Which line do you miss most?

[gabe]

Which rail line do you think was the biggest mistake in abandoning?  Please explain why.

In answering this question, if you must give a sentimental answer rather than a business-related answer, please say so.

For instance, I most miss the IC's Springfield - St. Louis line.  I could make a half-hearted argument that the IC wishes it still had it, because now it does not have an efficient line between Chicago and St. Louis.  But, in my heart, I know that my argument is crazy, because that area is saturated with railroads, and it probably helped rather than hurt railroading when this line was abandoned.

I am told that the Rock's Memphis line is really missed, as it would be invaluable to a BNSF as an intermodal gateway.

I look forward to hearing your answers.

Gabe

[zardoz]

The North Shore Interurban lines.

The trains travelled at 80mph (on jointed rail back in the '50's), were electrically powered, and were perfect for commuters travelling between Chicago, Milwaukee, and points in between. 

Considering the level of ridership on the Metra North line, and the renewed interest in rebuilding the ex-CNW between Kenosha and Milwaukee, I believe the line would be incredibly popular.

[eolafan]

I recall the C&NW line that ran from Green Bay west to Wausau and then beyond to somewhere near Eau Clair.  I recall seeing very long freights on this line when we lived in Wausau back in the 1970's and they used to come through town from Green Bay and passed the old C&NW passenger station (by then Billy Moi's One World Inn...a Chinese restaurant) and on west, they used to haul these with sometimes six or more old GP and really old FM Baby Train Master units!

I also miss seeing the C&NW up in the Minaqua/Woodruff Wisconsin area at about the same time passing east-west through Woodruff when we went camping in "dem dare nort woods".  Nowadays "roughing it" to me means a Holiday Inn with room doors that oprn to the outside. Also the C&NW line that went through Marshfield, WI...roughly paralelling the old SOO Line main line through town...now much traffic on the C&NW but colorful just the same.  Add to that the old Milwaukee Road line through Wautoma, WI where we used to ship carloads of bath tubs to an old plumbing wholesale customer of mine (tracks now torn up and right of way long gone).  Finally the Milwaukee Road line that went through Antigo, WI...I used to call on a plumbing across the street from the tracks VERY often just to be able to see the daily freight come past.

Oh the memories!

[Poppa_Zit]

That's easy.

My answer is about 20 percent sentimental and 80 percent practical.

The Chicago area could use the Chicago, Aurora and Elgin interurban back in operation. And some historians who know more than I could make a similar case for the North Shore Line, as well. [Note added later -- Zardoz was already taking care of the NSL while I was still composing this post. You know what they say about great minds...] 

Because now the daily commute in Chicagoland isn't from the suburbs into the city as it was in the 1950s and 1960s when these lines were deemed duplicitous and therefore obsolete; it goes in both directions. The CA&E was liquidated far too early -- the rural communties it served for 60 years are now almost totally built-out, and the highway system is near gridlock. Both lines were before their time.

 

[Tharmeni]

The Monon between Indianapolis and Chicago.  A fast, direct line that would have been much better for Amtrak today than their current meandering route through Crawfordsville.  It should have been saved as a banked corridor.

It's totally gone.  Sad.

[zgardner18]

Southern Pacific

Santa Fe

[Bob-Fryml]

"Zardoz" (Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee) and "Poppa_Zit" (Chicago, Aurora and Elgin) said it all for me.

And should Michael Sol ever choose to contribute to this thread, I'll second his comments about the Puget Sound Extension (The Milwaukee Road).

One line I get sentimental over is the C.& N.W. branch that ran along the Fox River in northern Illinois, the one which connected the cities of Elgin, East Dundee, Carpentersville, Algonquin, and Crystal Lake.  Although many of the freight customers along this scenic line disappeared in the ensuing decades after WW2, I've often thought it might be a useful feeder for the Railroad's Harvard Subdivision communter operations.

QUESTION:  Did the Illinois Railway Musuem ever consider purchasing this line?  Strung with trolley wire and operated with ancient interurban equipment, it would have easily become the bucolic traction operation in America.  

[tpatrick]

Given the growing flood of intermodal traffic on CSX and NS, I would nominate the Erie main from Chicago to New York. In the past it never generated much local business because it bypassed most of the large cities. But it did well on reefer traffic, carrying perishables to eastern markets. It could repeat that act today, with high speed intermodal taking the place of the reefers.

For me, that would be sentimental. Is it practical? I leave that up to you.

[Randy Stahl]

The North Shore Interurban lines.

The trains travelled at 80mph (on jointed rail back in the '50's), were electrically powered, and were perfect for commuters travelling between Chicago, Milwaukee, and points in between. 

Considering the level of ridership on the Metra North line, and the renewed interest in rebuilding the ex-CNW between Kenosha and Milwaukee, I believe the line would be incredibly popular.

I'll add that any of the TMER&L lines today would have been in high growth area's , i.e. Thiensville- Port Washington. All today are very busy corridors, not to mention Waukesha-Milwaukee, Burlington-Milwaukee ( How many lanes is Hwy 36 up to ?)

Randy

[Anonymous]

Erie Lackawanna - all the way from Hammond to Port Jervis.  With that line's wide ROW it would've been perfect for high-speed COFC.

[TimChgo9]

That's easy.

My answer is about 20 percent sentimental and 80 percent practical.

The Chicago area could use the Chicago, Aurora and Elgin interurban back in operation. And some historians who know more than I could make a similar case for the North Shore Line, as well. [Note added later -- Zardoz was already taking care of the NSL while I was still composing this post. You know what they say about great minds...] 

Because now the daily commute in Chicagoland isn't from the suburbs into the city as it was in the 1950s and 1960s when these lines were deemed duplicitous and therefore obsolete; it goes in both directions. The CA&E was liquidated far too early -- the rural communties it served for 60 years are now almost totally built-out, and the highway system is near gridlock. Both lines were before their time.

 

I agree with PZ, the CA&E could find alot of use nowadays.  When I was growing up, I used to live a couple of blocks from the old CA&E right of way, that ran through Berkeley, and have vague memories of the CGW being torn up.   Unfortunately rebuilding the CA&E would be alot of work, as most the line east of 1st Avenue is built over.... but if you look on Google Earth, you can trace the route, as it is the Illinois Prairie Path through DuPage County... and, the old CA&E bridge in Wheaton still stands over the UP.  (Great site for pictures of westbound trains...) 

That said, it would make a great commuter line still.... ah, the "if only's"

 

[zardoz]

I'll add that any of the TMER&L lines today would have been in high growth area's , i.e. Thiensville- Port Washington. All today are very busy corridors, not to mention Waukesha-Milwaukee, Burlington-Milwaukee ( How many lanes is Hwy 36 up to ?)

Randy

How could I have forgotten the TMER&L?!  I agree; those lines would likely be very useful now.

And Randy, hwy 36 was recently (5? years ago) upgraded to a 4-lane limited-access divided highway from Burlington to Franklin.

[CShaveRR]

Practicality--I'd say CNS&M and CA&E--provided CA&E somehow was able to run directly into Chicago again.

Sentimentality:  Lines west out of Grand Rapids to Grand Haven and Muskegon.  The line from GR to Muskegon might have been practical, as it would give the new short line a way to avoid the drawbridge at Grand Haven--which will only get balkier as time goes by.

Logic:  Why am I asking to lose two of my favorite bicycle trails?

[alphas]

I miss the old Northern Central (part of the Pennsy) parts that no longer exist--Williamsport, PA to Northern NY  and  Harrisburg to Baltimore.   These parts were basically abandoned after Hurricane Agnes in the 1970's.   The Nothern part is strictly for senimental reasons--great scenary and plenty of helpers heading towards Elmira.  It was really something to see in the steam era which lasted until about 1957 on it.  However, commuter-style rail service, similar to NJT's longer distance runs to the NYC area, over the Harrisburg to Baltimore part could well have had a place today or in the near future given that the commuter territory for the Baltimore to north DC area now extends into southern PA up to about York, while York north is in the Harrisburg commuter range.  (Although it would have taked some upgrading of the line.)    For those not familiar with it, the southernmost part of the line is now part of the Baltimore light rail system which should be extending northward if funding becomes available and the NIMBY objections are overcome.  

[RR Redneck]

I miss the  good ole Southern Pacific and the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe railraod.

[n012944]

"Zardoz" (Chicago, North Shore and Milwaukee) and "Poppa_Zit" (Chicago, Aurora and Elgin) said it all for me.

And should Michael Sol ever choose to contribute to this thread, I'll second his comments about the Puget Sound Extension (The Milwaukee Road).

One line I get sentimental over is the C.& N.W. branch that ran along the Fox River in northern Illinois, the one which connected the cities of Elgin, East Dundee, Carpentersville, Algonquin, and Crystal Lake.  Although many of the freight customers along this scenic line disappeared in the ensuing decades after WW2, I've often thought it might be a useful feeder for the Railroad's Harvard Subdivision communter operations.

QUESTION:  Did the Illinois Railway Musuem ever consider purchasing this line?  Strung with trolley wire and operated with ancient interurban equipment, it would have easily become the bucolic traction operation in America.  

As for IRM ever thinking of purchasing this line I would have to say no.  The line from Elgin to Crystal Lake was ripped out in the early 80's, by that time IRM was pretty well established in Union.

 

Bert

[n012944]

I would like to second the nomination for the CA&E, built way ahead of its time.  One line that I do not see mentions much is the ex CGW main across Illinois and Iowa.  With all the traffic the UP has on the Geneva sub, you would think that they would kill to have another main across those two states and into Chicago.

 

Bert

[MP173]

I will jump right in and affirm the Erie Lackawanna.  I also see the need for the Milwaukee Road PCE line from St. Paul westward.  That would keep things much more civil, tho not as entertaining on this board.

I also believe from a lines on a map basis the B&O from Cincinnati to Washington would have been valuable.

The Kankakee Belt line to South Bend would have been a nice route around Chicago.

Sentimentally, it would be the Mattoon - Evansville lC line.

Gabe...you got a few days off for the holidays?

ed

[YoHo1975]

Well, Chicago is will represented. My Choice would be the Milwaukee Road's lines west.

 

Right now, BNSF is at capacity with trains going over the Cascades. Steven's pass is less then adequate with a summit tunnel that could kill, Stampede pass isn't much better if not worse.

 

Snoqualmi pass twists and turns, but it's a gentle grade. And the tunnels are pretty much already big enough for double stack.

 

BN and it's Frisco managments couldn't see the nose in front of their faces and have given themselves a headache now.  

[PBenham]

I miss the Lehigh Valley west of Sayre,PA, 90% of which is gone. The Finger Lakes operates a few miles of the Valley main out of Geneva, NY. Ontario Midland runs on the Shortsville-Victor remnant of the main, while one can ride into Niagara Falls NY on Amtrak from CP25 on CSX's Niagara Sub into the Amtrak Station there, which happens to have been the LV freight house built in the early 60's by the New York State Power Authority (that's right, the power authority) in exchange for the old freight station, closed when the LV yard in the "Monteagle" section of Niagara Falls was taken out of service. Why them you ask? Well, the NYSPA and Niagara Falls removed NYC trackage (upon which LV had trackage rights) from downtown Niagara Falls to eliminate numerous grade crossings, and permit the authority to disrupt service on the "old" right of way while the water intake passages were drilled from the Niagara River to the power project site in Lewiston, north of the city. The LV was allowed to close it's old yard to permit re-development of that area. They built public housing there. No further comment on that!

While it is still possible, one can ride to CP28 on the "Maple Leaf", ATK 63/64, on Valley trackage.

[Poppa_Zit]

I would like to second the nomination for the CA&E, built way ahead of its time.  One line that I do not see mentions much is the ex CGW main across Illinois and Iowa.  With all the traffic the UP has on the Geneva sub, you would think that they would kill to have another main across those two states and into Chicago.

 

Bert

This would be my third choice, Bert.

When the UP Overland Route was closed for several days at Galt thanks to a derailment taking the old double-truss bridges down over the creek, I couldn't help but wonder if the UP was wishing the CNW wouldn't have pulled the plug so fast on the CGW. That would bring the UP closer to even with BNSF, which has two double-track mains into Chicago from Galesburg and points west.

[Lord Atmo]

while it was the most economic choice to do, i still wish CNW didnt abandon their main from Eau Claire to Superior. there were 3 additional trains through altoona due to that track, now there are a mere 2 manifests left. all coming through at night. i will forever hate BN for ripping the CN haulage rights out of CNW's hands and forcing them to abandon the line...jerks

[espeefoamer]

The Pacific Electric. L.A. has finally realized the mistake,and are spending BILLIONS of $$$$ to replace the P.E. bit by bit.

[chad thomas]

<>Well I might be a bit biased but I think scrapping the Modoc was a mistake. They could have kept it in good enough condition  (well for slow running anyway) to restore, on short notice, as a detour, for relatively little money, at a minimum.  There are only 3 sets of gates between Alturas and Wendel to re-activate and put the arms back on, plus 3 detectors to turn back on to change its status from railbanked to active. As long as they keeped up on maintaining drainage and vegitation controll, and make sure Caltrans doesn't pave the crossings, then it could have been a valuable  emergency relief route in the event of closures elsewhere. When heavy snowfalls hit Donner or the Feather River Canyon is one big slide zone, the Modoc offered a way to get at least a limited amount of traffic around the blockage in relatively few detour miles (at least by western standards). It could also detour traffic from a closed Shasta line to Flannigan,  and through the FRC for I-5 corridor traffic. It would also be the logical alternative for UPs Portland-Pocotello exOSL  line should a major closure be caused by something big like a volcano eruption or even a flood or major bridge closure.

 

That's if keeping it open were not practacle. It is only 100 miles of track (ripped out) that could save the day for several other routes in the event of a prolonged closeure (Donner / Feather River route, Shasta route, OSL route and even BNSF detours). Not to mention with capacity becomeing scarce another transcon connector (shortcut) might come in handy.  The biggest logistic issue  is  crew availability and  the capacity constraints of running  on dark territory with limited sideing capacity. But hey, in an emergency, limited detour capacity is better then no capacity.

That's all assumeing there is not justification to keep the line open for through traffic on it's own merrits as a shortcut. The Modoc line saves 240 miles and 5-6k feet of elev climb (If memory serves) over the Klamath-Rosevile-Reno-Winnemucca route. Granted the former SP northern Oregon traffic has a shorter route over the UPs exOSL line now, but if traffic is booming and capacity on the alternatives is tight then the Modoc might make sense again.

I doubt that will ever happen now though, seeing as how it would take another $100 million to restore the missing Alturas-Wendel segment. Besides I wouldn't put it past UP to pull up a line to keep it from falling into BNSFs hands and the Modoc qualified as haveing future potential for that with BNSF now running on the Highline and the Overland. 

[Anonymous]

1.  The Milwaukee PCE for obvious reasons (but worth restating) - arguably the second best rail route between Chicago and the Puget Sound next to the GN/SP&S route.  Would certainly come in handy today to add competitive rail capacity through the Northern Tier states.  The Snoqualmie Pass portion of the PCE is still the best profile for crossing the Washington Cascades, and if BN management wasn't so addled we'd be seeing most BNSF traffic use this line rather than Stevens Pass and Stampede Pass.  In fact, using the ex-GN line westbound and the ex-Milwaukee line eastbound (e.g. directional running) was and is still a part of the Washington State DOT wish list for significantly increasing capacity between Spokane and Puget Sound.

Also, the portion of the PCE between Forsyth and Lombard would be a much better route than the MRL/BNSF line via Billings and Bozeman.

2.  The ex-SP&S between Spokane and Pasco - a superior profile to the ex-NP route current used, although I would liked to have seen the SP&S itself rerouted from Kalotous to Pasco via Connell, getting rid of the Snake River bridges and allowing bi-directional flow movements to the Pasco yard.  So I guess that makes the ex-OWR&N/ex-NP ROW between Connell and Kalotous 2a?

3.  The ex-UP/Milwaukee line through Spokane - When the '74 World's Fair came to Spokane, the powers that be convinced (forced?) the UP to use BN's ex-NP viaduct line through town, with the new Latah Creek bridge thrown in for good measure, so that the UP Union Depot and the ex-GN depot grounds could be used for the park.  Problem is, the ex-NP viaduct is both an eyesore and has low clearances, and has become a planning headache for area street managers.  The ex-UP line avoided downtown with the depot skirting the northern part of downtown right next to the river, then tunneled under the eastern end of downtown.  The depot could have been actively incorporated into the Expo site, so it's not like it had to be torn down for the park.

Plus, now UP trains play second fiddle to BNSF trains for getting permission to access the BNSF trackage rights - crews tend to go dead waiting for access at Fish Lake.  Truth is, the BNSF line through Spokane is now a chokepoint as the former three distinct lines into Spokane (GN, UP/Milwaukee, and NP) were converged into one corridor.

4.  The ex-NP line from Moscow ID to Lewiston ID - When the USACE finished the last navigation dam on the Snake River, creating the barge port at Lewiston, at first BN management saw an opportunity to use their line for shorthaul grain shuttles from the Palouse grain region to the barge port, and actually spent some decent money on upgrading the entire line from Marshall junction just west of Spokane all the way to Lewiston.  Then something happened on the managerial layer, and soon afterward BN embargoed service from Moscow to Arrow (just east of Lewiston).  The rails just layed there rusting for 20 years before BN finally tore them out prior to selling the entire line to a shortline operator.  BNSF gained nothing by doing this, as grain shippers continued to access the barge ports via trucks, so all they accomplished was severing the key link in the regional supply chain.  Now the lines are owned by the State of Washington in a taxpayer financed bailout, and BNSF itself hardly provides any grain hoppers to the shortline operator, prefering that grain be trucked to it's Ritzville shuttle facility.

Now you know why I really despise BNSF....

5.  The ex-GN lines in Montana from Havre to Great Falls to Helena to Butte - Yes, the Marias Pass is the best crossing of the Rocky Mountains (not counting Crowsnest and Yellowhead passes in Canada!), but that line from Havre to Helena represented a nice alternative routing to relieve congestion over Marias.  A few new short rail links here and there would have done the trick to make the routing viable without backtracking, but back then as we all know "capacity" was a dirty word in railroading lexicon. 

And that line over Elk Park Pass was the best westbound routing over the Divide to the Butte/Silver bow area compared to Mullan, Homestake, Pipestone or Dear Lodge passes.  Again, an opportunity was lost for directional running - Mullan could have been used for BNSF's eastbounds, Elk Park Pass for westbounds.

 

[youngengineer]

not really torn out, but not likely to see trains again is the tennesse pass line, absolute beautiful to photograph. sentimental i know but that was mountain railroading.

[ajmiller]

Track #2 around Horseshoe Curve.

[Anonymous]

 The B&O --- many of my family worked for them including my granfather and the railroad was their whole life . He lived very near the tracks at Oldtown, Maryland and I'd hear one coming as a kid and run to the tracks to listen and watch up close ! Darn I miss those days . Then the engineers would always yank that whistle/horn to see me jump and stars light up in my eyes. Seeing the engineer or anyone in the cab wave was like seing santa claus ! And get this there was a real HOBO who would stop by every once in awhile and my grandmother would give him food and a drink ! She'd always say "GOD BLESS HIM " after he left . You can't buy memories like that . I'd just stare in amazement -- he was a very sweet old man .

[YoHo1975]

FM, most of that can be blamed on bad Frisco managment. It's a railroad legacy that managment from the subsumed road be given prominant roles in the parent railroad. BN went on a slash and burn of lines and those flatlanders had no idea what they had.

 

As for snoqualmie, Prying it out of the state's hands would be difficult, but not impossible.

[Anonymous]

Chicago & Northwestern. The (iowa) Oelwein- Clarion line, the Oelwein- St. Paul line, and the Oelwein- Chicago lines. These were 3 of the 4 lines that CGW constructed out of it's hub (oelwein). When C&NW took over CGW in '68, they ran the lines for a while, but in 1981 the St.Paul and Chicago lines were abandoned, the Oelwein- Clarion line lasted till '84.

This is mostly for senimental reasons.