at all while on duty, my railroad id is on a beaded chain around my neck, and I do this on purpose.
I agree with you and I don't think I said anything to the contrary.
If you are a railroad employee, and involved in a grade crossing accident, and the investigating police officer request you driver's license, if you comply, it is quite possible to have a "motor vehicle accident" notation added to your driving record, even though you were not operating a motor vehicle on public roads, and having such a notation in your driving record increases your automobile insurance, and if your state uses the point system, can result in points being removed from you license.
My current engineer has had that happen to him, and after 3 years, is still waging a battle through the court system to have the notation removed from his records.
I have been confronted by a HPD officer, who demanded I give him my driver's license as a form of ID, refused my railroad issued ID, and was attempting to arrest me, when our trainmaster arrived, along with our safety office, (who happens to be the company attorney too)...after a heated debate, that included the police officer's supervisor, I was released, because there simply is no requirement in our legal system for you, me or anyone else to carry a drivers license, except when engaged in operating a motorized vehicle on public roads.
(not having one when so engaged is nothng more than a class "C" misdomeanor)
I have heard these stories before and it really boggles my mind that such can happen. The "demand" for your driver's license is silly (to me, anyway) as there are still many people in the U.S. that do not have one. Just because you can drive a train does not mean that you have ever been at the wheel of an automobile on a public highway or ever will be.
States do issue ID cards to people that request them so they can have something to show when at the local wally-world and want to write a check. But not everybody has or wants to have one... and like you said, there is no legal requirement for a "citizen" to carry anything like it. Does an airplane pilot get a traffic citation if he survives a plane crash onto a public highway????
Again, nothing in our "laws" requires you or any other citizen to produce any form of photographic ID...all it requires of you is that you must provide enough detailed information for a police or law enforcement officer to readily confirm you are who you say you are...nothing more is required.
What about the folks who don't have drivers licenses?
According to your statement, they are automatically "breaking the law"...
Please enlighten me. Where did I say anything about "automatically breaking the law". I certainly did not intend to imply any such thing. You should follow your company's directives in all matters. If that is breaking the law, then your company is in bigger trouble. Granted, you need to apply some common sense to the company directives and don't deliberately break the law if you know a directive contradicts the law... (e.g.: Nuremburg Trial defense doesn't work). (The only thing wrong about "common sense" is that it is not "common" and often makes no "sense".)
City code is subordinate to State Law, and State Law is subordinate to Federal Statute (at least that is how "I" understand it) and you, the railroad employee are mainly under the Federal Statutes, so you do what the Federal Statutes require. The local Police "should" know that and act accordingly. Of course, "should" and "does" are two different things!
Oh, and no one signs my paycheck...it is a wire transfer direct deposit.
I just knew somebody would say that! I ain't sure if you are doing so "tongue in cheek" or are really just confused. My point is, you are PAID by your EMPLOYER and your EMPLOYER is the RAILROAD, not a FEDERAL organization. Thus you are a RAILROAD EMPLOYEE, not a FEDERAL EMPLOYEE. Governed by FEDERAL statute, but EMPLOYED BY the RAILROAD. You were HIRED (and can be fired) by the RAILROAD, not the FEDERAL government. You are an EMPLOYEE of an EMPLOYER and your EMPLOYER is the organization that pays you... whether that be by a paycheck, direct deposit or cash under the table... and even if that cash is in any size denomination paper bill that has the signatures of the Treasurer of the United States and the Secretary of the Treasury, it was given to you by your EMPLOYER, not the dad-gummit.
I will soon be paid by the FEDERAL government, but I STILL won't be a FEDERAL EMPLOYEE, 'cuzz the payment will be from the Socialable Secretely folk and I will not be "EMPLOYED" by the gummit to accomplish anything. (That just absolutely tickles me! yeah, yeah, yeah, it was my money to begin with... don't go pokin' at my pretty bubble... allow me one fantasy.)
[silly aside here]
Several years ago, I had to go to the store over my lunch time and just happened to see my wife there also. I snuck up behind her and said, in an authoritive voice; "Pull it over lady, you got a license to shop." I thought I was being funny, she
I work under a federally governed cotract, whichs rules and such are enforced by the FRA, under federal guidlines and we work in compliance with federal guidlines and regulations.
Our retirement system is managed by the federal governement.
Our engineers license are issued by the railroad you work for, under federal guidlines, and we have to meet requirements set and enforced by the federal government.
23 17 46 11
Who signs your paycheck? The Secretary of the Treasury of the United States, or the Treasurer of your Railroad? If it is the former, then you are a Federal Employee, if it is the latter then you are a Railroad Employee. A matter of semantics, maybe, but Railroad Employees are NOT "Federal Employees". An Employee is someone that is "employed" BY an organization and a RAILROAD employee is employed by the RAILROAD, not the Federal Government or any federal organization. Railroads are "Corporations" that are incorporated in a State. But because they perform "interstate commerce", they are governed by Federal Laws, but that does not make their employees to be "Federal Employees".
If a Police Officer asks a railroad employee for his/her "Driver's License", it is to establish "identification" using an accepted form of identification used by the State in which they are in. It is not to see if he can drive a car... it is to establish WHO the railroad employee is. The Police Officer's request should be phrased as: "Show me some photo identification, please?" If the employee has a Railroad issued PHOTO identification, then that "should" suffice. But the employee should follow the particular RR's directives as to what should or should not be produced per the Police Officer's request.
The reasons an Officer would ask for identification are varied, but are usually the result of the Officer performing the duty assigned by the community; be that community is: Town, City, County/Parrish, State, or YES, even the Federal community as a whole. All the ordinances and laws of those communities are the Police Officers duty in an order where the larger community takes precedence over the smaller one, no matter which community "employs" the Officer. The Officer has paper work to fill out to record what duty was performed and why. And that includes identifying the people involved.
But, back to the "second" thing this thread DEvolved into... (or is it the "third"?) What do you, the railfan, do when confronted by someone that tells you that you are to be detained for taking photos of railroad equipment? If you are on public property, stand your ground (within reason). If you are trespassing, you're toast!
Back to the original question... well..., you don't have to be a teenager to not have the funds to pursue your railfan hobby. Before I retired, I expected that when I did I would spend more time railfanning, but now that I have retired, the price of gasoline has put a major crimp in that "more time railfanning" facit of retirement. I try to arrange necessary car trips to include time to stop at my favourite spots for a little bit of railfanning.
Wow why do you need a SUV (kind of ironic haveing a overpriced and costely POS and haveing a screen name with "P42" in it LOL) you could always sell your SUV and get a car with better MPG.
The mention of flashbulbs above stirred a memory. My father took me to Salem, MA, one night (around 1952) to watch some yard action. After I had taken a few pics with flashbulbs a breathless RR worker ran up to me and said, "Oh, thank God." He had thought something on one of the cars was fouling the power lines overhead. I said, "Sorry." He said, "I hope the pictures come out. See you." He exchanged a few what I thought were pleasantries with my father and walked back to work.
I don't know how far he ran, but he was really out of breath. I always felt guilty about scaring him that much.
railroadjj:
I appreciate what you say. But, my point about the grade crossing arms was that of safety, not trespass. If you are in a field, no matter where the railroad tracks are, you are on somebody's property and are trespassing. Also, the 50-ft you mention could be too few in places where the RR has property that does not necessarily have tracks on it.
As for whether to obey an order for you to go with them, that is a sticky wicket. The RR employee is not a "Federal employee", but IS governed by Federal statutes and has some authority that is Federally mandated, but, if you KNOW you are on public property, then their order for you to go to someplace that is not on public property is iffy at best.
My comment was based on "you" (nuttin personal here, just the general reader hereof) being an inexperienced youth, with an emphasis on being inexperienced and youth. There are always circumstances where you might want to go to an office anyway, but if the office is unoccupied by anyone but the person telling you to do so, then caution is advised. Women drivers are told that if a car pulls up behind them with flashing red lights and they are in an area where there are no other people, they then should pull over, but NOT stop; rather, proceed at a slow speed to the nearest PUBLIC place where there are other people present, and then stop. Granted, there are police officers that will go ballistic with this "stunt", (I have seen videos of it!) but a few years ago there were several women that were attacked on lonely sections of road by a man posing as a policeman and this tack has been recommended and endorsed by National police organizations.
I am sure you are thinking of an office bustling with people and I am thinking of one with only one or two employees present at the time. It is a judgment call at the time and I did say to wait for the police as a sign of cooperation. Belligerence, ("Ya' can't make me do nuttin, ya' gol'daing'ed ihjut!") is not the way to respond. Rather, cooperation ("Yes, sir, I would be glad to wait here for a UNIFORMED Police Officer so I can explain my presence on this public property. Thank you.") will go a lot farther toward getting more photos.
I agree that you should wear clothing that is easily visible. Don't hide in camouflage fatigues behind a tree or bridge abutment and then jump out with a long lens camera aimed at the cab to shoot a photo. They might "shoot" back in a different sense of the word.
O. Winston Link took photos with the full knowledge of the crews so that his bazillion flashbulbs wouldn't knock the crew out of the cab. I remember reading of another photographer that put a large sign on an easel at one grade crossing and then took a position at the next grade crossing. The sign was was a drawing of an old style Hollywood movie camera (Mickey Mouse ear looking thingy) with the word "SMILE", and under that was the word "Next" with a drawing of a crossbuck. I understand this produced lots of good whistling!
Well in case you never heard the adage here it is "if you can afford the Cadallic then for sure you can afford the gas". That is a saying from way back in my hi school days.
P42 108 wrote: Being a railfan is not easy these days, even with trains all around me. As a resident in central Connecticut, there is Amtrak's Springfield Line directly to my east, Metro-North's Waterbury Branch and Housatonic Railroad to my west, The Northeast Corridor to my south and CSX's Boston Line to my North. All wonderful places to visit, not to mention tourist railroads such as the Essex Steam Train and the Naugatuck Railroad. Despite my close proximity to railroads, getting there is not easy. As gas prices climb above $3 a gallon, filling up my SUV is not easy. I drive to school everyday (the charter school I attend does not provide transportation) and there is barely enough gas in my tank left to spare for railfanning. Somehow though I always manage to make it out by saving money. So it made me think. Do other teenagers have the same problems as I do? Neither of my parents are into the hobby, so I don't have the advantage of a parent who goes to see the trains themselves. Plus, gas prices are not the only problem. Getting there is only half the fun! Once I get to a particular location, with exception to the tourist railroads, I have to deal with police and railroad officials...some of whom are far less than friendly. Some people, even some people who work for a railroad themselves, cannot understand what being a railfan is all about. What are the options for young railfans nowadays? I have a few ideas. 1) TAKE THE TRAIN. When I visit CSX on the Boston Line, I will often leave my truck and take an Amtrak train up to Springfield. This saves gas and I get a train ride on top of it. Of course this has some cons as well. Once I am in Springfield, the only option is to sit there without being able to drive over to Palmer or CSX's West Springfield Yard...but it is better than not going at all. 2) CARPOOL. Even though I don't have many close friends who are railfans, I do have one. Him and I often go half and half on gas and we can visit more places that way. This is similar to what my father does. When he and his friends go fishing they all chip in to go. I hope these ideas are helpful. I would like to know what other problems face railfans out there...young or old. Chances are I have experienced them myself.
Being a railfan is not easy these days, even with trains all around me. As a resident in central Connecticut, there is Amtrak's Springfield Line directly to my east, Metro-North's Waterbury Branch and Housatonic Railroad to my west, The Northeast Corridor to my south and CSX's Boston Line to my North. All wonderful places to visit, not to mention tourist railroads such as the Essex Steam Train and the Naugatuck Railroad. Despite my close proximity to railroads, getting there is not easy. As gas prices climb above $3 a gallon, filling up my SUV is not easy. I drive to school everyday (the charter school I attend does not provide transportation) and there is barely enough gas in my tank left to spare for railfanning. Somehow though I always manage to make it out by saving money. So it made me think. Do other teenagers have the same problems as I do? Neither of my parents are into the hobby, so I don't have the advantage of a parent who goes to see the trains themselves. Plus, gas prices are not the only problem. Getting there is only half the fun! Once I get to a particular location, with exception to the tourist railroads, I have to deal with police and railroad officials...some of whom are far less than friendly. Some people, even some people who work for a railroad themselves, cannot understand what being a railfan is all about. What are the options for young railfans nowadays? I have a few ideas. 1) TAKE THE TRAIN. When I visit CSX on the Boston Line, I will often leave my truck and take an Amtrak train up to Springfield. This saves gas and I get a train ride on top of it. Of course this has some cons as well. Once I am in Springfield, the only option is to sit there without being able to drive over to Palmer or CSX's West Springfield Yard...but it is better than not going at all. 2) CARPOOL. Even though I don't have many close friends who are railfans, I do have one. Him and I often go half and half on gas and we can visit more places that way. This is similar to what my father does. When he and his friends go fishing they all chip in to go. I hope these ideas are helpful. I would like to know what other problems face railfans out there...young or old. Chances are I have experienced them myself.
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
you have your OWN SUV?
I didnt have my own car until after college, and I could afford to buy one.
somehow, I dont think you are that badly off! ;)
Scot
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