Trains and Weather

[Willy2]

How does weather effect trains? Does fog and rain slow them? What about snow? I there is a tornado warning for the county that a train is in, will the dispatcher warn the engineer and conductor? How does snow effect trains and even duststorms? You can see I want to know it all. I hope I'm not asking too much at once![:D] In basic, just how does weather effect trains? That's basically what I'm asking.

[Anonymous]

In general, your everyday weather will not effect train movement. I was running south one night and we went thruogh a snow storm so bad that the snow was piled up on the front of the engine we had to go out the back just to clean the front door out. I slowed the train down to 20 MPH just so i could see the mileposts and the whistleposts. We do have a system in place that we will be warned if a severe weather warning does come about.

[edblysard]

Willie2,
So long as the rail is above water, and we can see, somewhat, where we are going, we go!
About the only thing that would stop us is when the rail is 4 inches or more under water, or hail, snow or rain that prevents you from seeing far enought down the tracks to proceed safely.
And if you do have to stop, you better tell the dispatcher, and get his or her permission to do so. They will most likley let you limp into a sideing, but you never know!

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

You know that is an intresting Question. I personally have never seen submerged rails. I have been through the densest (sp?) fog, and I went about 10MPH less then the posted limit. (or I advised the engineer too) and we both had our nose pressed to the glass looking at the signals.. Odd enough, One of the signals (Double Restrictive) was Gren/red But the red wqs much brighter then the Green so we immediately put the breakes on and almost came to a hault before we could see the green one.

thats the worst i've ever been through
It's probobly not much compared to other people

OH yeah and another thing, one time we had about 15 inches of snow, and we just plowed right through it!
really didn't hinder us mush, we wereonly a minute and 30 secondes late at the end station.

[JoeKoh]

Willy
stopping to switch in a yard on a cold cold cold day can be very frustrating for a crew.if the cars have been in the yard for awhile it takes time to get the air up(brakes).
stay warm
stay safe
Joe

[Willy2]

The reason I asked this is because in Omaha tonight we have hail, downpours, lightning, and yes, even tornadoes! Whacky weather! This made me think, "What do trains do in this kind of weather?" Thanks for the answers!

[Puckdropper]

Sounds like you train guys have some explaining to do! This is a topic of interest to me...

It's a lot easier to move when the closest thing to a steering wheel you have is the switch rod!

Btw, red is naturally more bright than green. It seems darker, but that's just how it's percieved. I suppose I should say red is stronger than green.

[Anonymous]

When it gets too cold outside (like 10 below), isn't there a special restricted speed limit? If there is, what's the reason?
Thanks.[:)]

[Modelcar]

...History tells us that trains [Passenger], did run through the roughest of winter snows and cold, [and I remember they did], etc....but I'm now wondering if that is really not the case anymore. Example, recently the bad weather over Labor Day seemed to stop many of the trains on the east coast. Some simply canceled. I wonder if the railroads now operate with so much less support crews to handle emergencys that the powers to be simply can't keep the schedules and in some cases cancel scheduled trains. Does possible insurance claims possibly now enter into the equation.

[dehusman]

One thing the UP is subject to, more than some roads is high winds. All trains have "blow over" wind speed based on the car type and when the winds exceed that speed, they stop trains until the wind gusts subside.

Tornaodoes the train stops and the crew seeks shelter in the nose of the engine.

The two worst weather calamities are heavy rains and ice storms. Heavy rains means possible flash floods. Ice storms means downed trees, power lines and signal lines.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

As for speed restrictions in cold weather, rail gets brittle at cold temperatures. It also contracts. There are also restrictions in hot weather, sun kinks, where the welded rail expands and the force rips it right off the ties.

Most railroads use commercial power to run signal systems and whatnot. When the power goes out, so do the signals.

And, of course, the threat of lawsuits might stop more trains than anything.

[Anonymous]

I just remembered another one which is if its 10 degrees below zero or colder we are limited to a maximum of 75 car train length due to the fact of the amount of time it takes to charge the air on the train. kinda good to have when you need your brakes.

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JoeKoh

Willy
stopping to switch in a yard on a cold cold cold day can be very frustrating for a crew.if the cars have been in the yard for awhile it takes time to get the air up(brakes).
stay warm
stay safe
Joe

oh I forgot too if you get enough snow ice and cold if you have a bad switch heater a switch could be frozen open or shut Yikes![:0]
stay safe
Joe

[wabash1]

the only restriction in bad weather is the engineer. if i want to slow down i will mostly i run track speed. its been so foggy around here and the engine i was running didnt have a ditch light switch to turn it off i will run with out ditch lights it helps me see with out them. the only problem i have in foggy weather is cars running into the side of me. in snow i just apply the brakes early so to melt the ice build up on the shoes. in storms those engines go right thru trees. and i have never damaged a engine. the dispatcher will let you know about tornados and such but you keep rolling . this is a good way to see who knows the territory is if sight is limited a good engineer will keep his train at track speed with out doing anything differant than normal.

[zardoz]

wabash1-a few questions.

If you want to slow down, you will run at track speed? What speed do you normally run?

You turn out the ditch lights to see better? I thought the FRA mandated ditch loghts for any train that exceeded 10mph, and that crossed a road at grade?

You keep rolling during tornado warnings? Why?

Your definition of a "good engineer" sound a bit like a manager's description. Are you working you way up to management?

[mudchicken]

Omaha Willie2:

The operating guys have added pieces of your question to the equation, let another add a few more:

(1) The railroad rules say you can't run a locomotive on track with 4-6 inches of water above the track. The main reason for this is that the locomotive traction motors will suck water into the casing and ruin the windings for the electric traction motors over 4 inches above T/R (top of rail). The speed gets reduced to 5mph because you can't see the rail or track below AND any faster and the traction motor blowers will splash or suck water up into the traction motors and short them out (bad news, no go, kaput!)

(2) in extreme heat / cold, you have pull aparts and or sun kinks with the rails. At speed the forces on the rail are at their worst, therefore we back off on the speed for fear of setting off a rail defect.

(3) Joe Koh hinted already at what a beast it is to keep trainline air cold weather and what kickers do to your day. Somebody else can do the hydraulics/physics lesson.

(4) I have worked 3 derailments caused by train crews running too fast for conditions. (A) In blizzard conditions, a train passed a red signal caused by snow jamming switch points open (gap in the points) at 40 instead of at restricted speed - the power and the first 20 cars got scattered on the station grounds, (B) a train in fog went too fast in fog through a diverging route (thought they were going straight) and the result was similar to the Chicago METRA derailment of a few weeks ago and (C) in a driving rain storm, a train slid past a red signal on wet icy rail and went through a power derail protecting a crossing frog in yard limits.

(5) I have hi-railed main track during floods with water coming up above the running board/ bottom of truck door. You learn to repack bearings in the high rail gear and relubricate immediately afterwards. Railcar axles/journal assemblies get inspected if they have been submerged for the same reason. Highrail trucks on wet rail will just sit there spining-out on occassion on well-polished rail (Had to tow a stranded track inspector off the rail on more than one occasion with a a 4WD truck and a cable/rope/chain)

and (6) The article (op/ed) in Trains recently hit the nail on the head as to why railroads do NOT run regardless of conditions anymore. The vast supporting cast that made railroads self-sufficient in the past are no longer there. Track forces and mechanical forces have been dumbsized to the point that if if a train crew has a problem out on the road, you'd better hope they can fix it themselves. The local supporting cast is no longer available in weather emergencies. Railroads are now getting a little timid about being out there in all conditions for that reason.

Mudchicken

ps.....Puckdropper, we mudchickens do the steering out here! Train crews and dispatchers decide left or right, we've already done the rest! ....Wabash, I might be a little nervous around you. .....Oh Ye Great Frosty one - can you enlighten us on how it went last night after Houston's nasty encounters with Mother Nature last night?

[Anonymous]

Back in the late 40's out here on the Canadian Praries there were really bad snowstorms and one train got stuck in the snow so bad that they had to just leave it in there until spring. I remember seeing in a book of mine a picture of an Australian steam engine partly submerged in water and actually running. I remember it saying that that type of engine ran very good in floodwater.

[csxengineer98]

When your running in bad snow... and alot of snow blowing up as the train goes,.... i make a brake application from time to time to melt any snow and ice that has packed itself around the brakes.... that is even a rule in CSX train handleing rules. ...
in bad rain...unless their is a flash flood warning out ( a form W on CSX), we just keep on trucking at tracks speed. with a Form W,.we have to approch all bridges and colverts at restricted speed..... now amcrash on the other hand...with a Form W..they have to do restricted speed from the start of the Form W..to the end of the Form W limets....and the limets are posted in your Train Bullitens...
as far as strong winds...you just keep going..and hope thier isnt any trees down..becouse thier is no way to know, unless it takes out the signal system...and then its restricted speed from the first "bad" signal to the next signal that we get that is more favorable then restricting.... haveing done this on more then once...it makes for a long day or night... nothing worse then haveing to go looking out 1/2 the rang of vistion for mile after mile!!!
fog..welll that stuff just sucks......i just keep going track speed and if i see yellow.....i start to slow down NOW!! but even with the thickest fog i have ever seen around where im at...you still can mananage to see some land marks close to the track.... knowing your territory and land marks is a big help when your running "blind" lol
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

CSX engineer hits it right on the head. The only thing is here in good old CONRAIL country form W's are not for our use. We will just get an attachment with our dispatchers bulletin or a line 13 on our form D's. He has a very good point that you have to know your territory like the back of your hand or it's a good way to take a bite of a s**t sandwhich. Besides if you slow down because of bad weather its easier to stop for coffee and get away with it.

[Granny74]

Have we heard from Ed about any effect the Houston weather had on him?
Nance69

[edblysard]

Hi Nance,
Sorry I didnt respond sooner, still a little soggy.
Some places here in the Bayou City had 8 inches of rain in a few hours.
We somehow dodged the bullet, not a single washout on my railroad.
But, as a answer to Willy's question, it rained all day, real rain, not the light duty stuff.
Didnt make one witt of difference to us, we keep right switching.
About the only thing we did different was to slow down or stop when getting on or off equipment.
When your gloves get really soaked, they get slimey and slick, and the rungs and handholds get slick too, and it makes for a slip hazzard.
So we slow down.

Most of the city streets were flooded, till around 5 this morninng.
After all, we are only a few feet above sea level anyway.
Odd as this may sound, because the yard I work in is right across the street from the turning basin of the ship channel, it rarely floods, and if it does, the channel acts like a huge drainage ditch, water dosnt stay in the yard long.

But man, when it cleared out, it cleared out.
Today was fantastic, not a cloud in the sky, clean, clear air.
And around Houston, clean air is rare....

And Bob, thanks for asking about us down here.
Still Soggy,
Ed

[Granny74]

Ed: I worked street traffic signals for years and when it did rain here in Tucson---which isn't very often---but it can give us some flooding downpours---when I was wearing my raingear, I was wetter on the inside than on the outside. Do you have the same problem, especially with your high humidity?
We're glad that you and family are all ok.
Bob from AZ

[dharmon]

Ed now it starting to become clear again why I left Houston..[:)]........Try, I think they're called Seal Skinz gloves...great for working out in the elements...good for winter duck hunting and crawling on ice covered airplanes. Mine apparently worked so well they got up and walked away..;..[:(]

Zardoz...not sure about FRA rules on lights but aircraft routinely secure landing lights and strobes/beacons in low vis to aid vision. Cutting down self induced glare can be the difference in seeing the approach lights or not.

[Modelcar]

...Bob, I had a little experience with Az some years ago...Perhaps you would know the area. My Co. was doing testing in the mountains and heat for automotive products and we were at based at Kingman. And there of course I had a chance to watch the passenger trains of the Sante Fe go through and make a stop there each day. Worked in the area off and on for a year and a half. And on humidity...as you probably know, not much..I saw it as low as 5% on our instruments.

[wabash1]

zardoz

The statement should have been if I wanted to slow down i will if not i wont and wont anyone tell me differant. the ditch lights are mandated to be on at anytime the headlights are on. ( bright) but on NS engines we can turn them off and still at crossings they will fla***hen go off. the rule book says that in fog or snow if they cause glare that we can turn them off. you ask about tornado warnings also well the question i have for you is why would i stop there is no place to go. and to hide is of no use i keep going it wont blow me over . so to answer all your questions its up to the engineer what he wants to do. my defination of a good engineer is go from point "A" to point "B" as fast as i am allowed and get off. ive road with other engineer that get hit from slack like crazy its their train they can do as they want i run smooth the speed limits are 50 and 60 mph and No i wouldnt be managment for no amount of money.

[edblysard]

Very true Bob,
I often wear just a slicker, no rain pants or hood because its so hot inside you & perspire so much you end up just as wet.
I keep my paperwork and radio in the inside pocket to keep them sorta dry.

My wife lived in Tombstone for awhile, she loved it.

You worked traffic signals, as in installed/ maintained and serviced them?

Was in your state for a day or two, cant imagine wearing a rainsuit in the day time.
Now nights were something else, we were camping in Chocise county, and the night sky was fantastic.
The stars looked so close, and everything was so clear, you really could tell they went on forever!.
You could read by the starlight.
Dont get nights like that down here to often.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by nance69

Ed: I worked street traffic signals for years and when it did rain here in Tucson---which isn't very often---but it can give us some flooding downpours---when I was wearing my raingear, I was wetter on the inside than on the outside. Do you have the same problem, especially with your high humidity?
We're glad that you and family are all ok.
Bob from AZ

[edblysard]

Hi Dan,
Dont know what the trade name is, but the guys in the chemicla plants around here give us some of the gloves they wear when working the tank farms and pipelines.
They are blue, rubber like, with a pebbled surface.
Actually, its more like a course sandpaper texture.
They work pretty good, but gloves, no matter what the trade name, dont live long out here.
All the chemicals, grease and dirt we grind into them wears the palms out.
Lineing switches, tieing handbraks, lifting cut leavers and opening knuckles does them in quick.
I used to buy the blue mules, but discovered that they dont last any longer than the ones the carrier provide, just simple leather ones with a reinforced plam.
And the ones the company provide are at the right price, free!
Hows the wrist?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Willy2]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1


you ask about tornado warnings also well the question i have for you is why would i stop there is no place to go. and to hide is of no use i keep going it wont blow me over . so to answer all your questions its up to the engineer what he wants to do.

You say that a tornado won't blow you over. I hate to say it but a tornado with winds of 112 can blow boxcars over. The winds of the 1999 tornado that hit Oklahoma City were 318 mph. That would surely blow a train over. I'm not trying to be snotty or mean, I'm just saying what I think on the matter.

[mudchicken]

Willy2:

Still have a derailment survey exhibit from 1993 at Waynoka, OK from a tornado that scattered the whole train with the exception of the engines. (It does happen!)

Mudchicken

[zardoz]

Wabash-
You've explained it well, thanks-I was just a bit confused.

Back on the CNW we were not allowed to turn our headlights to anything but bright, no matter what the weather. It had been so much glare on the loco that we could not see the front deck of a SD40-2, much less signals. So we would slow down, and when anyone asked, we told them why and was not asked again. But 40 miles at 10mph in a blinding fog makes for a looooong trip. I would run with my sunglasses on, it would be so bright.

What I meant about running during a tornado warning was that I one knew of a location where at least the head-end could get some shelter, I'd be tempted to stay there. Tornados generally move fairly fast, so the immenent danger should not last more than 30 minutes. And if a tornado did strike the train, far less damage would occur if the train was stopped. Surely all the advantages for stopping must outweigh the risk of running and saving 30 minutes, but risking a major catastrophe.