Trains and Weather

[Willy2]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

Wabash-
You've explained it well, thanks-I was just a bit confused.

Back on the CNW we were not allowed to turn our headlights to anything but bright, no matter what the weather. It had been so much glare on the loco that we could not see the front deck of a SD40-2, much less signals. So we would slow down, and when anyone asked, we told them why and was not asked again. But 40 miles at 10mph in a blinding fog makes for a looooong trip. I would run with my sunglasses on, it would be so bright.

What I meant about running during a tornado warning was that I one knew of a location where at least the head-end could get some shelter, I'd be tempted to stay there. Tornados generally move fairly fast, so the immenent danger should not last more than 30 minutes. And if a tornado did strike the train, far less damage would occur if the train was stopped. Surely all the advantages for stopping must outweigh the risk of running and saving 30 minutes, but risking a major catastrophe.

Zardoz and Mudchicken: I agree with both of you on your views of what tornadoes do to trains. I did read somewhere that when something is not moving, it will probably not be damaged as much as if it is moving during a tornado. Doesn' t mean that it won't get damaged, it probably will, just not as bad. It would be, I would say an advantage to stop the train and wait it out like Zardoz said.

[wabash1]

Ive been thru 2 tornados and 2 hurricanes I know of the winds and as you say it can and will blow a box car over. never heard of a engine being blown over. In a direct hit im sure it would but i aint staying around to find out. we had a tornado go over the rails here last year and the engines was following it. they stoped because of the fact they didnt know the condition of the rails the tornado took out a hole community but skipped over the tracks. damage both sidesup to the tracks but skipped over the rails. In the last few hurricanes did you here of a yard on the east coast cleaning up haz-mat spill from tank cars being blown over ? I have never so until I am derailed by a tornado I keep on moving.

[Anonymous]

Well, I am very sure a category 3 or 4 tornado could pick up and empty box/ freight car as if it were a lego piece. I also have little doubt that a category 5 tornado would knock over a locomotive

But..hey.. it's not like A) category 5's come around every day, and B) I don't exactly live in torando alley!

[Puckdropper]

Hurricanes have Categories, tornados are rated based on the Fujita scale.
From: http://www.tornadoproject.com/fscale/fscale.htm

Rating Type Wind Speed Description
F0 Gale tornado 40-72 mph
F1 Moderate tornado 73-112 mph moving autos pushed off the roads
F2 Significant tornado 113-157 mph boxcars pushed over;
F3 Severe tornado 158-206 mph Roof and some walls torn off well constructed houses; trains overturned;
F4 Devastating tornado 207-260 mph Well-constructed houses leveled;
F5 Incredible tornado 261-318 mph automobile sized missiles fly through the air in excess of 100 meters
F6 Inconceivable tornado 319-379 mph Some meterologists debate if the OK City tornado was this (my comment)

It seems at F3 ratings, not even your locomotive is safe, wabash.

[Granny74]

Ed: I hardwired control cabinets, helped install traffic signal poles, built specific types of traffic heads, did lots of line spots for traffic signals and street lights, installed loop detectors, laid lots of conduit, pulled in lots of wire at intersections, etc. Talking about winds, I did a replacement on a traffic head arm-2 1/2" arm- which had a red, yellow, green signal on it, and was bent 90 degrees in the opposite direction and still functioning but the lighting was wrong for the direction it was facing.
Do rrs have signals that have "arms: over the tracks without support on the other side? I don't remember seeing any of them.
Bob from AZ where they are telling us we are going to have some really cold, frigid weather---it will be 39 on Sat. a.m. in Phoenix, and 63 during the day!!!LOL
We are at 3500 ft elevation, so it sometimes is a little colder here and occasionally snows in the winter.

[edblysard]

Hi Bob,
Usually the signals are on either straight up poles, or on signal bridges over the tracks.
I havent seen one mounted to a arm like a traffic signal, but that dosnt mean there isnt one, seems just about every railroad had its own way of mounting them, its own "style" of signal head, and what each aspect meant.

Helped a friend pull cables through conduit for an alarm system he was installing in a office building.
Never again!

My arms and back were sore for days afterwards.

So your the guy that had to go out after the storms and fix what mother nature, and idiot drivers broke!

Another one of those jobs where it makes no difference wether its raining, snowing, or blazing hot, when they call, you gotta go.

I would guess having the right signal facing the wrong side of the intersection would be a number one priority fix.

Now another question.
I understand that in some circumstances, like a downtown area where the streets are alternating one way streets, you would want the traffic signals on a timed system, to keep the flow of cars fluid and constant.
Now, I was watching the City Of Houston crews installing a new traffic signal near my home, on a older, but somewhat busy intersection that has one street a major inbound/outbound traffic flow in the mornings and evenings, but the cross street sees little traffic, just enough to justify a signal.

In the left turn laneof the cross street, the crew had cut through the road surface, and were installing what looked to me like a coil/can, with way more cable than what I would think was needed.
I am guessing here, but would that read if a car was over it?.
I am nosey enough to have taken the time to walk over, and I timed the lights on the major street, and they are timed.
Even if no traffic is present, they change from green to red every 55 seconds.
Now, if there is no cross traffic, the cross street lights cycle through quick, under 30 seconds, and the major street starts over on the 55 second cycle, green, then to red.
But the left turn signal dosnt function at all, unless there is a car there.
So, whats the coil/can with the huge amount of cable thing they buried?
Does it decide if the cross street lights work, or does it only control the left turn signal?
And if it "decides" for the left turn signal, why not have the same system for the entire cross street signal?
To me, it would make more sense to leave the major street open, or with a green signal, untill the cross street had traffic, then stop the major street.

Lastly, I noticed in one of your posting that you wife reads the forum to you,as you are having a little trouble with reading the fine print on these silly screens.
By chance, did you ever mention her name, or does she wi***o not be named here?
If she dosent, I understand completly, but I like to be able to refer to folks by their name, not as "the wife" or "your partner".

When people say "your wife" to me, I make sure they know her name is Aimee, and she is the other half of Ed & Aimee, sorta a matched set.

Aimee took off for a three day weekend to Padre Island with her girlfriends, and I ended up lost most of the time, couldnt find a darn thing I needed, I couldnt find half the stuff I needed to make dinner, gave up and just went out to eat the last two nights.
Funny how you end up counting on someone so much, and dont realize it till they leave you alone for a while!

And the cool air you guys are getting now is suppost to be here in Houston this sunday.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[zardoz]

puckdropper

fyi:

The NWS has yet to officially adopt the F6 rating for tornados. The "official" ratings system can be seen at the NOAA site

http://www.outlook.noaa.gov/tornadoes/fujita.htm

And I maintain that in the nose of a locomotive is the safest place to be in a tornado, except an underground storm shelter. Even if the loco was rolled by the wind (unlikely unless directly broadsided by an F5 wind) the structural integrity of the loco would not be seriously compromised.

[jchnhtfd]

Edblysard -- I'm sure you'll hear back from Bob on the pavement coils, but... I like to talk! The pavement coils are supposed to sense vehicles. Depending on configuration, they can even sense whether traffic is moving or stopped and how much traffic is backed up. They may feed into a local control box and alter the timing of the associated traffic light, or change it to green for a certain length of time to a little-used side road, or they may feed into a more centralised traffic control system intended to control a number of intersections (some of these can get darned fancy -- some of them even work). They cost money, so they aren't used as often as they might be (highway departments have often have very rigid and, often, somewhat unrealistic guidelines for installing such things -- not the fault of the guys in the field, but the Great Ones in the corner offices, as usual).

[wabash1]

I cant see what the big deal is. It is pretty simple if the tornado is in front of me that is where its going to stay and ill watch it from there now if the thing is behind me its 8 and sand im out of there.

[zardoz]

wabash-
I was only trying to help, lending my twenty years of experience and training being a certified severe storm spotter for the Weather Service. Sounds like you got it all figured out. Even though rule #1 is to not try to outrun a tornado when you're driving, I'm sure you'll do a much better job with thousands of tons behind you with no way to steer. Best of luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Well they teach this rule in our schools up here, and think we wouldn't know what a tornado looks if we sat on it and it farted..

Golden Rule.. Trying to out run a Tornado is like trying to out run a train.... You'll be dead at the crossing.

[dehusman]

You don't need a tornado to blow over a train. Tall empty cars might blow over with wind gusts in the 70 mph range. Its tough to blow over an engine though.

Dave H.

[Granny74]

Ed: I guess we got off the subject of weather, but Jamie( jchnhtfd) gave a good explanation of the pavement coils and signal functions. Central traffic control is expensive . It's difficult to satisfy the pedestrians and the drivers of the vehicles that want to go different ways. Each group wants to go when they want to go and not have to wait for the other. You know what I mean, I am sure. When we listen to the dispatchers on the rr, we can hear that they have their problems trying to "keep everyone happy" and moving when they want as well as deal with the priorities!
My wife's name is Nancy. She types all of my posts as I dictate to her and reads the forum posts to me. I have magular degeneration in the advanced stages and can only see outlines and sometimes not that. I have a camera that is attached to a large screen tv that magnifies reading material. It helped me a lot for quite some time, but now I am losing that capability. Note from Nancy: If Bob and I are out in a store and I leave him to pick up an item I want, when I come back, he cannot tell if it is me or not and even though I tell him it's me, he always asks if it is me.

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
Golden Rule.. Trying to out run a Tornado is like trying to out run a train.... You'll be dead at the crossing.

I like this! Both tornado safety and train safety in two sentences!

Zardoz, I realize F6 isn't official yet, but the logic behind it is there's a limit on the wind speeds of an F5. I'm just an enthousiest (sp?), so what I say about weather may not always be accurate. Seriously, if a tornado has wind speeds of 350 mph, who's gonna stop it because it goes off the scale?

[Anonymous]

I want to insert this here so everyone reading this thread might take a look at it and help out.


http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8806


Please follow the link to the other thread and read some of the posts. Thanks to everyone for helping out. [:)]

[wabash1]

most people dont know what to do in a tornado, but the truth be know why you dont out run one is that they have no set path. the way it is done if you see it beside you or in front of you why try and out run it . it will get you. stop and wait. if it is well behind you why wait go like heck. if you are heading torward it. well stop and hope it misses you.

[Willy2]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

You don't need a tornado to blow over a train. Tall empty cars might blow over with wind gusts in the 70 mph range. Its tough to blow over an engine though.

Dave H.

I have a Highball Productions video and in it they show an intermodal train that was blown off a bridge on the Marias Pass in a 70 mph windgust. The destruction was complete.

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Willy2

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

You don't need a tornado to blow over a train. Tall empty cars might blow over with wind gusts in the 70 mph range. Its tough to blow over an engine though.

Dave H.

I have a Highball Productions video and in it they show an intermodal train that was blown off a bridge on the Marias Pass in a 70 mph windgust. The destruction was complete.

Willy
I forgot to mention that it happens sometimes with trailers and containers on a bridge near port clinton ohio over sandusky bay.once nyc now ns.
stay safe
Joe

[edblysard]

Hi Bob and Nancy,
According to Aimee, I have been "off subject" for a long time anyway, so why sould today be any different.
I gave up trying to figure out why the city spends money on some roads that are little used, but have great signal systems, cobbled crosswalks, lush green medians and fantastic lawn care, but the streets almost everyone has to use looks like they had bulldozer races on it last night, half the signals are blinking red, or only one light works on the signal head, and thats the red one.

As for train dispatchers, the good ones earn every dime they make, they can make the railroad run smooth as silk, or rough as sandpaper.

You couldnt pay me enough to do what they do, way too much stress!

Sorry to hear about your eyesight, but glad you have a wife like Nancy!.
Those poor slobs not married have no idea what they are missing.
Having someone you can count on always is a great way to feel!

You two Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Willy2]

With the snowstorm moving into the Northeast will their be any rail problems? With up to 15 to 20 inches of snow expected and winds sustained near 40 mph I would have to guess that their will be.

Maybe the Amtrak Acelas will be affected. Strong winds and so much snow on the electrical wires could cause power outages. Hope that nothing too big happens!

[Anonymous]

To sask_tinplater. It seems nothing stops the Aussies. I once saw a photo in a newspaper showing a pub in Alice Springs that had been inundated with flood water. It didn't stop the Aussies, they were at the bar up to their waists in water still drinking.

[Anonymous]

As far as I heard, MARC Commuter line at least ran at about a 10 Min Delay during the snow today.