Which line do you miss most?

[Pathfinder]

My vote would be for sections, especially the west end, of the Kettle Valley (CPR).  With bigger, more efficient saw mills in Princeton and Merritt along with the demand for co-gen (using wood waste) and a resurgence in coal mining at Coalmont there are a lot of trucks on narrow roads hauling stuff that should be on rail.

[Anonymous]

As for snoqualmie, Prying it out of the state's hands would be difficult, but not impossible.

Why would you want to?  It'd be better for the State to keep it and develop it as a cross state OA supplemental line.

[fuzzybroken]

while it was the most economic choice to do, i still wish CNW didnt abandon their main from Eau Claire to Superior. there were 3 additional trains through altoona due to that track, now there are a mere 2 manifests left. all coming through at night. i will forever hate BN for ripping the CN haulage rights out of CNW's hands and forcing them to abandon the line...jerks

Actually, you may as well hate the CNW and SOO for ripping the MILW out of CN's GTW hands, which is why CN said "heck with the both of you" and sent their trains via BN!

My choice for lines that should still be around would be CNW's line from Waukesha to Madison -- partially for sentimental reasons, though I understand it is an awesome bike trail now -- but it is also the most direct Milwaukee-Madison route, and was the first choice for high-speed passenger rail before it was removed.

The other is the ends of the Clyman Jct-Ft Atkinson line, which could make a nice direct route for Wisconsin & Southern!  The north end connects to the WSOR just west of Horicon (Minnesota Junction), and the south end would connect nicely at Milton (formerly Milton Junction).  But -- oh well!

I do kinda wish the state legislature wouldn't have had their hangup about "freight railroad" TMER&L and had subsidized it anyways...

 

[Kevin C. Smith]

Miss the most?

For purely sentimental reasons-mine. Specifically the C&NW branch that ran through my hometown. That has to be the one that hooked me on trains as a kid. We only lived a few blocks away and there was enough switching (and time for the crew to go for lunch) for me to go down and watch/follow them as they set out cars at the feed mill, plywood mill, etc. Ah, memories...

[bobwilcox]

I'll vote for TN Pass and it has nothing to do with the money.

[penncentral2002]

There are definitely some lines in the Washington area that I'd like to see back in service as commuter lines.  For example, the Washington & Old Dominion which got abandoned at a time when Loudon County, VA was sparcely populated.  Now, that Loudon County, VA is heavily populated, it would be nice to have a commuter connection from Leesburg to Arlington via Herndon, the Dulles Airport area, and Vienna.  Maybe as light rail, but if the W&OD was still around, it would cost a lot less to build the Metro connection to Dulles Airport. 

 It would also be nice for commuter reasons if the B&O Georgetown Branch was still in service.  A line from Rockville to Georgetown would be very popular and help with traffic.  Plus, if there was some sort of Metro service or light rail/trolleys to Georgetown (which of course there used to be) it would really help with congestion/parking in that area.  Of course, its hard to feel any sympathy for Georgetown given that they blocked a Metro stop in the 1970s because they were afraid that the Metrorail would attract the "wrong elements."  So, in a way its fitting that they are stuck watching business go elsewhere where people don't have to walk a mile to get to a Metro Station.  But, it would be a useful line - plus, it would be a shorter connection from the Red Line to the Orange and Blue Lines and make the Rockville area to Arlington connection more attractive to riding Metro and perhaps relieve some traffic pressure on the American Legion Bridge and congestion on the Red Line and in the Metro Center station. 

   

[SFbrkmn]

ATSF, MP, MKT. Also the old BN branch  in KS from Wichita into southeast KS.

[rrnut282]

I miss the Pennsy double track line through Fort Wayne.  Sixty passenger train a day, plus freight!  The line still exists as a single track shortline with one or two trains a day with a top speed of 40mph.  In the line's heyday a K4 (built in the local shop) set a speed record on this line west of town.  Born too late, I guess.

It does have one small glimmer of life.  This line has been identified as a possible route for the Midwest Hi-Speed Passenger Initiative out of Chicago, but I won't hold my breath.

[PBenham]

I miss the Pennsy double track line through Fort Wayne.  Sixty passenger train a day, plus freight!  The line still exists as a single track shortline with one or two trains a day with a top speed of 40mph.  In the line's heyday a K4 (built in the local shop) set a speed record on this line west of town.  Born too late, I guess.

It does have one small glimmer of life.  This line has been identified as a possible route for the Midwest Hi-Speed Passenger Initiative out of Chicago, but I won't hold my breath.

Good idea, we are still waiting to see the DL&W restored in Northwestern New Jersey, and waiting and...

[greyhounds]

Overall, I think the line rationalization of the late 20th Century was done very well. Please note I did not say it was done perfectly. The extra capacity needed today is generally not where is was and was taken out. (Low use branch lines add to congestion, they don't aleviate it.)

On the freight side, the only big mistakes I can think of are some old ACL double track that CSX probably wishes it had back. But who knew? And the old Rock Island between Memphis and Amarillo that fell through the cracks.

As for passenger service, having the North Shore and "Roarin Elgin" in place here in Chicagoland would help. NW Indiana is booming and the South Shore is a definite asset.

Since the old C&IM is still in place, I don't have any "emotional" losses as far as trackage.

What I miss is much of the "urgency" freight. The livestock, the mail, the fresh meat. I'm convinced much of the perishable business will find its way back to rail movement. But we ain't never gonna' see a livestock extra or a mail train again.

Now, I wrote this in four paragraphs. If it doesn't come out thata' way, it's not my fault.

Added on edit: Well, I can now fix the paragraph thingy, but it's pain in the caboose.

[Anonymous]

Which rail line do you think was the biggest mistake in abandoning?  Please explain why. 

In answering this question, if you must give a sentimental answer rather than a business-related answer, please say so.

Gabe

Sentiment aside, there is almost no long-haul infrastructure that we abandoned that we will truly, deeply later regret, so long as we didn't let the right-of-way revert to local landowners.  That's because the cost of recreating it is almost always less than the cost of having to maintain it during the period when it wasn't needed.  Assuming there was anything worth maintaining in the first place: I mean, really folks, just WHAT about the former Milwaukee Road infrastructure, other than some of the bridges, was worth saving?  The track was junk that if you had it today it, magically preserved as it was in 1980, you would hold your nose, scrape off, and throw away.  You couldn't run safely or economically on it.  It would be nothing but an expensive and unpleasant hazardous-waste disposal headache.  Even a lot of the bridges are cheaper to build new than maintain all these years.

The unfortunate mistake, as many have already pointed out, was losing the ROWs in cities such as PE, North Shore, CA&E, etc.  I can see how transportation planners 30 and 50 years ago could come to the conclusion we'd never need them again, and in fairness to them in the light of their day I think any reasonable person would have made the same decision.  What I wish they'd done was consider the downside risk they were incurring in not holding onto the ROWs compared to the almost infintesimal upside risk they gained by selling them.  But even if they had considered that, local, state, and national politics tied their hands; they had to let them go, or forgo dollars for highway and street projects that the public loudly demanded.

Had I the power to change the past, I think I would have held onto most of the ROW, and even most of the track too, though unlike many I am under no illusion that the track would ever be used again, only the ROW with 100% new track.  That's because even crummy track helps protect the embankment from erosion and helps keep the public thinking it's still a railroad.

Some of the long-haul ROW that reverted and didn't go to rails-to-trails we may someday want back, but for the foreseeable future I can't identify any.

S. Hadid

[upchuck]

The Amboye, Kelso & Pacific

[Anonymous]

I miss a number of railroad lines, but purely for sentimental reasons. I will be perfectly honest about that. Some old Illinois Central comes to mind right now. Most of the people who claim to be above sentiment, and claim to miss abandoned rail lines for purely economic reasons are not kidding anyone.

[Anonymous]

1.  The Milwaukee PCE for obvious reasons (but worth restating) - arguably the second best rail route between Chicago and the Puget Sound next to the GN/SP&S route.  Would certainly come in handy today to add competitive rail capacity through the Northern Tier states.  The Snoqualmie Pass portion of the PCE is still the best profile for crossing the Washington Cascades, and if BN management wasn't so addled we'd be seeing most BNSF traffic use this line rather than Stevens Pass and Stampede Pass.  In fact, using the ex-GN line westbound and the ex-Milwaukee line eastbound (e.g. directional running) was and is still a part of the Washington State DOT wish list for significantly increasing capacity between Spokane and Puget Sound.

Also, the portion of the PCE between Forsyth and Lombard would be a much better route than the MRL/BNSF line via Billings and Bozeman.

2.  The ex-SP&S between Spokane and Pasco - a superior profile to the ex-NP route current used, although I would liked to have seen the SP&S itself rerouted from Kalotous to Pasco via Connell, getting rid of the Snake River bridges and allowing bi-directional flow movements to the Pasco yard.  So I guess that makes the ex-OWR&N/ex-NP ROW between Connell and Kalotous 2a?

3.  The ex-UP/Milwaukee line through Spokane - When the '74 World's Fair came to Spokane, the powers that be convinced (forced?) the UP to use BN's ex-NP viaduct line through town, with the new Latah Creek bridge thrown in for good measure, so that the UP Union Depot and the ex-GN depot grounds could be used for the park.  Problem is, the ex-NP viaduct is both an eyesore and has low clearances, and has become a planning headache for area street managers.  The ex-UP line avoided downtown with the depot skirting the northern part of downtown right next to the river, then tunneled under the eastern end of downtown.  The depot could have been actively incorporated into the Expo site, so it's not like it had to be torn down for the park.

Plus, now UP trains play second fiddle to BNSF trains for getting permission to access the BNSF trackage rights - crews tend to go dead waiting for access at Fish Lake.  Truth is, the BNSF line through Spokane is now a chokepoint as the former three distinct lines into Spokane (GN, UP/Milwaukee, and NP) were converged into one corridor.

4.  The ex-NP line from Moscow ID to Lewiston ID - When the USACE finished the last navigation dam on the Snake River, creating the barge port at Lewiston, at first BN management saw an opportunity to use their line for shorthaul grain shuttles from the Palouse grain region to the barge port, and actually spent some decent money on upgrading the entire line from Marshall junction just west of Spokane all the way to Lewiston.  Then something happened on the managerial layer, and soon afterward BN embargoed service from Moscow to Arrow (just east of Lewiston).  The rails just layed there rusting for 20 years before BN finally tore them out prior to selling the entire line to a shortline operator.  BNSF gained nothing by doing this, as grain shippers continued to access the barge ports via trucks, so all they accomplished was severing the key link in the regional supply chain.  Now the lines are owned by the State of Washington in a taxpayer financed bailout, and BNSF itself hardly provides any grain hoppers to the shortline operator, prefering that grain be trucked to it's Ritzville shuttle facility.

Now you know why I really despise BNSF....

5.  The ex-GN lines in Montana from Havre to Great Falls to Helena to Butte - Yes, the Marias Pass is the best crossing of the Rocky Mountains (not counting Crowsnest and Yellowhead passes in Canada!), but that line from Havre to Helena represented a nice alternative routing to relieve congestion over Marias.  A few new short rail links here and there would have done the trick to make the routing viable without backtracking, but back then as we all know "capacity" was a dirty word in railroading lexicon. 

And that line over Elk Park Pass was the best westbound routing over the Divide to the Butte/Silver bow area compared to Mullan, Homestake, Pipestone or Dear Lodge passes.  Again, an opportunity was lost for directional running - Mullan could have been used for BNSF's eastbounds, Elk Park Pass for westbounds.

 

FM, you need a girl friend.

[gabe]

1.  The Milwaukee PCE for obvious reasons (but worth restating) - arguably the second best rail route between Chicago and the Puget Sound next to the GN/SP&S route.  Would certainly come in handy today to add competitive rail capacity through the Northern Tier states.  The Snoqualmie Pass portion of the PCE is still the best profile for crossing the Washington Cascades, and if BN management wasn't so addled we'd be seeing most BNSF traffic use this line rather than Stevens Pass and Stampede Pass.  In fact, using the ex-GN line westbound and the ex-Milwaukee line eastbound (e.g. directional running) was and is still a part of the Washington State DOT wish list for significantly increasing capacity between Spokane and Puget Sound.

Also, the portion of the PCE between Forsyth and Lombard would be a much better route than the MRL/BNSF line via Billings and Bozeman.

2.  The ex-SP&S between Spokane and Pasco - a superior profile to the ex-NP route current used, although I would liked to have seen the SP&S itself rerouted from Kalotous to Pasco via Connell, getting rid of the Snake River bridges and allowing bi-directional flow movements to the Pasco yard.  So I guess that makes the ex-OWR&N/ex-NP ROW between Connell and Kalotous 2a?

3.  The ex-UP/Milwaukee line through Spokane - When the '74 World's Fair came to Spokane, the powers that be convinced (forced?) the UP to use BN's ex-NP viaduct line through town, with the new Latah Creek bridge thrown in for good measure, so that the UP Union Depot and the ex-GN depot grounds could be used for the park.  Problem is, the ex-NP viaduct is both an eyesore and has low clearances, and has become a planning headache for area street managers.  The ex-UP line avoided downtown with the depot skirting the northern part of downtown right next to the river, then tunneled under the eastern end of downtown.  The depot could have been actively incorporated into the Expo site, so it's not like it had to be torn down for the park.

Plus, now UP trains play second fiddle to BNSF trains for getting permission to access the BNSF trackage rights - crews tend to go dead waiting for access at Fish Lake.  Truth is, the BNSF line through Spokane is now a chokepoint as the former three distinct lines into Spokane (GN, UP/Milwaukee, and NP) were converged into one corridor.

4.  The ex-NP line from Moscow ID to Lewiston ID - When the USACE finished the last navigation dam on the Snake River, creating the barge port at Lewiston, at first BN management saw an opportunity to use their line for shorthaul grain shuttles from the Palouse grain region to the barge port, and actually spent some decent money on upgrading the entire line from Marshall junction just west of Spokane all the way to Lewiston.  Then something happened on the managerial layer, and soon afterward BN embargoed service from Moscow to Arrow (just east of Lewiston).  The rails just layed there rusting for 20 years before BN finally tore them out prior to selling the entire line to a shortline operator.  BNSF gained nothing by doing this, as grain shippers continued to access the barge ports via trucks, so all they accomplished was severing the key link in the regional supply chain.  Now the lines are owned by the State of Washington in a taxpayer financed bailout, and BNSF itself hardly provides any grain hoppers to the shortline operator, prefering that grain be trucked to it's Ritzville shuttle facility.

Now you know why I really despise BNSF....

5.  The ex-GN lines in Montana from Havre to Great Falls to Helena to Butte - Yes, the Marias Pass is the best crossing of the Rocky Mountains (not counting Crowsnest and Yellowhead passes in Canada!), but that line from Havre to Helena represented a nice alternative routing to relieve congestion over Marias.  A few new short rail links here and there would have done the trick to make the routing viable without backtracking, but back then as we all know "capacity" was a dirty word in railroading lexicon. 

And that line over Elk Park Pass was the best westbound routing over the Divide to the Butte/Silver bow area compared to Mullan, Homestake, Pipestone or Dear Lodge passes.  Again, an opportunity was lost for directional running - Mullan could have been used for BNSF's eastbounds, Elk Park Pass for westbounds.

 

FM, you need a girl friend.

That would go against FM's policies, because that would allow an entire section of his life to be subject to a monopoly leaving the lucky girl without legitimate competitors, which would in turn allow her to impose unfair price structures for going out to dinner, birthdays, and vacations, ultimately leaving FM begging for open access to competitors and romanticizing old flings with worn down infrastructures that should never have been in the dating pool to begin with.

Gabe

FM, although the post I was responding to was clearly trying to insult you, I am not.  This is just good fun.  I hope you can take it as such.

[Anonymous]

FM, although the post I was responding to was clearly trying to insult you, I am not.  This is just good fun.  I hope you can take it as such.

Well, FM reminds me of my best friend in high school who was a hard-core libertarian "objectivist". Had nearly every book by Ayn Rand, and had read the introductions to some Milton Friedman books. I used to rib him a lot when he would go on libertarian tirades. Anyway my advice to this good friend back when we were 17-18 years old was, "dude, you need a girl friend." Some years later, when he was 35 years old he finally took my advice and got one!!! No hard feelings, FM.

[TimChgo9]

1.  The Milwaukee PCE for obvious reasons (but worth restating) - arguably the second best rail route between Chicago and the Puget Sound next to the GN/SP&S route.  Would certainly come in handy today to add competitive rail capacity through the Northern Tier states.  The Snoqualmie Pass portion of the PCE is still the best profile for crossing the Washington Cascades, and if BN management wasn't so addled we'd be seeing most BNSF traffic use this line rather than Stevens Pass and Stampede Pass.  In fact, using the ex-GN line westbound and the ex-Milwaukee line eastbound (e.g. directional running) was and is still a part of the Washington State DOT wish list for significantly increasing capacity between Spokane and Puget Sound.

Also, the portion of the PCE between Forsyth and Lombard would be a much better route than the MRL/BNSF line via Billings and Bozeman.

2.  The ex-SP&S between Spokane and Pasco - a superior profile to the ex-NP route current used, although I would liked to have seen the SP&S itself rerouted from Kalotous to Pasco via Connell, getting rid of the Snake River bridges and allowing bi-directional flow movements to the Pasco yard.  So I guess that makes the ex-OWR&N/ex-NP ROW between Connell and Kalotous 2a?

3.  The ex-UP/Milwaukee line through Spokane - When the '74 World's Fair came to Spokane, the powers that be convinced (forced?) the UP to use BN's ex-NP viaduct line through town, with the new Latah Creek bridge thrown in for good measure, so that the UP Union Depot and the ex-GN depot grounds could be used for the park.  Problem is, the ex-NP viaduct is both an eyesore and has low clearances, and has become a planning headache for area street managers.  The ex-UP line avoided downtown with the depot skirting the northern part of downtown right next to the river, then tunneled under the eastern end of downtown.  The depot could have been actively incorporated into the Expo site, so it's not like it had to be torn down for the park.

Plus, now UP trains play second fiddle to BNSF trains for getting permission to access the BNSF trackage rights - crews tend to go dead waiting for access at Fish Lake.  Truth is, the BNSF line through Spokane is now a chokepoint as the former three distinct lines into Spokane (GN, UP/Milwaukee, and NP) were converged into one corridor.

4.  The ex-NP line from Moscow ID to Lewiston ID - When the USACE finished the last navigation dam on the Snake River, creating the barge port at Lewiston, at first BN management saw an opportunity to use their line for shorthaul grain shuttles from the Palouse grain region to the barge port, and actually spent some decent money on upgrading the entire line from Marshall junction just west of Spokane all the way to Lewiston.  Then something happened on the managerial layer, and soon afterward BN embargoed service from Moscow to Arrow (just east of Lewiston).  The rails just layed there rusting for 20 years before BN finally tore them out prior to selling the entire line to a shortline operator.  BNSF gained nothing by doing this, as grain shippers continued to access the barge ports via trucks, so all they accomplished was severing the key link in the regional supply chain.  Now the lines are owned by the State of Washington in a taxpayer financed bailout, and BNSF itself hardly provides any grain hoppers to the shortline operator, prefering that grain be trucked to it's Ritzville shuttle facility.

Now you know why I really despise BNSF....

5.  The ex-GN lines in Montana from Havre to Great Falls to Helena to Butte - Yes, the Marias Pass is the best crossing of the Rocky Mountains (not counting Crowsnest and Yellowhead passes in Canada!), but that line from Havre to Helena represented a nice alternative routing to relieve congestion over Marias.  A few new short rail links here and there would have done the trick to make the routing viable without backtracking, but back then as we all know "capacity" was a dirty word in railroading lexicon. 

And that line over Elk Park Pass was the best westbound routing over the Divide to the Butte/Silver bow area compared to Mullan, Homestake, Pipestone or Dear Lodge passes.  Again, an opportunity was lost for directional running - Mullan could have been used for BNSF's eastbounds, Elk Park Pass for westbounds.

 

FM, you need a girl friend.

Hey!  My ex-wife is available.....

[VerMontanan]

1Now you know why I really despise BNSF....

5.  The ex-GN lines in Montana from Havre to Great Falls to Helena to Butte - Yes, the Marias Pass is the best crossing of the Rocky Mountains (not counting Crowsnest and Yellowhead passes in Canada!), but that line from Havre to Helena represented a nice alternative routing to relieve congestion over Marias.  A few new short rail links here and there would have done the trick to make the routing viable without backtracking, but back then as we all know "capacity" was a dirty word in railroading lexicon. 

And that line over Elk Park Pass was the best westbound routing over the Divide to the Butte/Silver bow area compared to Mullan, Homestake, Pipestone or Dear Lodge passes.  Again, an opportunity was lost for directional running - Mullan could have been used for BNSF's eastbounds, Elk Park Pass for westbounds.

 

FM, you need a girl friend.

.

Actually, he needs a girlfriend with a good knowledge of Montana railroading geography.  Opposites attract, as they say.  Claiming that the railroad over Elk Park Pass to be the best westbound route over the Continental Divide in the Butte area couldn't be more incorrect.  It was, by far, the worst route over the Divide in this area, and therefore logically was the first to be abandoned.  Deer (not Dear, as FM states) Lodge Pass (UP) northbound is 1.3 percent, Pipestone Pass (MILW) was 2.0 percent, Homestake (NP) and Mullan (NP) were/are 2.2 percent.  Elk Park Pass (GN) was also 2.2 percent (from Bernice, west of Basin to Elk Park) over the Continental Divide, but this wasn't the worst of it...from Clancy to Amazon tunnel was also 2.2 percent...so basically you had two 2.2 percent grades that were separated by that the railroad dropped into the valley of the Boulder River near Boulder and then climbed back out.  Every once in awhile abandoning duplicate routes makes sense, and this was the case with Elk Park Pass shortly after the BN merger when the Butte Local out of Great Falls began operating via Garrison and Deer Lodge.

[Anonymous]

I sure hope you all got your new blow up dolls in time for Christmas.

[TimChgo9]

I sure hope you all got your new blow up dolls in time for Christmas.

I had to return mine..... she leaked....

[Anonymous]

I miss the Mo-Pac "Belt line". And the CNW "Cowboy line".

[Anonymous]

 

1Now you know why I really despise BNSF....

5.  The ex-GN lines in Montana from Havre to Great Falls to Helena to Butte - Yes, the Marias Pass is the best crossing of the Rocky Mountains (not counting Crowsnest and Yellowhead passes in Canada!), but that line from Havre to Helena represented a nice alternative routing to relieve congestion over Marias.  A few new short rail links here and there would have done the trick to make the routing viable without backtracking, but back then as we all know "capacity" was a dirty word in railroading lexicon. 

And that line over Elk Park Pass was the best westbound routing over the Divide to the Butte/Silver bow area compared to Mullan, Homestake, Pipestone or Dear Lodge passes.  Again, an opportunity was lost for directional running - Mullan could have been used for BNSF's eastbounds, Elk Park Pass for westbounds.

Actually, he needs a girlfriend with a good knowledge of Montana railroading geography.  Opposites attract, as they say.  Claiming that the railroad over Elk Park Pass to be the best westbound route over the Continental Divide in the Butte area couldn't be more incorrect.  It was, by far, the worst route over the Divide in this area, and therefore logically was the first to be abandoned.  Deer (not Dear, as FM states) Lodge Pass (UP) northbound is 1.3 percent, Pipestone Pass (MILW) was 2.0 percent, Homestake (NP) and Mullan (NP) were/are 2.2 percent.  Elk Park Pass (GN) was also 2.2 percent (from Bernice, west of Basin to Elk Park) over the Continental Divide, but this wasn't the worst of it...from Clancy to Amazon tunnel was also 2.2 percent...so basically you had two 2.2 percent grades that were separated by that the railroad dropped into the valley of the Boulder River near Boulder and then climbed back out.  Every once in awhile abandoning duplicate routes makes sense, and this was the case with Elk Park Pass shortly after the BN merger when the Butte Local out of Great Falls began operating via Garrison and Deer Lodge.

Glad to see my good chum Mark is back from whatever it is that he does.  And as usual he presents a partial synopsis for the seeming purpose of misrepresenting the gist of the facts in the case.

I will reiterate:  Elk Park Pass has the best westbound approach for a Continental Divide crossing in mainstem Montana, better than Mullan, better than Homestake, better than Pipestone, and yes, better than Deer Lodge Pass.  Elk Park Pass is named for Elk Park, an 8 mile long flat basin at the top of the Continental Divide north of Butte.  From the breaks of Basin Canyon to the pass, it is nearly a 0% gradient from a geological perspective.

The fact that JJ Hill and friends chose to convalute an up and down 2.2%  route between Helena and Butte (as Mark so graciously admits) in no way takes away from the geologic gift that Elk Park Pass would have made for a more mainline westbound approach, should NP or Milwaukee have chosen to use Elk Park Pass.  Hey, even JJ and friends could have rebuilt the GN Butte line into a more gentler alignment if it had been in their interests, you know, since JJ practically had to rebuild the entire GN in other places (insert fake coughing sound "Haskell's Pass").

And although using Elk Park Pass for a major east-west mainline railroad crossing of the CD in Montana would have been a bit longer than Mullan, Homestake, or Pipestone, it would still have been less mileage than if NP or Milwaukee had used Deer Lodge Pass for the purpose of an east-west mainline.

[zardoz]

I sure hope you all got your new blow up dolls in time for Christmas.

I call mine "Boxcar Bertha".

[eolafan]

1.  The Milwaukee PCE for obvious reasons (but worth restating) - arguably the second best rail route between Chicago and the Puget Sound next to the GN/SP&S route.  Would certainly come in handy today to add competitive rail capacity through the Northern Tier states.  The Snoqualmie Pass portion of the PCE is still the best profile for crossing the Washington Cascades, and if BN management wasn't so addled we'd be seeing most BNSF traffic use this line rather than Stevens Pass and Stampede Pass.  In fact, using the ex-GN line westbound and the ex-Milwaukee line eastbound (e.g. directional running) was and is still a part of the Washington State DOT wish list for significantly increasing capacity between Spokane and Puget Sound.

Also, the portion of the PCE between Forsyth and Lombard would be a much better route than the MRL/BNSF line via Billings and Bozeman.

2.  The ex-SP&S between Spokane and Pasco - a superior profile to the ex-NP route current used, although I would liked to have seen the SP&S itself rerouted from Kalotous to Pasco via Connell, getting rid of the Snake River bridges and allowing bi-directional flow movements to the Pasco yard.  So I guess that makes the ex-OWR&N/ex-NP ROW between Connell and Kalotous 2a?

3.  The ex-UP/Milwaukee line through Spokane - When the '74 World's Fair came to Spokane, the powers that be convinced (forced?) the UP to use BN's ex-NP viaduct line through town, with the new Latah Creek bridge thrown in for good measure, so that the UP Union Depot and the ex-GN depot grounds could be used for the park.  Problem is, the ex-NP viaduct is both an eyesore and has low clearances, and has become a planning headache for area street managers.  The ex-UP line avoided downtown with the depot skirting the northern part of downtown right next to the river, then tunneled under the eastern end of downtown.  The depot could have been actively incorporated into the Expo site, so it's not like it had to be torn down for the park.

Plus, now UP trains play second fiddle to BNSF trains for getting permission to access the BNSF trackage rights - crews tend to go dead waiting for access at Fish Lake.  Truth is, the BNSF line through Spokane is now a chokepoint as the former three distinct lines into Spokane (GN, UP/Milwaukee, and NP) were converged into one corridor.

4.  The ex-NP line from Moscow ID to Lewiston ID - When the USACE finished the last navigation dam on the Snake River, creating the barge port at Lewiston, at first BN management saw an opportunity to use their line for shorthaul grain shuttles from the Palouse grain region to the barge port, and actually spent some decent money on upgrading the entire line from Marshall junction just west of Spokane all the way to Lewiston.  Then something happened on the managerial layer, and soon afterward BN embargoed service from Moscow to Arrow (just east of Lewiston).  The rails just layed there rusting for 20 years before BN finally tore them out prior to selling the entire line to a shortline operator.  BNSF gained nothing by doing this, as grain shippers continued to access the barge ports via trucks, so all they accomplished was severing the key link in the regional supply chain.  Now the lines are owned by the State of Washington in a taxpayer financed bailout, and BNSF itself hardly provides any grain hoppers to the shortline operator, prefering that grain be trucked to it's Ritzville shuttle facility.

Now you know why I really despise BNSF....

5.  The ex-GN lines in Montana from Havre to Great Falls to Helena to Butte - Yes, the Marias Pass is the best crossing of the Rocky Mountains (not counting Crowsnest and Yellowhead passes in Canada!), but that line from Havre to Helena represented a nice alternative routing to relieve congestion over Marias.  A few new short rail links here and there would have done the trick to make the routing viable without backtracking, but back then as we all know "capacity" was a dirty word in railroading lexicon. 

And that line over Elk Park Pass was the best westbound routing over the Divide to the Butte/Silver bow area compared to Mullan, Homestake, Pipestone or Dear Lodge passes.  Again, an opportunity was lost for directional running - Mullan could have been used for BNSF's eastbounds, Elk Park Pass for westbounds.

 

FM, you need a girl friend.

Hey!  My ex-wife is available.....

Perhaps FM could manage to sway Rosie O'Donnell over from "the dark side".

[Anonymous]

I miss not having the Jersey Central around.

[senshi]

I have to agree with an earlier post about the old Chicago Great Western.  I really wish I had been born in time to see trains running along IL64 between Sycamore, IL and St. Charles, IL.  I also agree that now the route could be a good detour route for UP around the old CNW main.  It also would have given them a second route between Chicago and the Twin Cities.

[VerMontanan]

Futuremodal: "I will reiterate:  Elk Park Pass has the best westbound approach for a Continental Divide crossing in mainstem Montana, better than Mullan, better than Homestake, better than Pipestone, and yes, better than Deer Lodge Pass.  Elk Park Pass is named for Elk Park, an 8 mile long flat basin at the top of the Continental Divide north of Butte.  From the breaks of Basin Canyon to the pass, it is nearly a 0% gradient from a geological perspective."

**

Not quite flat....the GN station at Elk Park at the east end of the area was at 6237 feet, and Woodville at the top of the Divide at the west end is at 6354.  The railroad was a 1.1 percent westward ascending grade.  But all this is irrelevant.  After all, who cares that it is relatively flat at Elk Park?  The grade is getting to this relatively flat basin, and that's where the grades are.  This is like saying that Soldier Summit is flat, because it is, relatively speaking.  It's getting to the flat part where the grades in excess of 2 percent on both sides come into play.

Futuremodal: "The fact that JJ Hill and friends chose to convalute an up and down 2.2%  route between Helena and Butte in no way takes away from the geologic gift that Elk Park Pass would have made for a more mainline westbound approach, should NP or Milwaukee have chosen to use Elk Park Pass.  Hey, even JJ and friends could have rebuilt the GN Butte line into a more gentler alignment if it had been in their interests, you know, since JJ practically had to rebuild the entire GN in other places (insert fake coughing sound "Haskell's Pass")."

**

As for the "made for a more mainline westbound approach", I assume a word is missing here...but I am guessing you think Elk Park would have been better for the NP or MILW.  All the passes including Elk Park were surveyed by these railroads, and they chose to build elsewhere.  I agree with the decisions of the NP and MILW not to use Elk Park.  The GN line was steep enough between Boulder and the Continental Divide, and it didn't even have to climb out of the Boulder River Valley (where the Boulder townsite is located) as would have a railroad (like NP or MILW) that would have been built up the Boulder River Valley from near Cardwell (where the Boulder River flows into the Jefferson River).  The GN Boulder station was high above the community to the west as not to lose too much elevation between Amazon Tunnel and the entrance to the Boulder River Canyon.  Any railroad built up the Boulder River from Cardwell would have had all the more elevation gain to overcome.   One can only conclude that your stance is based on that your position is superior to the NP and MILW engineers who surveyed all the route alternatives and made their choice based on their findings as well as the resources they had available to perform the construction. 

It is interesting (and hypocritical) that you criticize the GN for changing some of its alignment on the on hand, but in this case suggest the NP and MILW should have changed theirs.  But in the case of James J. Hill rebuilding the Butte line had he wanted....well, he did that (this is, after all, a discussion of east-west routes across Montana).   When it came time for GN to build to the coast, routes out of Butte were briefly considered, but he didn't settle for his route over Elk Park Pass, but built west from Havre over Marias Pass and found the route that even today handles the most tonnage between the Mississippi River Valley and Pacific Northwest with the least amount of locomotive power.  And that's just not my opinion or shouldawouldacoulda,  that's daily operating reality.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps FM could manage to sway Rosie O'Donnell over from "the dark side".

Anyone got a hunk of limburger and a bear trap we could use?

[Anonymous]

Futuremodal: "I will reiterate:  Elk Park Pass has the best westbound approach for a Continental Divide crossing in mainstem Montana, better than Mullan, better than Homestake, better than Pipestone, and yes, better than Deer Lodge Pass.  Elk Park Pass is named for Elk Park, an 8 mile long flat basin at the top of the Continental Divide north of Butte.  From the breaks of Basin Canyon to the pass, it is nearly a 0% gradient from a geological perspective."

**

Not quite flat....the GN station at Elk Park at the east end of the area was at 6237 feet, and Woodville at the top of the Divide at the west end is at 6354.  The railroad was a 1.1 percent westward ascending grade.  But all this is irrelevant.  After all, who cares that it is relatively flat at Elk Park?  The grade is getting to this relatively flat basin, and that's where the grades are.  This is like saying that Soldier Summit is flat, because it is, relatively speaking.  It's getting to the flat part where the grades in excess of 2 percent on both sides come into play.

Futuremodal: "The fact that JJ Hill and friends chose to convalute an up and down 2.2%  route between Helena and Butte in no way takes away from the geologic gift that Elk Park Pass would have made for a more mainline westbound approach, should NP or Milwaukee have chosen to use Elk Park Pass.  Hey, even JJ and friends could have rebuilt the GN Butte line into a more gentler alignment if it had been in their interests, you know, since JJ practically had to rebuild the entire GN in other places (insert fake coughing sound "Haskell's Pass")."

**

As for the "made for a more mainline westbound approach", I assume a word is missing here...but I am guessing you think Elk Park would have been better for the NP or MILW.  All the passes including Elk Park were surveyed by these railroads, and they chose to build elsewhere.  I agree with the decisions of the NP and MILW not to use Elk Park.  The GN line was steep enough between Boulder and the Continental Divide, and it didn't even have to climb out of the Boulder River Valley (where the Boulder townsite is located) as would have a railroad (like NP or MILW) that would have been built up the Boulder River Valley from near Cardwell (where the Boulder River flows into the Jefferson River).  The GN Boulder station was high above the community to the west as not to lose too much elevation between Amazon Tunnel and the entrance to the Boulder River Canyon.  Any railroad built up the Boulder River from Cardwell would have had all the more elevation gain to overcome.   One can only conclude that your stance is based on that your position is superior to the NP and MILW engineers who surveyed all the route alternatives and made their choice based on their findings as well as the resources they had available to perform the construction. 

It is interesting (and hypocritical) that you criticize the GN for changing some of its alignment on the on hand, but in this case suggest the NP and MILW should have changed theirs.  But in the case of James J. Hill rebuilding the Butte line had he wanted....well, he did that (this is, after all, a discussion of east-west routes across Montana).   When it came time for GN to build to the coast, routes out of Butte were briefly considered, but he didn't settle for his route over Elk Park Pass, but built west from Havre over Marias Pass and found the route that even today handles the most tonnage between the Mississippi River Valley and Pacific Northwest with the least amount of locomotive power.  And that's just not my opinion or shouldawouldacoulda,  that's daily operating reality.

Well, well, well, we finally figured out how to get a more relevant answer from Montana's recent winner of the "Sunniest Disposition Award"!

First you say the westbound approach to Elk Park Pass was 2.2%, now you admit it is a more gentler 1.1%.  Sure, 1.1% is not 0%, but it's a heck of a lot more preferable for mainline operations (then and now) than that 2.2%.  That coupled with the fact that the pass needed no summit tunnel makes it on par with Marias Pass.  The difference of course is in the fact that, unlike JJ's approach to Marias using the ridgetops and the massive bridge over Two Medicine Creek, the Montana Central's builders decided to dip down into Boulder off the Prickly Pear Creek watershed via Amazon Tunnel, then followed the banks of Boulder River then the Bison Creek canyon to make it back to the more moderate gradient of the Elk Park basin, rather than maintaining a more constant elevation by keeping to the mountainsides.  A perfect example of this technique would be the comparison of the Milwaukee and NP in the St. Regis River canyon farther west, where NP stayed close to the river while Milwaukee started using the mountainsides past Haugen.

Of course, for NP or Milwaukee there would have been no need for any tunnels like Amazon, since NP could have followed the Boulder River valley all the way, and Milwaukee could have cut across the Warm Springs Creek plateau between Lombard and the Boulder Valley. 

And if one thinks about it (rather than a kneejerk response), the fact that both NP and Milwaukee could have (1) avoided the need for a summit tunnel (like they ended up having to do for Mullan and Pipestone respectively), (2) procured a gentler grade via the mountainsides of the Boulder Valley (at around 1% rather than their 2.2% and 1.9% respectively), and (3) avoided a lot of reverse curves in the process - such would have paid dividends for years for both railroads.  And all that would cost them operationally would have been slightly longer mainlines.

I would venture that the major reason Milwaukee chose not to do so had more to do with GN already occupying Elk Park Pass, than any sophistric reasoning based on the Montana Central's chosen profile.  Who knows what kind of legal wrenches JJ might have tried to throw at the Milwaukee should they have attempted that approach?  As for NP, their charter limited grades to 2.2%, and they chose to test the max of the charter rather than having the foresight to keep gradients under the "helper district" degree.  Remember, NP could have utilized Deer Lodge Pass but chose the shorter and steeper Mullan Pass route, and farther west in Washington they chose Stampede Pass over the gentler grades of Snoqualmie Pass.  I doubt they even knew where Elk Park Pass was.

[vsmith]

Which line do you miss most?

Which rail line do you think was the biggest mistake in abandoning?  Please explain why.

In answering this question, if you must give a sentimental answer rather than a business-related answer, please say so.

Gabe

Well what do you want? these are contradictory questions.

 

The line I miss the most is a toss up between SP and SF .  'cause I grew up around them, that sentimental enough?

Abandoned? how should I know?

OK the D&RGW narrow gauge circle route thru central Colorado, That would be one hellova awesome tourist train if it still existed. Imagine overnighting 2 or 3 days on a train like the Silverton or the Cumbres & Toltec while rolling thru some of the craziest ROWs on earth!