BNSF Targets Bombing Run...

[JSGreen]

Now THAT would put  a new slant on  the War Bonnet.  Dont suppose they'd dare paint 'em as War Pumpkins, do ya? .

[Lyon_Wonder]

Maybe BNSF will acquire some of these:)

[JSGreen]

Latest update, from the Missoulian:  (only part of the article is presented here....)

Glacier National Park officials recommend alternative to bombing
By MICHAEL JAMISON of the Missoulian

WEST GLACIER - Glacier National Park officials have balked at a proposal by railroaders that would have protected train tracks from avalanches by bombing the park's wilderness backcountry.

Instead, park officials recommend that Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad build snowsheds over the line, noting that “historically, the railroad constructed snowsheds in this area to protect trains.”

That's according to a draft environmental impact statement released this week, in response to a BNSF request to conduct avalanche blasting within Glacier

. 
The controversial proposal drew fire from many critics, including Steve Thompson of the National Parks Conservation Association.

After an initial review of the park's snowshed recommendation, Thompson applauded the decision, saying “it's really very consistent with the Park Service mission.”

Gus Melonas, spokesman for BNSF, said the company had not yet had time to carefully analyze the lengthy document.

Clearly, however, the snowshed recommendation fell far short of the railroad's initial request.

[Anonymous]

As someone else mentioned, the use of artillery or air cannons to lob explosives onto dangerous spots is a well-established practice.  It has been done on ski slopes in Colorado and other parts of the country for years.  I do think that BNSF ought to pay the bill, but otherwise, there is no good reason for anybody to get too upset about it.

[trainboyH16-44]

Something similar is used in Roger's pass....which the CPR abandoned in 1916 after a particularely tragic avalanche. The trans-canada highway now goes through the pass, and with over 10 metres of annual snowfall, 105mm shells are regularely lobbed up onto avalanche slopes from concrete pads to stop monster avalanches like the one that happened in the 1910s, killing almost 100 people when it struck a passenger train...or the many others that wiped out trains and towns in the pass...
http://www.backcountrysafety.com/a_rogers-pass-avalanche-control.php

[Victrola1]

Think of it as a linear Grand Canyon of the North.

Stand on the hillside looking down at all those smaller than N gauge trains at the bottom of the ditch. Drainage may add to the view as pierced aquafiers drop thousands of feet to the trench running along side to Seattle.  

It would not take much more to make a sea level canal.

 

 

[SALfan]

Nukes are the answer.

I remember reading that serious study was given nearly 50 years ago to nuking a nice gentle grade from Los Angles to the east. Building the interstate highway system prompted the study, but the railroads were to be considered for the resulting right of way as well.

Edwin Teller was advocating nuclear fusion reaction as the agent to move mountains. The underground explosions would not send much fallout into the atmosphere, but the blast trailings and eventual corridor would be hotter than hell for a hell of a long time.

Too bad.

A nice clean explosive of such magnitutude would eliminate a lot of steep grades and high altitude passes. Imagine a "water level" route from Chicago to Seattle with only an even drop in evelation the length of the entire route from Lake Michigan to the Pacific Ocean.

Where is Dr. Strangelove now that we need him?

A couple of thousand trainloads of TNT would probably give the same result.  Think of it - years and years of spectacular blasting work.  TNT train derailments would probably be pretty rough, though. 

[Datafever]

How dull!  How boring!!!!

That's an appropriate description for a super-long tunnel...

Yes, I suppose that the drills would be dull after boring a super-long tunnel...

[blhanel]

How dull!  How boring!!!!

That's an appropriate description for a super-long tunnel...

[Datafever]

A nice clean explosive of such magnitutude would eliminate a lot of steep grades and high altitude passes. Imagine a "water level" route from Chicago to Seattle with only an even drop in evelation the length of the entire route from Lake Michigan to the Pacific Ocean.

How dull!  How boring!!!!

Gone would be the thrilling shots of a locomotive struggling to pull a train up a grade, steep canyon walls forming a picturesque background, a rushing river forming a sensational foreground...



So, when does construction start?  

[Victrola1]

Nukes are the answer.

I remember reading that serious study was given nearly 50 years ago to nuking a nice gentle grade from Los Angles to the east. Building the interstate highway system prompted the study, but the railroads were to be considered for the resulting right of way as well.

Edwin Teller was advocating nuclear fusion reaction as the agent to move mountains. The underground explosions would not send much fallout into the atmosphere, but the blast trailings and eventual corridor would be hotter than hell for a hell of a long time.

Too bad.

A nice clean explosive of such magnitutude would eliminate a lot of steep grades and high altitude passes. Imagine a "water level" route from Chicago to Seattle with only an even drop in evelation the length of the entire route from Lake Michigan to the Pacific Ocean.

Where is Dr. Strangelove now that we need him?

 

 

 

 

 

[Murphy Siding]

I was imagining a steely conductor peering intently into his Norden bombsight as the bomb bay doors swing open, on a B-24 high above, gaudily painted with BNSF logos. "Dispatcher..we are approaching target.." "Ten-four, 3715..you have clearance to drop payload, over.." I can imagine a bear looking up, thinking to himself, "What the ---!"

A B-24 in BNSF livery?  Now THAT I'd like to see!!

First, head over to the model airplane section of the hobby shop, then to the decals........

Mandrake, do you realize that 60% of your body consists of water?

I was aware of that, sir, yes.

We have to protect our precious bodily fluids,Group Captain, by whatever means possible.

I was thinking more along the lines of Catch-22!

[PBenham]

I was imagining a steely conductor peering intently into his Norden bombsight as the bomb bay doors swing open, on a B-24 high above, gaudily painted with BNSF logos. "Dispatcher..we are approaching target.." "Ten-four, 3715..you have clearance to drop payload, over.." I can imagine a bear looking up, thinking to himself, "What the ---!"

A B-24 in BNSF livery?  Now THAT I'd like to see!!

First, head over to the model airplane section of the hobby shop, then to the decals........

Mandrake, do you realize that 60% of your body consists of water?

I was aware of that, sir, yes.

We have to protect our precious bodily fluids,Group Captain, by whatever means possible.

[TomDiehl]

I was imagining a steely conductor peering intently into his Norden bombsight as the bomb bay doors swing open, on a B-24 high above, gaudily painted with BNSF logos. "Dispatcher..we are approaching target.." "Ten-four, 3715..you have clearance to drop payload, over.." I can imagine a bear looking up, thinking to himself, "What the ---!"

A B-24 in BNSF livery?  Now THAT I'd like to see!!

First, head over to the model airplane section of the hobby shop, then to the decals........

[CatFoodFlambe]

On the other hand,  would BNSF, as a private, for-profit business even be permitted to take measures to trigger controlled avalanches in a national park?

Methinks the point is that triggering an avalance on a schedule is preferable to just waiting for it to happen.  Even if you still have to dig out your main line, it's far better to do without having to look for people and equipment buried in the mess.

 If one cuts loose on its own accord when the "Empire Builder" happens to be winding its way through the area, can you image how many lawsuits would be filed charging BNSF and Amtrak with negligence in allowing a passenger train to traverse a area with a known avalanche risk?

Alternative - suspended passenger service through the area until "avalanche season" is over - or force Amtrak to pay for rebuilding and maintaining the snowsheds. 

 

 

[MichaelSol]

From the Missoula Independent, 10/5/06, p. 6.

Government Waste
by Paul Peters
BNSF bombs, you pay

Burlington Northern Santa Fe’s (BNSF) proposal to bomb the slopes of Glacier National Park (GNP) in order to control avalanches has irked more than a few environmentalists and park supporters. But a bill that would have federal subsidies pay for it has drawn the ire of a larger group, including the Bush administration.

In July, the Federal Land Recreational Visitor Protection Act, which allocates $75 million in grants toward avalanche control, passed as part of a Senate unanimous consent agenda. It is now before a House committee.

Language in the bill specifically allows money to be granted to “avalanche artillery users.”

The bill, according to an Oct. 1 Washington Post article, was written in part “by an avalanche expert who is a paid consultant to BNSF.”

The park is set to release a draft environmental impact statement on BNSF’s avalanche control request this month.

Local activists, including Steve Thompson, Glacier program manager for the National Parks Conservation Association, say that rather than bombing on the government dime, BNSF should pay to repair and expand snow sheds, which have protected railroad tracks in the past without impacting the park’s environment.

“Their reason not to [use snow sheds] is that it’s too expensive,” Thompson says. “If they can get the government to pay them to bomb Glacier, so much the better for BNSF.”

The irony in all this, Thompson notes, is that at a time when federal funding for national parks is being cut, the government is considering the possibility of paying to bomb them.

Deputy Under Secretary for Natural Resources and Environment David Tenny, who spoke to House members on behalf of the Bush administration, echoed Thompson’s frustration.

“At a time when we are giving priority to reducing the backlog of maintenance on National Forest System lands,” Tenny told House members, “we cannot afford to take on the new funding responsibilities under this grants program.”

Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste, a nonpartisan government watchdog group, says this is just the type of waste his group fights.

“They haven’t replaced the snow sheds, and now they want a handout? This is a good example of corporate welfare,” Schatz says.

[JSGreen]

I don't get where the snow will go.  So what if the avalanche does not happen when a train is not in the way, it will still end up coming down the mountain and onto the tracks and block the line, or am I missing something here.  Don't the snow sheds pass the snow over the tracks (and the trains). 

The theory is that you cause a mild avalanch under controlled conditions, when everybody is ready for it, rather than waiting for the snow loads to increase until they fall on their own schedule.  Kinda like the forest service doing a controlled burn, which always works great, right? 

[StillGrande]

In a rather limited area of the park, the most they'rer concerned about is waking up some Grizzlies?  The RRs been there 100+ years w/o snow sheds.  I'll bet the avalanche risk is only great on rare years.  If so, snow sheds would be an unwarranted expense. 

So on the other side of the argument, the railroads have been getting through the area with a few snow sheds and no artillery fire for 100+ years, and now they would rather declare war on the bears instead of replacing what they broke when their trains jump off their tracks? 

[StillGrande]

I don't get where the snow will go.  So what if the avalanche does not happen when a train is not in the way, it will still end up coming down the mountain and onto the tracks and block the line, or am I missing something here.  Don't the snow sheds pass the snow over the tracks (and the trains). 

[Chris30]

What do you think the odds are that when the first shelling occurs Canada will think the US is invading?? And while we're at it... little tunnel 14 over there, let's daylight it!

CC

[SALfan]

I was imagining a steely conductor peering intently into his Norden bombsight as the bomb bay doors swing open, on a B-24 high above, gaudily painted with BNSF logos. "Dispatcher..we are approaching target.." "Ten-four, 3715..you have clearance to drop payload, over.." I can imagine a bear looking up, thinking to himself, "What the ---!"

A B-24 in BNSF livery?  Now THAT I'd like to see!!

[wallyworld]

I was imagining a steely conductor peering intently into his Norden bombsight as the bomb bay doors swing open, on a B-24 high above, gaudily painted with BNSF logos. "Dispatcher..we are approaching target.." "Ten-four, 3715..you have clearance to drop payload, over.." I can imagine a bear looking up, thinking to himself, "What the ---!"

[fifedog]

Hey, maybe they'll accidentally uncover a rich oil deposit, and we can get back to paying $1.54 per gallon of gas....

[arbfbe]

The printed Missoulian article was much longer and far more thorough than the excerpt posted here.

I think the BNSF can afford to pay their own way here and since this is pristine wilderness area I believe they can find other methods of avalanche control other than lobbing ordinance that way.  No firearms and artillery do not make me nervous, I just think there are better ways for the BNSF to deal with this situation.  This is not a one time event, the avalanches happen every year.  The avalanche fields are pretty dramatically marked so it should not be difficult to determine where to locate the snow sheds.  Start by repairing the ones which were never replaced after a fire.  Use an updated design out of concrete to eliminate the support pillars between the mainlines and build them for the long term, leave the shelling out of the picture. 

[SALfan]

Oh for pity's sake!!! The weenies whining about the use of artillery are the same ones that quiver in fear any time they hear about an honest citizen having a gun, or any time local government sprays for mosquitoes, or any of a million harmless things go on.  USDA-Forest Service used 90mm antiaircraft guns for avalanche control for decades without any significant problems, at least AFAIK.  The wildlife will be skittish for the first month or so the shelling is done, then they'll figure out that the noise doesn't represent a danger to them and go on about their business.

I do have a problem with the funds coming out of the Park Service budget.  The businesses that benefit should have to pay the costs of the program, and if they don't like it let them do their own avalanche control.

[JSGreen]

a few more details....from the Missoulian...

Park Service unhappy with plan to shift funds to howitzer shelling
By MICHAEL JAMISON of the Missoulian

WEST GLACIER - For several years now, railroaders have wanted to shell Glacier National Park's wilderness with howitzers, hoping to blast potential avalanches away from above their increasingly busy tracks.

Now, legislation moving through Congress could help make that happen - and could even compel the National Park Service to pay for the bombing.

“This (proposal) would take the money directly out of the Park Service budget,” said Steve Thompson, Glacier program manager for the National Parks Conservation Association. “Everyone knows they can't afford that.”

Already, estimates place the annual budgeting shortfall in national parks at about $800 million. It is a system, all agree, with little to spare.

The proposed legislation - already passed through the U.S. Senate and now working its way through the House with help from two key Alaska Republicans - seeks to “reduce the risks from and mitigate the effects of avalanches on recreational users of public lands.”

It's aimed at ski areas and highways, any busy corridor on public lands.

But the biggest beneficiaries, Thompson said, are railroads. In fact, the legislation was written, partly, by David Hamre, an avalanche expert who works for the Alaska Railroad Corp.

[MStLfan]

I think the Swiss have been using mortars for decades. The trick is to trigger a small avalanche before there are dangerous buildups because of the properties of different kinds of snow.

I can understand why BNSF does not want to rebuild some sheds, particularly if the chance of an avalanche is 1 in 20 years or so.

By the way, what is the size of a mortar tube?

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[arbfbe]

Also note that the $75 million in the budget comes out of the NPS funds.  Money that would normally be spent to operate and improve the park system will be redirected to keeping the BNSF tracks open in the winter at taxpayer expense.

I think we should vote no on this idea for a number of reasons.  Particularly since BN and BNSF have defered maintenance on the sheds for decades, they have not replaced damaged sheds and they have not built any new sheds to reflect changing snow accumulation patterns.

 

[greyhounds]

I have never heard of 105mm artillery being used for avalanche control... Hmmmm that might be fun to watch.  They could used proximity rounds, so there isn't much in the way of duds... Can they use DPICM? or is that available in a small caliber like 105mm? (in the US Military, 105mm is considered "light" artillery, 155mm is "medium"... and heavy is the MLRS)

I know DPICM is used as an anti-armor, and area denial, or anti-personnel, but couldn't the charges be altered so they aren't flinging fragments everywhere??? Oh, well.... just food for thought.. 

Yeah, I'd pay to watch that.

As I understand things, they haven't bothered to develop anything fancy for artillery smaller than the 155's.  No guidance or anything.  Even the guided mortars are 120mm.  Current problem with the guided 155 shells is that they don't pick up the GPS signal about 5% of the time.  So they gotta' make sure that if it doesn't get guidance it doesn't hit the school, hospital, dwelling, whatever.  This is why they are not being used in Iraq.

This is not a problem shooting at the side of a mountain.

This is absolutely nothing other than setting off small avelanches with explosives in order to prevent big avelanches.  This is a common practice that is at least decades old.  The people who are objecting are looking for a cause to give meaning to their lives.  The shell they shoot will not contain shapnel.