RACINE - While the possibility of a commuter rail connecting Kenosha and nearby communities with Milwaukee is still at least three years away, supporters of the program gave a hard push for it to a packed audience Wednesday evening in Racine.If it's done right, communities such as Kenosha, Somers and Racine will see improved property values, more jobs, higher wages and less overall out-of-pocket transportation costs, said Shelley Poticha, president of the national Reconnecting America and the Center for Transit-Oriented Development.But, she said, it won't come without a cost."If you are willing to pay a little more, you'll gain huge benefits and a huge payback," she said. Wednesday's event was sponsored by the SC Johnson Co. and Transit Now, and featured Poticha's statistics and slides from cities across America that have made a positive difference with a rail line. In many of those cities, commuter rail exceeded rider expectations years ahead of projection.While there is an initial cost with a possible tax increase, she said statistics show many community members who use the rail save 10 percent more of their household income.If all goes according to plan, the rail system would connect the Chicago Metra line that currently ends in Kenosha to Milwaukee, with stops in Somers, Racine, Caledonia, Oak Creek, South Milwaukee, Cudahy-St. Francis, Milwaukee south side and downtown Milwaukee. It will be 33 miles long with 14 daily round trips during the weekday and several weekend round trips, with fares similar to bus lines. Proponents say it also will give access to nearly 1 million existing jobs between Milwaukee and Chicago and add hundreds of thousands of other jobs."I'm all for it," said Dave Moresi, a Pleasant Prairie resident who attended the presentation. "Some people where I live might not like me saying this, but I'd like to see a station right at 91st Street so I could walk to it from my house. The problem right now is people are in love with their cars. That's America. This eliminates traffic. You just get on, and it's a slick ride downtown."While most of those in attendance were strong supporters of the rail system, one audience member accused Poticha of glossing over the actual tax costs and said it would drive people out of homes they would no longer be able to afford."It will cost a sliver and the benefits will be astronomical," someone else countered to rousing applause.Jesse Williams said he believes the benefits are there, but isn't sure the communities who want it will be able to reap the benefits Poticha spoke about."I lived in many parts of the country since I joined the military at 17," he said. "New York and Chicago are successful because their system was built up before people had automobiles. There is going to to be a lot of inertia to overcome. Kids are used to getting their license at 15½. In Atlanta, when they did this, it took them 20 years to overcome the problems."Poticha said communities building rail systems now can learn from Atlanta's mistakes."Atlanta didn't think through how to incorporate the rail with the city," she said. "The rail is not going to magically revitalize your community or magically create a new class of rider. You have to connect this to your community with walkable streets, pedestrian and bike paths that connect to the rail and bus systems. You have to have the right infrastructure."I'm on a religious crusade to tell community leaders it must be built around people with a consumer focus. In Seattle, they're a coffee town, so you can bring your coffee on, and there are hooks to hang up your dry cleaning. Universities give rail passes as part of tuition; companies give it as part of their benefits; there is wireless technology available. Time it so you can get off the rail, walk across the street and get right on a bus."Rosemary Potter from Transit Now said time was of the essence to get people on board with the program since communities will have to apply for initial federal funds by June. She said most of the costs will come from federal taxes and a majority of the rest of the money could be raised with a small sales tax. She encouraged those in attendance to write to elected officials as well as letters to the editor.One Kenosha resident, who declined to give his name, said it's only fair since so much of the federal taxes Wisconsin pays currently has helped fund commuter rail lines in other cities, plus it will help wean America off oil. When he was done speaking, the audience burst into applause again."We paid for these time and time again in other cities. Now it's time for those guys to pay for one for us," he said.
http://www.kenoshanews.com/articles/index.php?articleNum=596461
SOOOOooo, if people wanted to travel from Chicago (Evanston, Highland Park, Waukegan etc.) to Milwaukee via the old C&NW route, would they have to take a Metra-funded UP-North Line train north to Kenosha, then change to a similar commuter route run by the State of Wisconsin?
al-in-chgo
Here's the other kicker that I don't understand. Doesn't Amtrak already offer service to these areas through the Hiawatha trains? So if I am to understand the logic correctly, the taxpayers are to swallow another tax increase (notice how it was poo-pooed in the article) for additional trains in an area that already has taxpayer funded passenger rail. If the demand is there (and it isn't - I only read wild and unsubstantiated speculation about how this would spur economic development - in other words, if you build it they will come) then why not increase the use of Amtrak instead of serving cross-purposes? This corridor between Milwuakee and Chicago is one of the few that Amtrak has that actually generates a profit. Why not encourage the existing service (which taxpayers are already funding) instead of creating an entirely new service that will only undercut the existing passenger rail?
Not only that, the rationale that because Chicago and Atlanta have a intercity passenger rail service Milwaukee should have one too doesn't wash either. Chicago is a big city, so is Atlanta and Seattle. Milwaukee is not. In fact, Milwaukee is rather medium sized compared to most American cities. And the way things are going here we are just turning into a suburb of Chicago anyway.
solzrules wrote:Here's the other kicker that I don't understand. Doesn't Amtrak already offer service to these areas through the Hiawatha trains? So if I am to understand the logic correctly, the taxpayers are to swallow another tax increase (notice how it was poo-pooed in the article) for additional trains in an area that already has taxpayer funded passenger rail. If the demand is there (and it isn't - I only read wild and unsubstantiated speculation about how this would spur economic development - in other words, if you build it they will come) then why not increase the use of Amtrak instead of serving cross-purposes? This corridor between Milwuakee and Chicago is one of the few that Amtrak has that actually generates a profit. Why not encourage the existing service (which taxpayers are already funding) instead of creating an entirely new service that will only undercut the existing passenger rail?
The supposed logic behind all of this is that the old CNW line goes through the highest population density areas, instead of the relatively under-populated areas of Caledonia, Sturtevant, and Somers The track needs a lot of work ($$$) to bring it up to passenger speeds, the signal system is long gone, and it is only single track.
I've said it before: this is the silliest idea I have heard in a long time. As much as I would like to see trains running there again, it just does not make fiscal sense. There MIGHT be sufficient patronage to extend from Kenosha to Racine, but why go to Milwaukee? Or perhaps Amtrak should open a station in Kenosha (Truesdel, hwy 50) or maybe in at the state line. How about a nice bus service from Milwaukee connecting to the trains in either Kenosha or Racine? As solz pointed out, the Hiawatha's already serve the Chicago/Milwaukee travellers.
Although, considering how many southbound cars I see on I-94 at 5am every morning between Somers and Milwaukee, there seem to be enough long-distance commuters in this corridor.
If I'm reading the prior postings correctly, they are assuming that the Kenosha-Milwaukee service would be an extension of the existing North Line service from Chicago. The initial posting seems to suggest that this proposal would be oriented from Kenosha to Milwaukee, making Kenosha an endpoint between two suburban services, similar to Trenton, NJ (NJT and SEPTA) and Oceanside CA (Metrolink and Coaster).
I picture this route as being very local. Not being in competition with Amtrak.
I think the key paragraph of the article was the one describing the importance of weaving commuter rail into the fabric of the area. For instance, employers providing fares as an employee benefit. Auto parking fees aren't cheap. Marketing in the purist sense of its definition is what's been missing so often when it comes to public transportation.
Maybe this would be a good opportunity for Colorado Railcar.
PBenham wrote:Well, Wisconsin residents, are you willing to pay for this service? Amtrak will not add a train without a lot of state funds from the state(s) involved. The concept of returning passenger service to the old C&NW has merit, but UP runs it now, and there will be a fight and a half over finding a window in which the Amtrak train would be able to operate without interference from UP's freights. There aren't that many, but as we have seen UP and Amtrak are not the best of friends, right now.
The proposed service will have little or no impact on the Amtrak Hiawatha service. The latter is run on the CP, it is designed to provide fast service between Milwaukee and Chicago and because the route runs somewhat to the west of the Wisconsin communities, it would not be well suited to serving commuters from those towns to Milwaukee and environs.
The proposed service is more likely to be used by commuters going north from the state line and points north to Milwaukee and suburbs.
Some or perhaps most of the state funding is likly to come from sales taxes. Sales in the involved counties are already subject to "extra" sales tax to finance Miller Park, the stadium for the Milwaukee Brewers. We shop in that area, so I already pay an extra sales tax. I would have no more use for the extended commuter service than I now have for Miller Park, but I sure am not going to make a fuss about the prospect of paying a few more dollars to keep some cars off the highways.
No doubt, a majority of the other forum members from Wisconsin will not agree with my view on the tax thing.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
jeaton wrote: No doubt, a majority of the other forum members from Wisconsin will not agree with my view on the tax thing.
I would be all for a (slight) tax increase if the trains would make any appreciable difference in traffic; however, I do not see that as being the case.
I do know that during the 80's Metra kept tryng to take the trains out of Kenosha. The only thing which kept them there was an already-built coach yard. Metra considered using the south end of the yard at Waukegan (with all the expense of running the electrical and water hookups), but the additional expense of putting in crossovers north of Winthrop Harbour (so the trains deadheading north from Waukegan could return south) was deemed prohibitive.
CSSHEGEWISCH wrote: If I'm reading the prior postings correctly, they are assuming that the Kenosha-Milwaukee service would be an extension of the existing North Line service from Chicago. The initial posting seems to suggest that this proposal would be oriented from Kenosha to Milwaukee, making Kenosha an endpoint between two suburban services, similar to Trenton, NJ (NJT and SEPTA) and Oceanside CA (Metrolink and Coaster).
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I'm thinking the way CSSHEGEWISCG does: each state would have its own commuter line: Metra's already-established Chicago - Kenosha service, which hopefully would transfer relatively easily onto one that runs from Kenosha up to Milwaukee and presumably would be funded by Wisconsin or, if their law permits, perhaps a separate taxing agency (you may recall that gasoline is a little more expensive in the "six-county area" specifically to subsidize all forms of local mass transit).
I don't think such a link-up would in any way threaten or cannibalize existing Amtrak Hiawatha service to Milwaukee from Chicago. There are only a few stops in between, and they are useful to add passengers, including Milwaukee's airport and a new depot at Sturtevant WI (near Racine). Is it likely that Amtrak would insist on getting involved if a new Chicago-Milwaukee service on a "new" route were planned, which in essence would hark back to the days when the C&NW operated long-distance as well as commuter service? I mean, it's do-able Under such a set up, probable stops along the way would be Evanston-Davis, Highland Park, Waukegan, Kenosha and/or Racine. [I do not know if it is possible to route passenger traffic over to Mitchell (Milwaukee's airport); but that would certainly be a sweetener.] But since that is city hub to city hub, a parallel route to what already exists, wouldn't Amtrak be obliged to get involved?
At any rate, I don't see that happening, even though I would love it dearly. I can walk to Rogers Park station on what is now called the UP-North line. In the "olden days" pre-Amtrak the C&NW's stopped, at least some if not all, at Evanston - Davis Street. I could transfer. But it would be a bit more convenient -- although slower -- for me to get on a Rogers Park local to Kenosha and change there for the Kenosha-Milwaukee line. It is a waste of time for me to use the Hiawatha service; I'm nine miles north of Union Station and a bit more far from Glenview, which is well to the west of where I live. The time it would take me to get to the depot in Glenview would put me 20 minutes ahead on the Tollway, even at crowded times enough to get me on the "mainline" of I-94. Why not just drive? But certainly in eight to ten years, if I still live in my lakeside neighborhood (and hope I will), the ability to catch a local to get to Milwaukee would be wonderful. More to the point, I think that's what is wonderful to most people and the most feasible financially and politically. Again, just
(East Rogers Park, to be specific)
al-in-chgo wrote: Is it likely that Amtrak would insist on getting involved if a new Chicago-Milwaukee service on a "new" route were planned, which in essence would hark back to the days when the C&NW operated long-distance as well as commuter service? I mean, it's do-able Under such a set up, probable stops along the way would be Evanston-Davis, Highland Park, Waukegan, Kenosha and/or Racine. [I do not know if it is possible to route passenger traffic over to Mitchell (Milwaukee's airport); but that would certainly be a sweetener.] But since that is city hub to city hub, a parallel route to what already exists, wouldn't Amtrak be obliged to get involved?
Is it likely that Amtrak would insist on getting involved if a new Chicago-Milwaukee service on a "new" route were planned, which in essence would hark back to the days when the C&NW operated long-distance as well as commuter service? I mean, it's do-able Under such a set up, probable stops along the way would be Evanston-Davis, Highland Park, Waukegan, Kenosha and/or Racine. [I do not know if it is possible to route passenger traffic over to Mitchell (Milwaukee's airport); but that would certainly be a sweetener.] But since that is city hub to city hub, a parallel route to what already exists, wouldn't Amtrak be obliged to get involved?
The only way Amtrak would touch it is with a whole lot of state funding, otherwise they would just leave it as a commuter operation. Also unless a whole lot of money got dumped on the UP north line, a Chicago-Milwaukee train on the CNW would be a LONG trip. Metra's fastest schedule right now to Kenosha is 85 min from Chicago. Amtrak does the whole Chicago-Milwaukee trip in 94 min.
Bert
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: Is it likely that Amtrak would insist on getting involved if a new Chicago-Milwaukee service on a "new" route were planned, which in essence would hark back to the days when the C&NW operated long-distance as well as commuter service? I mean, it's do-able Under such a set up, probable stops along the way would be Evanston-Davis, Highland Park, Waukegan, Kenosha and/or Racine. [I do not know if it is possible to route passenger traffic over to Mitchell (Milwaukee's airport); but that would certainly be a sweetener.] But since that is city hub to city hub, a parallel route to what already exists, wouldn't Amtrak be obliged to get involved? The only way Amtrak would touch it is with a whole lot of state funding, otherwise they would just leave it as a commuter operation. Also unless a whole lot of money got dumped on the UP north line, a Chicago-Milwaukee train on the CNW would be a LONG trip. Metra's fastest schedule right now to Kenosha is 85 min from Chicago. Amtrak does the whole Chicago-Milwaukee trip in 94 min. Bert
I'm sure you're right, Bert. Amtrak wouldn't want to run such a line; ironically, though, I suspect there are other routes Amtrak defines as "inter-city" and demands a subsidy. (The prerogative of a monopoly, I guess. )
al
jeaton wrote: PBenham wrote:Well, Wisconsin residents, are you willing to pay for this service? Amtrak will not add a train without a lot of state funds from the state(s) involved. The concept of returning passenger service to the old C&NW has merit, but UP runs it now, and there will be a fight and a half over finding a window in which the Amtrak train would be able to operate without interference from UP's freights. There aren't that many, but as we have seen UP and Amtrak are not the best of friends, right now.The proposed service will have little or no impact on the Amtrak Hiawatha service. The latter is run on the CP, it is designed to provide fast service between Milwaukee and Chicago and because the route runs somewhat to the west of the Wisconsin communities, it would not be well suited to serving commuters from those towns to Milwaukee and environs. The proposed service is more likely to be used by commuters going north from the state line and points north to Milwaukee and suburbs. Some or perhaps most of the state funding is likly to come from sales taxes. Sales in the involved counties are already subject to "extra" sales tax to finance Miller Park, the stadium for the Milwaukee Brewers. We shop in that area, so I already pay an extra sales tax. I would have no more use for the extended commuter service than I now have for Miller Park, but I sure am not going to make a fuss about the prospect of paying a few more dollars to keep some cars off the highways.No doubt, a majority of the other forum members from Wisconsin will not agree with my view on the tax thing.
Um....yeah that's a big ten-four on the tax thing. Metra service will not reduce traffic on the freeway, and it will eat in to Amtrak's Hiawatha service. The distance between the UP line and the CP Rail line is a matter of a few miles. In fact, after crossing the CP line (I know this from rail fanning trips) you can make it to the UP line in less than five minutes in several areas with some co-operative stop lights. This would be overkill in a market that so far exists on paper.
To put it bluntly it is a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist.
I definitely would not be willing to pay more taxes given that it 'may' spur economic growth and that it 'might' reduce traffic on the freeway. And as for Miller Park and that tax fiasco, I still don't understand why baseball teams are making millions of dollars, even hundreds of millions, and somehow the taxpayer has to build them a nice fancy ball park. While we are discussing absolutely worthless taxes we might as well throw that one in there too.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
One rail line, two agencies (Illinois RTA & Wisconsin DOT?) is my understanding.
Quote by Zardoz:
There MIGHT be sufficient patronage to extend from Kenosha to Racine, but why go to Milwaukee?
Kenosha to Racine might be the first step. Remember, the station in downtown Racine was just rebuilt. I see this service happening in the near future. Even if the Kenosha to Milwaukee extension isn't needed today, transportation planners have to look into a crystal ball and try to predict what will be needed twenty years from now. Service would start slowly and then build up. Capacity and other improvemnts would be added as needed. Sound familar? Think Metra North Central (Wisconsin Central) Service. Also, it's not the style of Metra to have a connecting point (Kenosha) where passengers are forced to transfer. A few express trains would depart Milwaukee in the morning making all local stops until either Kenosha or Waukegan where passengers could transfer to a local and then the Milwaukee Express would run express to Evanston and finally Chicago. Throw in a mid-day local and maybe a reverse commute at night.
Also, keep in mind what can happen to a town when they get commuter service. Just because there doesn't appear to be a market where there isn't commuter rail service doesn't mean that there won't be a market after the commuter rail start-up. Keep an eye on Elburn, IL. Today a farmers field, tomorrow a subdivision of townhomes.
CC
Best solution: bring back the North Shore. That railroad was way ahead of it's time (2 hours Chicago to Milwaukee making 15 stops). If the Electroliners were still running, they'd have all the business they could want. http://www.northshoreline.com/
Yes, I know that a large percentage of the right-of-way has been converted to other uses, but one can dream......anyway, there's always Eminent Domain.
zardoz wrote: Best solution: bring back the North Shore. That railroad was way ahead of it's time (2 hours Chicago to Milwaukee making 15 stops). If the Electroliners were still running, they'd have all the business they could want. http://www.northshoreline.com/Yes, I know that a large percentage of the right-of-way has been converted to other uses, but one can dream......anyway, there's always Eminent Domain.
I think the NSL was in it's correct time .... The OPEC oil crisis was 10 years too late . The same can be said about Milwaukee's "other" system, let there be no doubt that Milwaukee once had a taste of REAL rapid transit !!!
Trains stopping at Evanston (two stations) Winetka, Glencoe, Highland Park, Lake Forest, Great Lakes, Waukegan, and all those additional stops Kenosha to Milwaukee are NOT going to take business away from Amtrak's Hiawatha service. Not anyway whatsoever. And if such a commuter service were superimposed on the Amtrak line, some capacity expansion probably would be necessary, and expensive, anyway. I do agree the old Northwester service is slow, not perhas as slow as the ex-Rock service south of the Loop, but certainly not as fast as some of the other Metra services. I think the return of the North Shore is a darn good idea and could be accomplished most easily by electrifying the old Northwestern Line, which does serve pretty much the same territory as the old CNS&M Shore Line. Actually at one point the C&NW considered doing this, but then Mayor Daly was opposed to wires and even suggested that he was worried about kids climbing on cars and contacting the wire! We hope someday to see a 90 minute Chicago - Milwaukee service on Amtrak, and then the electric suburban METRA service should be able to schedule and electric all-stops local at about 140 minuts with some rush hour skip stop trains making it in an even two hours. And money can be saved by running the line on rapid transit principles, with high platforms, prepayment with ticket machines, roving inspectors, etc. The equipment could possibly duplicate that on the existing Metra-Electric operation. Electric operation really shines in stop and go service.
Randy Stahl wrote: zardoz wrote: Best solution: bring back the North Shore. That railroad was way ahead of it's time (2 hours Chicago to Milwaukee making 15 stops). If the Electroliners were still running, they'd have all the business they could want. http://www.northshoreline.com/Yes, I know that a large percentage of the right-of-way has been converted to other uses, but one can dream......anyway, there's always Eminent Domain.I think the NSL was in it's correct time .... The OPEC oil crisis was 10 years too late . The same can be said about Milwaukee's "other" system, let there be no doubt that Milwaukee once had a taste of REAL rapid transit !!!
Ah, yes...the good old TMER&L.
FWIW-I do not remember where I read it, but I believe I-94 between Milwaukee and Kenosha is scheduled to be rennovated within a few years, with a 4th lane to be added at that time. I would venture a guess that during that construction, the Chicago-Milwaukee commute will be an agonizing one. And when it is done, the road will be merely adequate, barely able to handle all of the projected traffic levels.
What a perfect opportunity for the mass transit companies to lure riders out of their cars.
For more info: http://www.sewrpc.org/KRMonline/ (scroll down to the section regarding rail projects)
Also read about the plans for the Waukesha hwy 18/CN crossing to be made into an over or underpass. http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/us18study/cnindex.htm
The project is more important than the (funding) mechanism," Brandrup said.
Am I missing something here? Pretty scary mindset that leads to such a considered pronouncement on the backs of those he serves. I wonder what his checkbook ledger looks like....another example of a baby boomer having a flashback....
Wow!
That's a 750 percent increase!
What brilliant thinking -- stick the cost of the commuter line up the gazoo of people who need to travel to Wisconsin on business trips. Or vacationers.
$15 will really jack up the cost of a one-day rental -- I can't wait to hear more on this from the rental car companies.
Of course, the robbery new tax is subject to legislative approval -- let's hope someone in Madison can think more clearly on this.
Poppa_Zit wrote: Wow!That's a 750 percent increase!What brilliant thinking -- stick the cost of the commuter line up the gazoo of people who need to travel to Wisconsin on business trips. Or vacationers.$15 will really jack up the cost of a one-day rental -- I can't wait to hear more on this from the rental car companies.Of course, the robbery new tax is subject to legislative approval -- let's hope someone in Madison can think more clearly on this.
Don't hold your breath.........
wallyworld wrote:This knucklehead is the perfect storm..a combination of arrogance and ignorance..he might as well tax adult disposable diapers because this is evidence there is plenty of s__t to be had for the asking.
He probably owns property somewhere next to the tracks that he figures will go up in value when the trains start running.
Poppa_Zit wrote:What brilliant thinking -- stick the cost of the commuter line up the gazoo of people who need to travel to Wisconsin on business trips. Or vacationers.
Or those of us that rent vehicles for long trips... Of course, once the train starts running, we can just take the train down to the south end of Chicago rail service, and rent a car down there to avoid the tax...
The previous proposal was for an additional sales tax. At first, I was a little leery of it, as it sounded like a 1/2% hike in the tax (bringing Milwaukee over 6%), but after figuring out that it was a 1/20% tax, I began asking, why are people opposed to this??? (Other than Milw County Executive Scott Walker's assertion that the supposed "property tax relief" was very likely an outright lie...) Just for a real dollars perspective, this sales tax would amount to an additional penny for a $20.00 purchase, or an additional dollar on a $2,000.00 purchase!
I don't see the Hiawatha (or an expanded Hiawatha) as a reasonable alternative to a commuter train operating through the highest-population cities in the corridor. The proposed new stations bring rail transportation within walking distance of places such as Cudahy, Caledonia, and the far north side of Kenosha -- Sturtevant, or the Milwaukee Airport station, certainly can't boast such convenience. Not only that, but commuter train fares will be much lower in price than those of Amtrak.
And Solz, you've partially proved your own point... Milwaukee, Chicago, and everything in between are becoming suburbs of either larger city...!
Finally, it's true that I-94/US-41 will be reconstructed as early as 2009, so alternate, efficient commute routes will definitely be a plus...http://www.fuzzyworld3.com/3um/viewtopic.php?p=152http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/d2/i94/index.htm
fuzzybroken wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: What brilliant thinking -- stick the cost of the commuter line up the gazoo of people who need to travel to Wisconsin on business trips. Or vacationers.Or those of us that rent vehicles for long trips... Of course, once the train starts running, we can just take the train down to the south end of Chicago rail service, and rent a car down there to avoid the tax...The previous proposal was for an additional sales tax. At first, I was a little leery of it, as it sounded like a 1/2% hike in the tax (bringing Milwaukee over 6%), but after figuring out that it was a 1/20% tax, I began asking, why are people opposed to this??? (Other than Milw County Executive Scott Walker's assertion that the supposed "property tax relief" was very likely an outright lie...) Just for a real dollars perspective, this sales tax would amount to an additional penny for a $20.00 purchase, or an additional dollar on a $2,000.00 purchase!I don't see the Hiawatha (or an expanded Hiawatha) as a reasonable alternative to a commuter train operating through the highest-population cities in the corridor. The proposed new stations bring rail transportation within walking distance of places such as Cudahy, Caledonia, and the far north side of Kenosha -- Sturtevant, or the Milwaukee Airport station, certainly can't boast such convenience. Not only that, but commuter train fares will be much lower in price than those of Amtrak.And Solz, you've partially proved your own point... Milwaukee, Chicago, and everything in between are becoming suburbs of either larger city...!Finally, it's true that I-94/US-41 will be reconstructed as early as 2009, so alternate, efficient commute routes will definitely be a plus...http://www.fuzzyworld3.com/3um/viewtopic.php?p=152http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/projects/d2/i94/index.htm
Poppa_Zit wrote: What brilliant thinking -- stick the cost of the commuter line up the gazoo of people who need to travel to Wisconsin on business trips. Or vacationers.
Fuzzy-
I'm not trying to say that Amtrak's route is superior, but I am saying that it is within driving distance. If the goal is to offer an alternative to driving on a tore up freeway system then you are going to be going after people who are already driving - people who aren't likely to give that up and start walking to work from a train station. I just don't think that ANY tax increase justifies an entirely new passenger rail system when we already have one in place in the area. If there was that much demand for it, I am sure that a carrier would fill the void. In this case, people are trying to insert a market into a passenger rail system. They would be spending millions with no proven return on investment. If it doesn't work it isn't going to go away, they will just use it as an exscuse to raise 1/20 of 1 % to 1%, or whatever it takes.
It is a classic example of a city getting involved with massive spending on a project that will require massive maintenance costs for decades to come. Typically, once cities buy into this (Milwaukee is real guilty of this) they can't let go, even if it is a failure. The bus system is a perfect example. They offered all these routes and they didn't make any money. When they wanted to cut the routes to save money, the argument changed to how we are going to put people out of work. I didn't know it was the job of local government to give poeple jobs.
If the new passenger rail system is a failure it won't go away, people will use it as a justification to tax something even more. That is my main reason for being against it.
If this was a private enterprise my opinion would be 180 degrees opposite.
Point taken.
How do you then offer private enterprise opportunity in a subsidized reality? And when human nature presses for "let the other guy pay for it"? Farmers crowed about rail rates after the railroad came even though the shipping rates were significantly lower than before the railroad showed up.
Sturtevant - While the number of riders on Amtrak's Hiawatha line arriving in and departing from Sturtevant increased last year, it's too soon to quantify what it means financially for the village, officials said.
According the state Department of Transportation, 60,777 passengers used the Sturtevant stop in 2006, up 16% compared with 52,551 in 2005. That's a daily average of 167 in 2006 and 144 in 2005.
During the four full months after the new station opened, from September through December, ridership was up 14%, from 18,933 in the last four months of 2005 to 21,531, state figures show. But ridership was also up 14% in the seven full months before the station opened, figures showed.
August usage was very strong.
Ethan Johnson, program and planning analyst for the transportation department, said the vast majority of riders travel from Milwaukee to Chicago.
There are several reasons for the increase, but the most obvious is that as congestion in and around Chicago gets worse, people see the train as a more viable option.
Other reasons include roller coaster gasoline prices, increased marketing that has raised awareness of the line's availability, and a good on-time record.
"The increase is quite a healthy jump, and I'm sure the Hiawatha's on-time record, which is one of the best, certainly contributes to that, too," Johnson said. "But ridership has been steadily increasing since the addition of a seventh round-trip route in 2002 as well."
Fares remain consistent
Train fares have remained consistent, too, he said.
Amtrak raised the price of a one-way ticket from Milwaukee to Chicago to $21 from $20 in August. The last increase was in 2000.
The new station opened Aug. 14, and August was the strongest month for ridership, with a 33% gain, figures showed.
The 16% gain at the Sturtevant stop was a bigger increase than the overall 8% gain in Hiawatha ridership, which totaled a record 588,036 last year, although more data is needed to show the full impact of the new station, Johnson said.
Ridership jumped 82% at the Mitchell International Airport station, which accounted for almost nine-tenths of the overall Hiawatha increase.
Both of the new stations are very popular, partly because of "good parking, safe lighting and easy access," and partly because passengers in the southern part of the Milwaukee area prefer not to drive north to downtown Milwaukee to take a train south to Illinois, said Randy Wade, state passenger rail implementation manager.
Parking pays dividend
Sturtevant Village Administrator Mark Janiuk said an average of 60 cars a day use the paid lot at the new Amtrak depot in The Renaissance business park.
The station opened last August. Paid parking went into effect shortly after the stop began welcoming passengers.
Fees are $2 for every car coming into the lot.
"I know we're making money on the parking, and those funds are helping pay for the operation of the depot," Janiuk said.
The parking fees also have been used to implement suggestions made by riders.
For example, benches were installed in October on the platforms.
A monthly parking pass for $30 has been available since September.
There's a small added benefit to the pass over using cash every day.
Instead of having to insert money or a card into a slot and waiting for the machine to respond, monthly pass holders simply wave it in front of a sensor.
Several passengers also expressed concern with the safety of the elevated walkways and the platforms in the winter.
Janiuk said the village has contracted with a local company to keep the parking lot plowed and to make sure walkways and the platforms are free of snow and ice.
That he hasn't received any complaints is good news, he said.
"I take a drive and walk through the area every so often just to make sure everything is OK," he said. "And I'm counting on people calling me if there is a problem so we can take care of it right away."
Suggestions are welcome
Village President Steve Jansen said he welcomes suggestions and feedback from commuters and leisure riders alike.
"If we don't know something is needed, then we can't help," he said. "I know a lot of people weren't happy about paying for parking there, but parking money helps make passenger suggestions a reality."
Jansen did say the board is talking about how to provide access to the depot from Wisconsin St.
Residents who live within walking distance of the station are forced to drive or walk along Highway 20 to get to the depot.
"It's tricky, though, because of the retention pond on the corner and the storage facility there," he said. "But we think the idea definitely has merit so we'll look into it."
The only promise not yet fulfilled is that of artwork to adorn the interior walls of the depot.
Jansen said he is unsure when that will happen because anything that is installed will have to be permanent because of the materials used.
(Highlights mine)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=560682
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