GLobal Warming Add

[vsmith]

If you believe evolution is not a fact,

then you better go back to school.

 

Evolution is a faith based thing. Being a God fearing Christian, I believe evolution to be one of the biggest lies Satan has ever made come to.

[traisessive1]

Has anyone else seen the commercial yet?

[traisessive1]

If you believe evolution is not a fact,

then you better go back to school.

 

Evolution is a faith based thing. Being a God fearing Christian, I believe evolution to be one of the biggest lies Satan has ever made come to.

[wallyworld]

As I type this, I just saw Brian Williams on the NBC Nightly News stating NASA has just announced the ozone layer has grown to ten million square miles in size. I will be joining Dr Strangelove in the kommand kapsule shortly. Cue in Connie Francis.."Que Sera Sera..whatever will be will be..the future's not ours to see.." Crisis, What crisis?

[Poppa_Zit]

 

The simple unavoidable facts are ...

 

FACT global atmospheric temperatures ARE rising

FACT global ocean temperatures ARE rising

FACT mountain glaciers worldwide ARE receding- fast

FACT polar ice caps ARE receding

 

[solzrules]

If you believe evolution is not a fact,

then you better go back to school.

 

Dave

 

Or maybe you should read your textbook.  Theories are not facts.  They have yet to be proven.  There is a big difference between fact and theory. 

[Poppa_Zit]

If you believe evolution is not a fact,

then you better go back to school.

 

Dave

Well, I did go to school. And what I learned was that the Theory of Evolution certainly seems plausible enough to be a fact... BUT it is not a fact.

It will not become a fact until someone discovers a transitional (or intermediate) fossil -- the proverbial "missing link."

PZ 

[solzrules]

I have to laugh every time I read comments by Global Warming nay-sayers.

 

The simple unavoidable facts are ...

 

FACT global atmospheric temperatures ARE rising

FACT global ocean temperatures ARE rising

FACT mountain glaciers worldwide ARE receding- fast

FACT polar ice caps ARE receding

 

[vsmith]

The insidious thing is that the effects can be so slow as to not raise alarms. Did anyone here know that some Pacific Islanders and Alaskan Inuitts who have been living on islands in the South Pacific and along the Alaskan coastline for centuries, have now had to evacuate due to rising tide levels? Small sea level change can bring dramatic changes. We havent realy seen the end results yet, we know whats happening, we know whats supposed to happen. I fear that nothing will be done for fear of short term losses today, leading to massive repercussions when it becomes apparent 20 years from now that we should have acted today.

 

There is no spaceark, no other place to go....life will go on, Earth has survived much worse than man can throw at it, but the big questions that no one seams to want to consider is...will our civilization survive...History is repleat with civilazationa that today are nothing more than a thin layer in an archeological dig....anyone ever see Planet of the Apes, and actually understand the allegory?

[Datafever]

My two cents

A lot of hypocrisy floating around is the way that I see it.  Is there a problem with global warming (regardless of its cause)?  Sure, I guess so.  Can we realistically do anything to prevent it?  Perhaps - it depends upon the cause.  If the cause is that we are in a cycle where the earth is spending more time closer to the sun, or that the sun is radiating more energy, or anything like that, then no, we can't do anything about it except get prepared for the consequences, and move away from the shoreline.

But even if the cause is man-generated, what exactly do the alarmists expect to see happen?  Don't people understand that reduction of greenhouse gasses comes at a cost?  A huge cost?  Kiss goodbye to your standard of living.  In fact, if you really believe in your cause, then why are you still living a lifestyle that belies your position - driving your car everywhere you go, using electricity as if it were going out of style, conspicuous consumption, etc?  Anyone who truly believes in this cause should immediately sell their car, downsize their house (and their toys), live significantly more frugally than anyone would normally think possible, etc. etc. etc.

For the record, I don't own a car.  I use public transportation everywhere I go.  I live in a studio apartment even though I could easily afford to rent (or even own) a three bedroom house.  In a word, my existence is frugal - by choice.

If something is worth the effort, it will get done.

[vsmith]

 

 

The simple unavoidable facts are ...

 

FACT global atmospheric temperatures ARE rising

FACT global ocean temperatures ARE rising

FACT mountain glaciers worldwide ARE receding- fast

FACT polar ice caps ARE receding

 

 

I don’t have any problem believing that there is a climatic warming trend underway.  The climate changes just as the seasons change.  Everything on earth changes all the time.  Even the continents are in motion.  But it is a giant leap of faith to believe that our lifestyles are causing this current warming trend.  It is also a giant leap of faith to assume that the current trend is going to completely destroy the planet in a few dozen years. 

 

There is a lot of talk of people having their heads in the sand for not rising to the alarm.  I would submit that one must have their head in the sand to miss the absurdity of the two abovementioned leaps of faith.

Excuse me?

 

Please go back and read the whole post, I never stated anything of the like. You're simply reading that into it.

 

Just where do I infer those two conclusions? I specificly stated that the CAUSE is not the issue, but that its the REALITY that changes ARE occuring is the issue and WHAT will we do as a people to deal with it.

 

Climates change, Yes. The the big difference between now and the last big climate warming is that we were not around and now about a billion people living on the coastlines in major cities here in the US and around the world, your conveniently ignoring that, try thinking about the possible repercusions in the long term. Oceans rise and fall, but where in the past animals would simply move inland as the waters rose, we over the last 5000 years have built our biggest cities that are also some of our biggest economic generators.  Can you imaging giving the enormous impact if we have to abandon the coastlines for in some places (Louisiana, Florida)  hundreds of miles inland? Think about what would happen to global shipping, economics and trade, let alone peoples lives and investments like real estate. Some entire nations will simply dissappear if the worst thats predicted comes to pass. I havent even talked about weather pattern shifts which will also have an impact globaly. So please THINK!

 

Maybe when the rising waters reach your front door THEN maybe you'll admit something bad is going on....I guess until then, enjoy the sandbox...

 

I agree that you did not address the cause, but the cause is centerpiece of the current global warming debate.  The whole premise of the issue is that man’s use of fossil fuel is causing catastrophic destruction the planet, and that the only remedy is for mankind to change its energy production and consumption.  You may not have said it, but it is inseparable from the topic.  In fact, if it were not for the belief that global warming is caused by man, I doubt there would even be a debate. 

 

While you did not mention the cause, you have certainly stated the assumed effect with your examples above and your exhortation for me to admit that, "something bad is going on."  I contend that both the effect of global warming and the cause are irrational leaps of faith with very little evidence, let alone proof.

[espeefoamer]

2000 years ago,the Romans were growing wine grapes in Britan. 1000 years ago,the British were growing thier own wine grapes.This went on until about 800 years ago.In our past,it has  been much warmer than it is today.

[Anonymous]

 

 

The simple unavoidable facts are ...

 

FACT global atmospheric temperatures ARE rising

FACT global ocean temperatures ARE rising

FACT mountain glaciers worldwide ARE receding- fast

FACT polar ice caps ARE receding

 

 

I don’t have any problem believing that there is a climatic warming trend underway.  The climate changes just as the seasons change.  Everything on earth changes all the time.  Even the continents are in motion.  But it is a giant leap of faith to believe that our lifestyles are causing this current warming trend.  It is also a giant leap of faith to assume that the current trend is going to completely destroy the planet in a few dozen years. 

 

There is a lot of talk of people having their heads in the sand for not rising to the alarm.  I would submit that one must have their head in the sand to miss the absurdity of the two abovementioned leaps of faith.

Excuse me?

 

Please go back and read the whole post, I never stated anything of the like. You're simply reading that into it.

 

Just where do I infer those two conclusions? I specificly stated that the CAUSE is not the issue, but that its the REALITY that changes ARE occuring is the issue and WHAT will we do as a people to deal with it.

 

Climates change, Yes. The the big difference between now and the last big climate warming is that we were not around and now about a billion people living on the coastlines in major cities here in the US and around the world, your conveniently ignoring that, try thinking about the possible repercusions in the long term. Oceans rise and fall, but where in the past animals would simply move inland as the waters rose, we over the last 5000 years have built our biggest cities that are also some of our biggest economic generators.  Can you imaging giving the enormous impact if we have to abandon the coastlines for in some places (Louisiana, Florida)  hundreds of miles inland? Think about what would happen to global shipping, economics and trade, let alone peoples lives and investments like real estate. Some entire nations will simply dissappear if the worst thats predicted comes to pass. I havent even talked about weather pattern shifts which will also have an impact globaly. So please THINK!

 

Maybe when the rising waters reach your front door THEN maybe you'll admit something bad is going on....I guess until then, enjoy the sandbox...

 

I agree that you did not address the cause, but the cause is centerpiece of the current global warming debate.  The whole premise of the issue is that man’s use of fossil fuel is causing catastrophic destruction the planet, and that the only remedy is for mankind to change its energy production and consumption.  You may not have said it, but it is inseparable from the topic.  In fact, if it were not for the belief that global warming is caused by man, I doubt there would even be a debate. 

 

While you did not mention the cause, you have certainly stated the assumed effect with your examples above and your exhortation for me to admit that, "something bad is going on."  I contend that both the effect of global warming and the cause are irrational leaps of faith with very little evidence, let alone proof.

[JSGreen]

Blind faith in science is blind faith that man knows what he is doing.  All scientists used to claim that the world was flat, and that was considered a locked-tight fact.  They look pretty stupid now, don't they? 

Actually, I think you'll find science did not claim that the world was flat.  As I learned it, it was "science"  that said the world was round, and the sun did not revolve around the earth...it was the church that disagreed. And instead of a rational argument backed up by observations, it was a persecution and ex-communication, and sometimes death, to those who challenged "Common Knowledge", and poor translations of a book that was put together by a committee 300 years after the fact...Good thing we are above all that by now, isnt it.

Blind faith in Science is as dangerous as blind faith in religious matters. 

But have you asked yourself, "What is the worst that can happen, if I am wrong?"

[Anonymous]

If you believe evolution is not a fact,

then you better go back to school.

 

Dave

 

Man it's cold out here this morning!!!!!!

 

I think I am going to go light a few puddles of oil on fire and see if I can't move this process along somehow.  Maybe I'll build a mini coal-fired power plant but I WON'T PUT IN THE SCRUBBERS!

Seriously,

For all of you who think that global warming is a locked-tight fact think of it this way - Global warming is a theory, not a fact.  Kind of like evolution.  It is a theory, something that CANNOT be replicated in a laboratory.  Can global warming be proven?  Can it be replicated on a small scale? 

Blind faith in science is blind faith that man knows what he is doing.  All scientists used to claim that the world was flat, and that was considered a locked-tight fact.  They look pretty stupid now, don't they? 

I still don't see how we as human beings can claim that based on maybe 100 years of accurate temps we know that we are amplifying the natural process of the earth that has been going on for millions of years (IF you subscribe to the unproven THEORY of evolution).  That is supposed to be science?  To my friend in the Netherlands - when is the ocean supposed to rise 1 meter?  Because I have heard from the global warming apologists figures ranging from a couple of inches in 100 years (most semi-rationale global warming advocates) to 400 feet in 5 years (mental home patients and Al Gore).  It's kind a like trying to eat all the food that scientists claim is healthy for you: bacon, then no bacon, coffee, then no coffee, red meat, than no red meat, then red meat in small quantities, no eggs, then eggs, oh wait, no eggs, but now you can have eggs but not the yolks, blah blah blah blah.  Finally you start to realize that these people don't really know anything and that they are just shooting from the hip.  I intend to live a full life and die knowing that I enjoyed it.  I intend to encourage my children to do the same.   

[vsmith]

 

 

The simple unavoidable facts are ...

 

FACT global atmospheric temperatures ARE rising

FACT global ocean temperatures ARE rising

FACT mountain glaciers worldwide ARE receding- fast

FACT polar ice caps ARE receding

 

 

I don’t have any problem believing that there is a climatic warming trend underway.  The climate changes just as the seasons change.  Everything on earth changes all the time.  Even the continents are in motion.  But it is a giant leap of faith to believe that our lifestyles are causing this current warming trend.  It is also a giant leap of faith to assume that the current trend is going to completely destroy the planet in a few dozen years. 

 

There is a lot of talk of people having their heads in the sand for not rising to the alarm.  I would submit that one must have their head in the sand to miss the absurdity of the two abovementioned leaps of faith.

[wallyworld]

I would not be overly alarmed, it's already happening, drip by drip. If you check out the facts on biodiversity and loss of species, they are well on the way. Mass extinctions of coral reefs to date can be thrown in the mix. That train left the station. Loss of landmass in the U.S is confined primarily to the East Coast. Dr Strangelove would squirm in his wheelchair and say, "Ahh... Famine and pestilence are old hat....a managable calculation" Cars still squeeze their way onto entrance ramps in rush hour, politicians still posture for approval, sloganeers still trade barbs and life goes on, such as it is. It would take an equally extraordinary leap of faith to think human nature and it's extraordinary appetite for self comforting rationality will greet tomorrow in any other manner other than the way it did today. That would indeed be a miracle. T.S Elliott said it well, the world will not end with a bang but with a whimper. Or as Kurt Vonnegut remarked, "And so it goes.."

[Anonymous]

It is also a giant leap of faith to assume that the current trend is going to completely destroy the planet in a few dozen years. 

 

I do not think any rational person believes global climactic change will "completely destroy the world" (as you phrased it).  It will merely have a tremendous impact of our fragile societies, economies, and political situations.  That's all.

Yes, I suppose that the complete destruction of the planet could be an exaggeration if taken to mean that the earth would cease to exist.  However, the predictions of the assumed threat are indeed catastrophic, including famine, pestilence, destructive weather, loss of species, and loss of land mass-- all of Biblical proportions.  Certainly the prediction is profoundly dire. 

Meanwhile, the assumed timetable has been speeded up so this disaster is considered to be well underway now, and likely to reach its fullest effect within fifty years.  Indeed, we are being told that if we don’t act sufficient to reverse the trend within ten years, it will pass the point of no return and become irreversible.  It’s still a giant leap of faith considering that this whole worry is based mainly on a sufficient temperature measurement going back fifty years or so, and extrapolating a warming of perhaps one degree per century at the most.

[broncoman]

This would be a great one hour episode for the Mythbusters!  Facts and Myths about global warming!
I think they already addressed the cow fart scenrio.

[wallyworld]

Thats an interesting observation. The 1985 movie (that some of you may remember) "Runaway Train" that starred John Voight was originally written by Akira Kurosawa, who developed the story line about the escaped convicts being prisoners on a runaway train. The storyline was sprung from the concept that the human race, and or condition shares the same premise. The idea that ultimately , the illusion of controlling anything is nothing more than a pathological wish, resulting in disaster.

[StillGrande]

I find their choice of a train rather than a truck to represent global warming interesting. 

It can be diverted or turned around, unless you switch tracks (Okay, we are sending the atmosphere to Mars, problem diverted!).

Not easy to stop (so what could we do about it anyway?)

You know where it is going and what path it will take (the whole pro and con argument hinges on what is not known, mights, and coulds). 

Okay, it is on a manmade path, but you could easily argue that the roads are manmade and are a bigger problem than what the railroads represent.  (You can also holler that cars are a bigger problem and trains, but that really isn't their point here)

Not arguing for or against.  Just find it interesting the choice of symbolism. 

[Poppa_Zit]

Blind faith in science is blind faith that man knows what he is doing.  All scientists used to claim that the world was flat, and that was considered a locked-tight fact.  They look pretty stupid now, don't they? 

How about poor Copernicus? He made three trips to the Vatican in Rome from his native Poland to demonstrate his groundbreaking discovery that the earth and planets revolve around the sun, instead of the other way around -- as had been taught since before man began recording history. After all, in those days even The Bible said the sun moved around the earth, and who would question The Good Book?

Only on his third trip did Copernicus finally get the "scientific experts" in Rome to accept his heliocentric (sun-centered) principle of the solar system. There he received much deserved acclaim.

And then, they went ahead and corrected The Bible.

Or, in another landmark scientific discovery, the first bacteria were observed by Anton van Leeuwenhoek in 1674 using a single-lens microscope of his own design. Prior to that, the scientific community accepted that old saw "what you cannot see cannot exist."

Following up was Louis Pasteur, who fought the criticsm of "experts" and pioneered the germ theory of disease. Once established, he was able to create vaccines for rabies, among others. He boiled milk under pressure to kill harmful microscopic bacteria, which to that point the experts denied existed. He also pioneered the theory and process of sterilization to create a safe, antiseptic atmosphere in surgery.

Maybe global warming is occurring because we're exchanging concrete and blacktop for former prairies and woodlands, and all that aggregate holds heat longer than undeveloped open space.  Oops! Let's not forget that all of the wetlands we're creating promote decomposition, which also produces greenhouse gases.

PZ 

[blhanel]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that, although the ice caps/glaciers in the northern hemisphere are shrinking, the antarctic ice cap is actually expanding.  This might explain why we haven't seen a big jump in the ocean level yet.

[jpwoodruff]

Global Warming = A theory, that is not proven....

I could go on about it...

<<trimmed by JPW>>

From all I have read on global warming, I have come to the conclusion that no one really knows what is going on..

This is a topic that I feel kind of strongly about. and I dont do this too oftem so im gonna pull out my soapbox and hop up on it.

Yes, Man creates greenhouse gasses which does help Global warming. However, Global Warming will happen even if we don't do anything to contribute.

jpw starts here
I think that it is unfortunate that two issues relative to climate commonly get conflated.   I want to draw attention away from who or what is responsible and focus on the other issue I see.

There can be hardly any denying that there is a "recent" rise in temps.  Recent is a century in some conversations and 20_000 years in others, but temperature variations have always happened and now's no different.

So I argue that we need leadership that can address the issue "What are we humans going to do about this (almost undeniable) increase of temps?"  Whether or not it's the fault of economic actions, economy will have to respond to the shifts as they occur. 

I say let a leader start making *constructive* suggestions.  I don't care if the person offering guidance is a scientist, an economist, an entrepeneur, an office seeker, an editor, or an internet correspondent,  please let's start to hear how shall we think our way through this?
<<jpw ends here>>

Finish my Associates Degree at WWCC here in Rock Springs, and then I am off to Get a BS at the University of Wyoming in Geology.

Good luck
John

[Poppa_Zit]

  Oh well, we'll see and if necessary we Dutch will come to your country and claim a sizable piece of it, all 17 million of us. We will be preceded by a few hapless souls from those coconut palm islands from the Pacific on the last of their coconut palms used as floats.

You guys won't like it here. The "flesh trade" is illegal, and so is marijuana. 

[zardoz]

It is also a giant leap of faith to assume that the current trend is going to completely destroy the planet in a few dozen years. 

 

I do not think any rational person believes global climactic change will "completely destroy the world" (as you phrased it).  It will merely have a tremendous impact of our fragile societies, economies, and political situations.  That's all.

[zardoz]

I thought the biggest threat to the planet was cow farts, or was that beer farts? Can you say fart on this forum ?

I seems as though you can.  Fart.

[Randy Stahl]

I thought the biggest threat to the planet was cow farts, or was that beer farts? Can you say fart on this forum ?

[Anonymous]

 

 

The simple unavoidable facts are ...

 

FACT global atmospheric temperatures ARE rising

FACT global ocean temperatures ARE rising

FACT mountain glaciers worldwide ARE receding- fast

FACT polar ice caps ARE receding

 

[wallyworld]

I agree that measuring three times and cutting once is called for, however the melting of ice caps and glaciers and ten consistant years of recording breaking temperatures stand outside of either a political or scientific consensus. It's not a matter of belief as it is simple observation. It is not so much a disbelief of what instruments measure, as it is what it means. As far as the aforementioned sweeping changes, I have yet to hear of any magic bullets being offered by the scientific community because they themselves don't fully understand how it all fits together as a dynamic system. The cure may be worse than the disease, but an ailment is self evident.