Train museums....FRIEND or FOE

[edblysard]

Dan's right,
Me is a breath of fresh air in a closed room.
No attack on the person intended, just the concept that I should condem a business or meuseum based on heresay, instead of facts.
The question asked cant be answered with out specific details, to give a blanket condemnation of any meuseum based on what was offered is, in my opinion, wrong.
If anything I wrote was taken by old dad as a personal attack then I apologize.
Its the concept, not the person I have a problem with.
Without knowing the circumstances surrounding the question, cant form a opinion based on what was offered.
Stay frosty,
Hey ME, nice to hear from you again!
Ed.

[ironhorseman]

Am I detecting a bit of Indiana Jones syndrome here? "Archeologist" goes "hunting" for "artifacts" at any cost just to get paid for "donating" it to his "collegue's" museum.

With all due respect, I can't read every word of every post (staring at this computer screen is getting hard on my eyes) but, getting off the personal attacks issue, may I ask, OLD DAD, if you had specific items in mind or are you talking about all railroad items in general?

What about a RR Xing sign or a spike? How about an old depot telephone? waiting benches? stationary? cigarette lighters? time tables? paintings? ticket punchers? etc...

I would think that signs, spikes, cross tie plates, signal lights, or anything else that's found track side is junk. What museum would want more and more crossing signs or spikes? I would question those restaurants filled to the hilt with junk and RR signs. I'll bet some of those signs are some that keep getting stolen out in the country a mile from my home. Again, like I said earlier, I'd be more concerned with someone trying to sell stolen items rather than give them away. After all, giving it away defeats the whole purpose of stealing it.

Instead of the trivial items, what kinds of expensive, prestigeous items/artifacts could have been ill-gotten and end up in a museum? I could probably look through my books and magazines to get some ideas but what, specifically, did you have in mind?

Also, some items may be considered abandoned anyway. If you want to get very technical on the issue go look in a criminal procedure text book under abandoned property.

If a museum is charged with housing stolen items they could, if they're so inclined, get the right shifty, shady, shiesty lawyer to twist the law and fool a jury into believing the property in question was abandoned and therefore the museum can rightfully posses it. Of course, that would be one expensive lawyer and it would be doubtful the museum would go that route.

One more question for clarity: is this question, "friend or foe," an ultimatum? Is it meant to determine all museums are one or the other? I think that the whole issue shouldn't be limited to just train museums. IF train museums are getting their displays by illegal means just think what every museum of every kind everywhere is doing. I would think that museums, the most of them, are friend because they are giving a safe haven to our historical relics so that the public may view and learn from them.

PUBLIC museums are the friends. I don't think they'd risk their reputation on it. Only very very very few would be the foe but that's to be expected because of odds.

PRIVATE museums, on the other hand, what are they hiding? This is not to slam every private museum, but the odds are greater that a private collection could have some illegal items in it. Call it bragging rights to the rest of the private sector. Public museums are targets all the time for the objects they have. All the time public museums have items stolen from them and where do they most likely end up? Sold to private collectors.

[Anonymous]

Thats "Don't do dumb sugar" if any kids were watching

[:D]

You know my girlfriend is right, and every time I say that i hope to never have to say it again. But it seems to be getting more frequant. I'm not sure what she said, as I can't see it while i'm writing a respoincse, but i assure you, if anyhting bad was said aginst myself, it's untrue.

Ed don't encourage my girlfriend to show up here [;)] , next thing you know she'll post on every topic, and Jen will ahve some competition.. We don't want that [:D]

Actually maybe we do... [:D] [:D] [:D]

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Thats "Don't do dumb sugar" if any kids were watching

[:D]

You know my girlfriend is right, and every time I say that i hope to never have to say it again. But it seems to be getting more frequant. I'm not sure what she said, as I can't see it while i'm writing a respoincse, but i assure you, if anyhting bad was said aginst myself, it's untrue.

Ed don't encourage my girlfriend to show up here [;)] , next thing you know she'll post on every topic, and Jen will ahve some competition.. We don't want that [:D]

Actually maybe we do... [:D] [:D] [:D]

Kev
ME will always be welcomed here [:)] Matt has also learned (with other things) to open a door for a lady.Chivalry is certainly not dead[;)]
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

I am taking EDs advise and will stop at a dermatologists office on my way home from work to have another layer of skin grafted on, evidently I could use another layer. ( my feeble attempt at being funny)

Latter.......OLD DAD

[edblysard]

Old Dad,
Just stay here, it will happen all by itself!
Anything you throw out here will be picked to pieces, looked at six ways to sunday, then folded, bent, spindled and mulitated before answered.

Your original question needed a qualifier, in that if a meuseum knowingly
accepted something stolen.
If yes, then they should be prosecuted, if for no other reason than to stop the thief from doing more damage, and to allow the property to be returned to its owner.
Most meuseum, railroad and other types, buy and sell items amoung themselves, and have a fairly extensive network of information on most of the items, and those that donate them.
Anything from outside that network is checked over very throughly, before they accept it

Again, if you belive a crime was committed, then contact your local DAs office.
They have the resources to find out.
Now the flip side, if they decline to check into it, then you reached a dead end, and the only thing left for you to do is follow Dans advice, and protest publicly.
But that route requires you to be prepared to be arrested, or sued if you cant "prove" your case, or generate enough publicity to force the DA to change their mind.

As for thick skinned, just become a locomotive enginner, thay all have bullet proof fanny calouses.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

I was going to something like that last night before the evil misses harmon tossed me off the computer to hunt ...I mean shop, online. Her hunting season after all open on Black Friday.

I would have to say that MlaM and ME are complimentary not competitors....Mook is like the Queen Mum of the forum and ME like the crown princess

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

"Blast away " - bad choice of words for someone in a red jeep with reindeer horns on it driving around Houston!

Moozie

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

I was going to something like that last night before the evil misses harmon tossed me off the computer to hunt ...I mean shop, online. Her hunting season after all open on Black Friday.

I would have to say that MlaM and ME are complimentary not competitors....Mook is like the Queen Mum of the forum and ME like the crown princess

The Queen Mum graciously accepts the honor and offers a place on the forum to ME and Nora and any other ladies that are willing to scrap with da guys! [:o)]

Mook

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Old Dad,
Just stay here, it will happen all by itself!
Anything you throw out here will be picked to pieces, looked at six ways to sunday, then folded, bent, spindled and mulitated before answered.

Your original question needed a qualifier, in that if a meuseum knowingly
accepted something stolen.
If yes, then they should be prosecuted, if for no other reason than to stop the thief from doing more damage, and to allow the property to be returned to its owner.
Most meuseum, railroad and other types, buy and sell items amoung themselves, and have a fairly extensive network of information on most of the items, and those that donate them.
Anything from outside that network is checked over very throughly, before they accept it

Again, if you belive a crime was committed, then contact your local DAs office.
They have the resources to find out.
Now the flip side, if they decline to check into it, then you reached a dead end, and the only thing left for you to do is follow Dans advice, and protest publicly.
But that route requires you to be prepared to be arrested, or sued if you cant "prove" your case, or generate enough publicity to force the DA to change their mind.

As for thick skinned, just become a locomotive enginner, thay all have bullet proof fanny calouses.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

Hi Ed, ME, Kevin, Jo, ETC. ETC. ETC.
Well, I had another layer of skin grafted on today.....guess what the anti-rejection drug is....HUMBLE PIE.....Yuck!

I do have trouble backing down from a good fight, I'll try to do better. SORRY if I stepped on any ones toes, I do get carried away sometimes. CAN WE BE FRIENDS NOW?

I posted my first thread, about stealing from a R.R., because of a conversation with a "railfan" who felt that taking things from a R.R. wasn't stealing, it was preserving artifacts for future generations.

My second thread about trespassing just seemed to be a logical next question.

Since I had personal knowledge of a "questionable situation" at a R.R. museum I naively thought this would be a benign subject to bring to this forum.......WRONG!......it turned out to be anything but benign.
I had originally intended this topic to be a hypothetical question but one thing lead to another.

I've answered most of your questions Ed but they are buried deep within this pile of responses we call a thread.
To save time I'll try to answer them again, all in one place.
The items taken (notice, I didn't say stolen) "were misaporopriated" FROM a fellow railfan (yes it was myself) by ANOTHER railfan. After repeated attempts to regain my property or receive some sort of payment for the items failed, I gave up.
About two years latter I was back in that part of the country and stopped in at the local R.R. museum. It was then that I noticed two items on a restored piece of equipment that looked very familiar. When I asked where they came from I was told that Mr. So and So donated them to the museum. Not only did this person take credit for the donation, he also told MY account of how the items were gotten and claimed that story as his own.

I tried to set the record straight but no one wanted to hear what I had to say. I was shunned for the remainder of my visit, and continue to be shunned if I return to this museum. I have since learned that NO investigation was ever conducted regarding my claims.

Thus my topic question, just looking for a consensus of opinions, nothing sinister intended.

I probably could have worded my topic in a more clear way, I can see that now.

WOW.....its 2:00 am.......Good Night.....OLD DAD

[edblysard]

Well,
I took the advice of a somewhat smarter source, ME's Boyfriend, Mr Mac Attack, and reread my replies as if I was on the other side of this.
I have a bad habit of writing in the same manner as I speak, so, with out the face to face contact, what I write can often not convey fully my meaning.
I do see where you could have taken offense to some of my replies, so again, I apologize.

I will assume you have no paper trail to tie the artifacts back to you, so the person who acquired them from you had free rein to invent what ever story he or she wanted to in regards to their having accquired said items.
Which leaves you SOL.
Based on the information you provided, I can see where the police and the DA's office would decline to follow up on any complaint, as you stated, you have no proof these items were your's in the first place.
So your next course of action depends on how much trouble your willing to stir up, and get into.
If the item were of small dollar value, then I would just chalk it up to having made a bad choice in people to associate with.
On the other side, if the items were of great historical or monetary value, then you could engage in some type of civil disobeidence, protest in some manner.

But you can bet on this, if I was in your position, that the meuesum in question would never see another dime of my money in the form of donations or addimission fees, and never see another item or artifact donated to them by me.

Sorry you had found yourself in this situation, it must chap you pretty bad to find you have no recourse other than to complain.
And the not being able to do anything more than that makes the loss even worse.
Take care,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Holy Moely.. I didn't think my advice was that good!

... Usually my advise and cooments are as good as recieving advice from a dead fish.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Holy Moely.. I didn't think my advice was that good!

... Usually my advise and cooments are as good as recieving advice from a dead fish.

Not exactly Kev.....at least you can use dead fish as bait to get more fish[:D]

[Anonymous]

OLD DAD, Man that stinks, the way you've been treated. Some museums are just like that though. Here and there I've even felt shunned by a museum staff member because we both would have equil knoledge on a certain topic, and I would not doubt a museum would take the first person's word as final (Ive also seen that too).

[dharmon]

Old Dad,

Now it all makes some sense. Not sure how to go about a resolution without gettting all involved dirty. Museums live and die on reputation and donations.....the price of personal satisfaction may cause a musuem to lose it's ability to preserve history.......

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Old Dad,

Now it all makes some sense. Not sure how to go about a resolution without gettting all involved dirty. Museums live and die on reputation and donations.....the price of personal satisfaction may cause a musuem to lose it's ability to preserve history.......

Not to worry, I'm not looking for personal satisfaction or revenge.
As I stated..... "in the begining I had intended this thread to be nothing more than a hypothetical question".
OLD DAD[:p]