Train museums....FRIEND or FOE

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Old Dad,

Now it all makes some sense. Not sure how to go about a resolution without gettting all involved dirty. Museums live and die on reputation and donations.....the price of personal satisfaction may cause a musuem to lose it's ability to preserve history.......

Not to worry, I'm not looking for personal satisfaction or revenge.
As I stated..... "in the begining I had intended this thread to be nothing more than a hypothetical question".
OLD DAD[:p]

[dharmon]

Old Dad,

Now it all makes some sense. Not sure how to go about a resolution without gettting all involved dirty. Museums live and die on reputation and donations.....the price of personal satisfaction may cause a musuem to lose it's ability to preserve history.......

[Anonymous]

OLD DAD, Man that stinks, the way you've been treated. Some museums are just like that though. Here and there I've even felt shunned by a museum staff member because we both would have equil knoledge on a certain topic, and I would not doubt a museum would take the first person's word as final (Ive also seen that too).

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Holy Moely.. I didn't think my advice was that good!

... Usually my advise and cooments are as good as recieving advice from a dead fish.

Not exactly Kev.....at least you can use dead fish as bait to get more fish[:D]

[Anonymous]

Holy Moely.. I didn't think my advice was that good!

... Usually my advise and cooments are as good as recieving advice from a dead fish.

[edblysard]

Well,
I took the advice of a somewhat smarter source, ME's Boyfriend, Mr Mac Attack, and reread my replies as if I was on the other side of this.
I have a bad habit of writing in the same manner as I speak, so, with out the face to face contact, what I write can often not convey fully my meaning.
I do see where you could have taken offense to some of my replies, so again, I apologize.

I will assume you have no paper trail to tie the artifacts back to you, so the person who acquired them from you had free rein to invent what ever story he or she wanted to in regards to their having accquired said items.
Which leaves you SOL.
Based on the information you provided, I can see where the police and the DA's office would decline to follow up on any complaint, as you stated, you have no proof these items were your's in the first place.
So your next course of action depends on how much trouble your willing to stir up, and get into.
If the item were of small dollar value, then I would just chalk it up to having made a bad choice in people to associate with.
On the other side, if the items were of great historical or monetary value, then you could engage in some type of civil disobeidence, protest in some manner.

But you can bet on this, if I was in your position, that the meuesum in question would never see another dime of my money in the form of donations or addimission fees, and never see another item or artifact donated to them by me.

Sorry you had found yourself in this situation, it must chap you pretty bad to find you have no recourse other than to complain.
And the not being able to do anything more than that makes the loss even worse.
Take care,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Old Dad,
Just stay here, it will happen all by itself!
Anything you throw out here will be picked to pieces, looked at six ways to sunday, then folded, bent, spindled and mulitated before answered.

Your original question needed a qualifier, in that if a meuseum knowingly
accepted something stolen.
If yes, then they should be prosecuted, if for no other reason than to stop the thief from doing more damage, and to allow the property to be returned to its owner.
Most meuseum, railroad and other types, buy and sell items amoung themselves, and have a fairly extensive network of information on most of the items, and those that donate them.
Anything from outside that network is checked over very throughly, before they accept it

Again, if you belive a crime was committed, then contact your local DAs office.
They have the resources to find out.
Now the flip side, if they decline to check into it, then you reached a dead end, and the only thing left for you to do is follow Dans advice, and protest publicly.
But that route requires you to be prepared to be arrested, or sued if you cant "prove" your case, or generate enough publicity to force the DA to change their mind.

As for thick skinned, just become a locomotive enginner, thay all have bullet proof fanny calouses.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

Hi Ed, ME, Kevin, Jo, ETC. ETC. ETC.
Well, I had another layer of skin grafted on today.....guess what the anti-rejection drug is....HUMBLE PIE.....Yuck!

I do have trouble backing down from a good fight, I'll try to do better. SORRY if I stepped on any ones toes, I do get carried away sometimes. CAN WE BE FRIENDS NOW?

I posted my first thread, about stealing from a R.R., because of a conversation with a "railfan" who felt that taking things from a R.R. wasn't stealing, it was preserving artifacts for future generations.

My second thread about trespassing just seemed to be a logical next question.

Since I had personal knowledge of a "questionable situation" at a R.R. museum I naively thought this would be a benign subject to bring to this forum.......WRONG!......it turned out to be anything but benign.
I had originally intended this topic to be a hypothetical question but one thing lead to another.

I've answered most of your questions Ed but they are buried deep within this pile of responses we call a thread.
To save time I'll try to answer them again, all in one place.
The items taken (notice, I didn't say stolen) "were misaporopriated" FROM a fellow railfan (yes it was myself) by ANOTHER railfan. After repeated attempts to regain my property or receive some sort of payment for the items failed, I gave up.
About two years latter I was back in that part of the country and stopped in at the local R.R. museum. It was then that I noticed two items on a restored piece of equipment that looked very familiar. When I asked where they came from I was told that Mr. So and So donated them to the museum. Not only did this person take credit for the donation, he also told MY account of how the items were gotten and claimed that story as his own.

I tried to set the record straight but no one wanted to hear what I had to say. I was shunned for the remainder of my visit, and continue to be shunned if I return to this museum. I have since learned that NO investigation was ever conducted regarding my claims.

Thus my topic question, just looking for a consensus of opinions, nothing sinister intended.

I probably could have worded my topic in a more clear way, I can see that now.

WOW.....its 2:00 am.......Good Night.....OLD DAD

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

I was going to something like that last night before the evil misses harmon tossed me off the computer to hunt ...I mean shop, online. Her hunting season after all open on Black Friday.

I would have to say that MlaM and ME are complimentary not competitors....Mook is like the Queen Mum of the forum and ME like the crown princess

The Queen Mum graciously accepts the honor and offers a place on the forum to ME and Nora and any other ladies that are willing to scrap with da guys! [:o)]

Mook

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

"Blast away " - bad choice of words for someone in a red jeep with reindeer horns on it driving around Houston!

Moozie

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

I was going to something like that last night before the evil misses harmon tossed me off the computer to hunt ...I mean shop, online. Her hunting season after all open on Black Friday.

I would have to say that MlaM and ME are complimentary not competitors....Mook is like the Queen Mum of the forum and ME like the crown princess

[edblysard]

Ohhh, Kevin,
Is that sexisim rearing its ugly head?
Or are you afraid we will figure out which one of you is smarter?
We already know ME is more pretty, and smells better!
And Jen wont mind Me posting here, remember, women dont compete, they conspire!
HA HA HA,
Now that I have throughly POed everybody, I am going to drive the jeep around Christmas shopping.
Ok, blast away...
Ed[:D]

[edblysard]

Old Dad,
Just stay here, it will happen all by itself!
Anything you throw out here will be picked to pieces, looked at six ways to sunday, then folded, bent, spindled and mulitated before answered.

Your original question needed a qualifier, in that if a meuseum knowingly
accepted something stolen.
If yes, then they should be prosecuted, if for no other reason than to stop the thief from doing more damage, and to allow the property to be returned to its owner.
Most meuseum, railroad and other types, buy and sell items amoung themselves, and have a fairly extensive network of information on most of the items, and those that donate them.
Anything from outside that network is checked over very throughly, before they accept it

Again, if you belive a crime was committed, then contact your local DAs office.
They have the resources to find out.
Now the flip side, if they decline to check into it, then you reached a dead end, and the only thing left for you to do is follow Dans advice, and protest publicly.
But that route requires you to be prepared to be arrested, or sued if you cant "prove" your case, or generate enough publicity to force the DA to change their mind.

As for thick skinned, just become a locomotive enginner, thay all have bullet proof fanny calouses.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I am taking EDs advise and will stop at a dermatologists office on my way home from work to have another layer of skin grafted on, evidently I could use another layer. ( my feeble attempt at being funny)

Latter.......OLD DAD

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

Thats "Don't do dumb sugar" if any kids were watching

[:D]

You know my girlfriend is right, and every time I say that i hope to never have to say it again. But it seems to be getting more frequant. I'm not sure what she said, as I can't see it while i'm writing a respoincse, but i assure you, if anyhting bad was said aginst myself, it's untrue.

Ed don't encourage my girlfriend to show up here [;)] , next thing you know she'll post on every topic, and Jen will ahve some competition.. We don't want that [:D]

Actually maybe we do... [:D] [:D] [:D]

Kev
ME will always be welcomed here [:)] Matt has also learned (with other things) to open a door for a lady.Chivalry is certainly not dead[;)]
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

Thats "Don't do dumb sugar" if any kids were watching

[:D]

You know my girlfriend is right, and every time I say that i hope to never have to say it again. But it seems to be getting more frequant. I'm not sure what she said, as I can't see it while i'm writing a respoincse, but i assure you, if anyhting bad was said aginst myself, it's untrue.

Ed don't encourage my girlfriend to show up here [;)] , next thing you know she'll post on every topic, and Jen will ahve some competition.. We don't want that [:D]

Actually maybe we do... [:D] [:D] [:D]

[ironhorseman]

Am I detecting a bit of Indiana Jones syndrome here? "Archeologist" goes "hunting" for "artifacts" at any cost just to get paid for "donating" it to his "collegue's" museum.

With all due respect, I can't read every word of every post (staring at this computer screen is getting hard on my eyes) but, getting off the personal attacks issue, may I ask, OLD DAD, if you had specific items in mind or are you talking about all railroad items in general?

What about a RR Xing sign or a spike? How about an old depot telephone? waiting benches? stationary? cigarette lighters? time tables? paintings? ticket punchers? etc...

I would think that signs, spikes, cross tie plates, signal lights, or anything else that's found track side is junk. What museum would want more and more crossing signs or spikes? I would question those restaurants filled to the hilt with junk and RR signs. I'll bet some of those signs are some that keep getting stolen out in the country a mile from my home. Again, like I said earlier, I'd be more concerned with someone trying to sell stolen items rather than give them away. After all, giving it away defeats the whole purpose of stealing it.

Instead of the trivial items, what kinds of expensive, prestigeous items/artifacts could have been ill-gotten and end up in a museum? I could probably look through my books and magazines to get some ideas but what, specifically, did you have in mind?

Also, some items may be considered abandoned anyway. If you want to get very technical on the issue go look in a criminal procedure text book under abandoned property.

If a museum is charged with housing stolen items they could, if they're so inclined, get the right shifty, shady, shiesty lawyer to twist the law and fool a jury into believing the property in question was abandoned and therefore the museum can rightfully posses it. Of course, that would be one expensive lawyer and it would be doubtful the museum would go that route.

One more question for clarity: is this question, "friend or foe," an ultimatum? Is it meant to determine all museums are one or the other? I think that the whole issue shouldn't be limited to just train museums. IF train museums are getting their displays by illegal means just think what every museum of every kind everywhere is doing. I would think that museums, the most of them, are friend because they are giving a safe haven to our historical relics so that the public may view and learn from them.

PUBLIC museums are the friends. I don't think they'd risk their reputation on it. Only very very very few would be the foe but that's to be expected because of odds.

PRIVATE museums, on the other hand, what are they hiding? This is not to slam every private museum, but the odds are greater that a private collection could have some illegal items in it. Call it bragging rights to the rest of the private sector. Public museums are targets all the time for the objects they have. All the time public museums have items stolen from them and where do they most likely end up? Sold to private collectors.

[edblysard]

Dan's right,
Me is a breath of fresh air in a closed room.
No attack on the person intended, just the concept that I should condem a business or meuseum based on heresay, instead of facts.
The question asked cant be answered with out specific details, to give a blanket condemnation of any meuseum based on what was offered is, in my opinion, wrong.
If anything I wrote was taken by old dad as a personal attack then I apologize.
Its the concept, not the person I have a problem with.
Without knowing the circumstances surrounding the question, cant form a opinion based on what was offered.
Stay frosty,
Hey ME, nice to hear from you again!
Ed.

[dharmon]

As Ed said, we have differences of opinion. Not attacking you as a person. But more importantly, above all else we got to see ME again. So good on you Old Dad!![:)]

[Anonymous]

Well Kevin for some odd reason has persuaded me to read this, and he also wanted me to give my opinion. No my opinion is not bias towards his, I most often don't agree with things that he says at all, but lets have a go at this one.

First off, Yes i agree with his views on censorship, I've come to learn that it's all about who raised you and what kind of parents you had, is what is going to persuade (not determined ) your censorship views. Kevin And I, more I.. have very liberal parents. Mine more so then his. That is the way we were raised, and thats how my parents brought us up

Jenna Jameison had Not so liberal parents, and look at the way she turned up... Althoguht she might be puching the boundry for me jsut a little, and kevin utterly detests her, just because she does the kind of work she does, Kevin hates her, which is not necesarily right either.

Back to the topic, Old dad, I don't believe that you have come under nay personal attacks. There are only two memebrs on theis forum that I have seen peronally attack each other: Kevin.. and the other guy who shall rename nameless, his screen name begins with a C, and rhymes with Shnabmorward. Those are the only two people who attack each other, and Yes, every time Kevin gets into an argument, I get furious at him because that is no way to treat other human beings, although if Shnabmorward is reading this, He is the older one of the two, and you would of thought he would of had the capability to withdraw. I'll say this right now, Kevin can't withdraw from an argument to save his life.. He'd argue until one of the parties dies. So usually it's up to the older people of the situation to withdraw.

A personal attack is more like Grade school name calling. Kevins good at that. Don't be like him, You don't want to be like him.

Joe, you have not perosnally attacked anyone. And i can't imagine you ever doing so.

I agree with Ed, You have to have thick skin.. Kevin takes personal attacks every day from ididots, he barely cares anymore. If he were to punch out every guy who called him a name.. he's have a life sentance behind bars.

As kevin always says, and i'll put it up here So you can all know kevin's favorite Quote

"Don't do dumb s***"

he always said that jokingly, but its always funny.

Now to the origins of your post. I believe in all honesty that Old Dad Just wanted an opinion. I really do. What I really think is happening, is that the last time Someone posted stuff like this, That person was under a name that rhymed with McFlurry or Shmizzori. The fact is, I have a feeling that this topic Reminds some of the people at trains.com, what it used to be like with shmizzori.And Their Treating OLD DAD like another shmizzori. Let's face the facts, he used to post stuff like this all the time! However OLD DAD is no Shmizzori. I Believe old dad just wants an honest opinion with no personal attacks. He has yet to prove me wrong, and when he does, you can all say, "we told you so" to me.

Just tell him your or nay and be done with it, don't let this thread keep you awake at night. and when i say "you" i mean everyone thats got their tale featheres ruffeled.

By the way OLD DAD, this is Kevin's Girlfriend that wrote this, in case your wondering why the funky coulored font.

[JoeKoh]

Old Dad
if you feel I have attacked you I apologize.I just would try to do what is right and the good doesnt always win you just have to keep fighting the fight.
stay safe
joe

[edblysard]

Then that brings us back to a simple question.
How would a railroad meuseum verify wether a artifact was legitimit, or not?

I have a old SP switch stand, the harp style.
I got it from our MOW dept, and am going to make it into a mailbox stand.
Now, if I decide to give it to a local rr meuseum, how can they prove it is or is not stolen, where it came from, and how I got it before I gave it to them?

I have no reciept, the foreman of the MOW dept gave it to me out of the scrap steel pile, and helped load it into my truck, no money changed hands, and no reciepts issued.

Should they refuse it because there is no paper trail?
Or should the take my word for it that it wasnt stolen?
After all, its only a old bent switch stand, worth about $6.00 in scrap value.

The foreman of MOW has since moved on to another railroad, and I have no way to get intouch with him.

So, how to proceed?

Now, if you want to tell the rest of us how, where, what, when and who your
were referring to, we would be more than happy to listen.

As for your orignal question, well, if they cant verify how the artifact came into the possession of the person donating it, then they either have to take that persons word, or refuse.

I would assume, (maybe incorrectly) that if the item was a rather rare, or very expensive item, they would do a good job of researching its origins.

And I do know most mueseums have a grapevine that works well, they keep each other aware of frauds, and stolen items, and the police do check with them regularly in reguards to stolen items.

If you mean I should bad mouth a mueseum because they "may" have items in their collection that were stolen, then no, wrong guy.

On the other hand, if you can prove it, and do so in a court of law, thats a different matter.
Here, the law presumes that you are innocent, and places the burden of proof on the accuser.
The accused dosnt have to prove their innocence, you the accuser have to prove their guilt.
So far, you havent.

And no, I dont belive I have attacked you, personally, I just dont agree with some of the things you have written, thats all.

If you take that personally, well, sorry, get a thicker skin.
Ed

[Anonymous]

In the begining I asked a very simple question...Basically I was asking your opinion about RR museums that accept donations of questionable origin.
How many have answered THAT question?

After the first 5 responses attacked me on a personal level I explained my reasons and motives quite clearly, I thought.

Yes, "perpetrator" is the wrong word since this person has never been convicted in a court of law. "Suspect" would of course be the proper term, I stand corrected.

I may be wrong but I don't belive that I have used the words "steal" or "stolen" on this thread.

I have taken personal attacks, I have explained my motives, I have tried to clarify my topic, I have apologized for misunderstandings on my part, I have explained my motives again and again and still I am under personal attack.

Other than trying to shut down this thread, I can't think of any other reason to attack me on a personal level, can you?

If some of you feel this constitutes a "personal vendetta" of some sort, you have a right to your personal opinion.

My conscience is clear.......OLD DAD

[dharmon]

Well, I can't speak for everyone,but last time I checked I was not part of an evil railfan conspiracy to shut down this thread. The only issue I have with any post is when, as has happened a couple of the times in the past, things degrade into caustic personal attacks. I don't believe that this is the case here. That being said.....

This forum has been used in the past, in particular by folks using states as screen names, as a vehicle to rant about or soapbox their pet causes. You have alluded that the focus has shifted from the subject you started to you yourself. Three topics... focusing on tresspassing, theft and disposition of stolen property. On the surface it looks as though you might be going somewhere with this and I think lot of folks are trying to figure out where. But then again it could be just curiousity...I don't know and I don't claim to, as Kevin so aptly put, being interested in razors doesn't make you a hijacker...or words to that effect.

Stealing is wrong, I don't think you will find anyone here that believes that it is. You may get some differences of opinion what constitutes the offense depending on severity (a rusted spike found on the side of the roadbed vs. switch stand cut off an active mainline switch). The reference to antiquities was meant to show that it is not an uncommon occurance, even in some of the finest institutions to have items that ..well.. were liberated from their former owners.

If your attempt to bring this to the attention of the museum did not work, then it needs to be taken to the authorites. But as Ed said, if either the DA or the RR does not think it is worth pursuing or there is not sufficient evidence, then it's pretty much over. Unless you feel that strongly about it, and engage in a little civil disobedience and start a boycott or something to bring light on it, bearing in mind of course the possible personal repercussions of such action.

The short of it is that in my opinion it's C, final answer

[edblysard]

Kevin,
I never said the this thread should be shut down, old dad brought that up, not me.
Was just making an observation as to why he seemd to blast anyone who didnt seem to agree 100% with his theft theory, and his trying his "case" in the forum.
If he is so concerned about theft, tresspassing, and illegal donations to railroad meuseums, maybe he should try a "Law and Order" forum?
Stay Frosty,
Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

Ed, I must say I disagree with you.

Old Dad pulled a Kevin Special.. He read the post in the wrong manor, and reacted in a fashion which I would have done myself, and have done so in the past.

I did it at Dan too! And to this Day, I remain greately sorry for doing so. No, I shouldn't have jumped on him like that.. Just like Old Dad openly admits he shouldn't have. Because of that incident with Dan and I, I now wait at least ONE HOUR to respond to controversial posts, so I have time to think baout it, and guage my respsonse more corectly, rather then base my response on rage, because that is just like pressing the accelerator and the break Equally, at the same time -- it'll get me no where.

Now Ed what you said may be correct, or not.,. why? Because i wouldn't know what a "DA" was if he bit me in the butt!

But i'm looking at the more Broad sense of this topic.
I'm glad it's in the open. I'm glad I REALLY AM. Everyone has a right to voice what they want to say, Now comming From A Canadian Society, honestly, and i'm not going to lie, It took me a while to adapt to the rules on this site.

However, this topic Does not deserve to be closed.

I formulated this example..

Each Thread is like a painting, It's a work of art that took time to develop. Now let's say this painting was posted inside a museum, and it depicted.. Uh something Really controversial. Imagine in your own mind soemhting Really controversial..

Does that mean someone has the right to walk in and take it down??

In Canadian Society, Were all taught that if we don't like what we see:

Walk faster
Change the channel
Overt your eyes

and attempt to forget, if you don't like it, what you've seen.

were also taught, Don't complain about what you see, because it's solely your choice that landed you there in the first place.

If i decide to watch Sex Tv, And then write a letter and complain about what I saw.. My complaint would have no Backing whatsoever. If i was really offended, That is why a remote is there.

If i decide to go to an art gallery (God, no) and see some crazy crap, and decide to complain.. My complaint wouldn't stand a chance in hell.

Thats the Canadian way we looma t things, Now trust me, I know it's different in the staes, why..? They don't have Sex Tv.. And i'm not necesarily saying it's a good channel for five year olds to watch. and i'm not necesarily saying that I like that channel.

Waht i am saying is that, I don't have a right to go to the Sex Tv studio and blow up their things which they use to Broadcast an image so they would stop Broadcasting

I don't have the right to go to an art Gallery and destroy a Leud painting of some naked woman.

I don't have a right to offer the Statue of David a free.. yikes. lets not go there.

But your all syaing, that someone has a right to decide weather your threads are socially or unsocially unfit for public display?

I know if it were Trains.ca.. i could complain to the people who own .ca and tell them that someone was canning my freedom of speech by erasing my threads, and they would then come under the Gun. Because up here Freedom of speech is like the right to bear arms, everyone does it / has one.

[edblysard]

Old Dad,
I have followed your posting for a bit, and realized you seem to have a personal vendetta going.
Now, wether this is due to the person your angry at having gathered the artifact and donated it first, before you had the chance to, or because you feel a crime has truely been committed is debatable.
If you do belive a crime has been committed, then approach your local DA.
Trying the person and the "crime" here can only offer you personal satisfaction, not resolve the problem.

If your local DA declines to persue the matter, either the artifact in question has no real value to both the railroad it came from, and the public in general, or its accqusition was legal in the eyes of the DA.

You seem to be attempting to justify your anger at what you view as a crime, without offering any details of what was taken, where it was donated, and who committed this "crime", which speaks volumes towards you already knowing that no crime was committed.

I note that anyone who dosnt agree with your point of view, and accept your story on faith alone, is subject to your anger too.

Dan responded to you, in a manner that seemed to uphold your viewpoint, and you attacked him, his comments and reflections that almost every meuseum has questionable artifacts in their collections as un important.

You pointed out that you didnt mention that in your post, so why should Dan mention it, as if his comments were of no value, unless they back up your theft theory.

It would appear that the person your angry at gained some small amount of public reconition for their donation, and you feel that is wrong.

Dont confuse morally wrong with illegal.

Lieing to your neighbor isnt a crime.
Lieing under oath in a court is.

Just because something is "wrong" dosnt make it a crime, just as something that is "right" isnt allways legal.

I noted that you failed to mention names, so you are aware how close to slander you are skirting by referring to the person as a perpetrater, infering he commited a crime for which he, or she, was prosecuted and convicted.

Yes, almost every railroad meuseum in the country contains some artifacts or items stolen from the railroads.

Yes, some people do get away with it.

Yes, it is ok to point that out, and if you have proof, go to the cops.

If you dont have proof, your correct, its a "bummer", bad guys win one, morally outraged you lose one.

Deal with it.

But dont bite us(which I am sure you will do, as soon as you read this) just because we dont agree 100% with you on any given subject.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I had no idea Kevin was WAY up north. I could have just as easily said German, French or Kangaroo.

Your comments about other types of museums having items of questionable origin seemed to imply that it was OK for RR museums to do likewise.
This would be similar to a young person saying "all my friends are doing such and such, so why can't I do it too".

If this was not your intention why did you mention the misdeeds of other types of museums?

You are absolutely correct when you say we have but two choices.....we can be part of the SOLUTION or we can be part of the PROBLEM.
You hit the nail squarely on the head.....this has been my motivation for placing this thread on this forum in the first place.

Since I havn't any physical evidence to back up my claims and no other witnesses it would be my word against the perpetrators word.

A lawyer once told me that...."some people can tell a lie more convincingly than other people can tell the truth", so documentation wins cases and I don't have any, BUMMER.

"IF SO"
I placed these two words in capital letters on a separate line so they would stand out.

It was my hope that you would understand that "YOUR LOGIC" only applied IF the statement having to do with "two wrongs make a right" were true.

I am truly sorry that you had to bear witness to the atrocities in the Balkans and Sarajeve, and I don't mean to diminish your experience in these remote places.
However, I'm at a loss to understand what this has to do with museums etc.
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My original question seems to have gotten lost along the way. SOME responders are apparently more interested in bashing myself or my question, they must be trying to shut down this thread. I wonder... WHY?

OLD DAD

[dharmon]

Whoa Ho Ho Ho there Hoss!!! I think you misunderstood my posting. Lets go to the tapes.....

1. The eskimo thing was becasue our Canadian collegue has been on a sabbatical to the northern areas of his fine country. This was poking fun at him Hoss not you.

2. The point about antiquities is that there are alot of things in museums of questionable origin......not just RR museums.

3. My opinion is that it is pretty cut and dried. If you know of something, you have two choices, report it or don't. Whether it is a RR musuem or not. The decision to intervene is yours, mine or whomevers.

4. I'll see your comment about about my logic and raise you nearly seven months in the Balkans and a year of my life in the Gulf. I can talk a belly full about ancient hatred. How about a mist filled morning overlooking the Zetra stadium in Sarajevo and see headstones as far as the eye can see over ten acres of them...from just the preveious couple of years. Let's not go there.

5. This assuredly is NOT written in Eskimo ..

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by dharmon

well, Kevin did respond, it so quite possibly you were writing in eskimo[:D]

If questionable aquistion practices are the topic, then I'd venture to guess the half of the antiquities exhibits at most of the major European and American natural history could be challenged. Western explorers did a fair amount of looting in the 1700-1900s in the name of history and science. So is there a statute of limitations on that???

Was I referring to Kevin???

NO!

Looting in the name of anything at any time is of course WRONG.
SHAME on your western explorers. And SHAME on ANY museum that continues to HOARD artifacts that were NOT acquired legally and morally.

Most countries have laws regarding the exploration for and the removel of antiquities.
If an "explorer" breaks any one or several of these laws this person has then become (by common definition) a criminal.

Well, dharmon, would I be correct in assuming (based on your statements above) that you believe two WRONGS do make a RIGHT.

IF SO,

allow me to take YOUR LOGIC to the next level.......thousands of murders were committed in the 1700-1900s.
SO, are you saying that this fact justifies committing additional murders TODAY???

OLD DAD

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