Photographer vs. 'Security' people

[tree68]

Seriously, that "Photographer's Rights" document is NOT a legal document and waiving it in someone's face during a confrontation won't intimidate anyone with a well-developed brain. Especially if they actually do have some sort of authority over the area in question -- i.e., where you are railfanning.

Anyone who has taken time to read it carefully will notice that it is intentionally worded to avoid being definitive. It is anything but that, and couches its "general" responsibility very well. It is meant only as a "general" set of guidelines and certainly not an interpretation of any law.

I would think that it's not as likely that you'll have a confrontation with a person with a well-developed brain - and if they do have said brain, they may even take the time to read it.  If the photog is, indeed, in the wrong (the "Posted" sign was behind a bush, or not...), then I'm sure the person of authority will point that out and ask them to leave again.  And at that point, the railfan should leave.  

The subject document should serve to debunk the irrational fears of certain people of the "you can't take any pictures here - haven't you heard of 9/11?" ilk.  It also gives you time to get out your cell phone, which, as Z points out, will serve to seal the deal if their gig is all bravado.

If the railfan/photographer is standing on private property, loudly proclaiming his rights while waving the paper around, well, he deserves what he gets.

On the other hand, having a letter of permission from the company in question can do a lot to take the wind out of their sails, too.

[Philcal]

Dan, I'm a retired Sergeant from the Alabama Department of Public Safety, and I really believe you did the right thing. Unfortunately, a whole lot of common sense has gone out the window since 9/11.Don Phillips had quite a bit to say about this very  issue in this month's Trains. You are perfectly within your rights to demand ID from any person in civilian clothes who claims to be a Peace Officer. Railroad Police, if not in uniform will readily identify themselves to you, as will any Police Officer  not in uniform.  I can only speak for the State of Alabama, but in this state, private security guards do not have any type of police authority. At the end of the day, as long as you're not trespassing,as long as you're on public property, or private private property, where the public is admittted as a matter of right and custom,your ability to take pictures is limited only by the amount of film you have brought with you. Happy railfanning!!

[zardoz]

Seriously, that "Photographer's Rights" document is NOT a legal document and waiving it in someone's face during a confrontation won't intimidate anyone with a well-developed brain. Especially if they actually do have some sort of authority over the area in question -- i.e., where you are railfanning.

Anyone who has taken time to read it carefully will notice that it is intentionally worded to avoid being definitive. It is anything but that, and couches its "general" responsibility very well. It is meant only as a "general" set of guidelines and certainly not an interpretation of any law.

I would think that it's not as likely that you'll have a confrontation with a person with a well-developed brain - and if they do have said brain, they may even take the time to read it.  If the photog is, indeed, in the wrong (the "Posted" sign was behind a bush, or not...), then I'm sure the person of authority will point that out and ask them to leave again.  And at that point, the railfan should leave.  

The subject document should serve to debunk the irrational fears of certain people of the "you can't take any pictures here - haven't you heard of 9/11?" ilk.  It also gives you time to get out your cell phone, which, as Z points out, will serve to seal the deal if their gig is all bravado.

If the railfan/photographer is standing on private property, loudly proclaiming his rights while waving the paper around, well, he deserves what he gets.

On the other hand, having a letter of permission from the company in question can do a lot to take the wind out of their sails, too.

Thanks, tree68.  At least YOU understood my approach to this issue.

And Poppa, it is not about "bravado", it is about being tired of dealing with these self-appointed saviours of the world.

[edblysard]

Well,

Yesterday’s job briefing included having to watch a short video issued by UP on post 9/11 Haz mat safety.

I am sure the UP guys here already have seen it.

To keep it short and sweet, the legal department had to have edited the narration…it gets close, but not quite over the line of telling you that the Bill of Rights should be ignored, and anyone that you (the employee) think of as suspicious in any way should be either hassled till they leave or reported to the special agents or police.

Some what of a KGB versus Her Majesties Secret Service spoof was included.

A man and his girlfriend were shown eating in a restaurant, he an obvious railroad employee.

 They were discussing his day at work, and seated at the next table was a man of obvious Middle Eastern descent, fugitively taking notes about the couple’s conversation.

The couple was bright, white and uptight looking, the “bad” guy was as swarthy and evil looking as possible, short of putting him in a turban and robes, the “good” versus “bad” was as over done as possible.

The narrator is, of course warning the viewers not to discuss any aspect of their job “with those that do not have “a need to know” along with a stiff warning to report anyone you know who does discuss their railroad job with others.

 

The video even included a thinly veiled threat not to participate in any forums or on line discussions about any aspect of railroad business.

It implied they (UP) were monitoring such activity by showing a TM or operating officer reading a computer screen and taking notes on a legal pad.

 

My favorite was a section showing a UP employee forcing a pair of railfans to leave, even though it was obvious they were standing on a public street/sidewalk taking photos.

The narrator even tells the viewers to report anyone taking photos, regardless of where they are or what, if any threat they seem to pose.

If anyone ask you a question about your railroad, you are supposed to report them.

 

Overall, the entire short was, in my opinion, a carefully worded threat towards railroad employees, in that it encourages them to disregard the Bill of Rights, (better to be safe than sorry is the tone) and it threatens them if they discuss their job in any public way.

Pretty Draconian measures, yes?

 

Now, any railroader with more that two working brain cells can stand in his rail yard, take a good look at any public street near there, and realize that any terrorist can drive up, get out of his car, take the RPG out of the trunk and pretty much blast away at will.

 

Our Homeland Security folks still present the threat to the American public with the slant that these guys want to commit a act of terror and then escape…wrong of course.

Dieing in the service of their cause is a big time honor for these folks, which is why all the fences, all the check points, and the counter espionage mumbo jumbo will fail.

They have no problem walking up to their target with a bomb strapped to their body and blowing themselves and their target up.

 

Trying to clamp a lid on information is pretty useless…unless they have a contact inside a railroad, they can’t really find or track any specific railcar to attack, and even then, it wouldn’t take much to hack into a shippers on line request.

 

Barring that, all they have to do is time it so a train is passing a public spot, and pick the haz mat car of their choice.

 

The entire theme of the short was pretty much, “If we all work as a team, we can all be a paranoid as possible, and make America safe again”…

 

UP, keeping America scared for the future….

 

(and by the way, our TM that was forcd to show us this short was as POed as I was, he too thinks the Bill of Rights is one of the only things that seperates us from them, and he made it clear he was showing us this only because he was ordered to.)

[zardoz]

Well,

Yesterday’s job briefing included having to watch a short video issued by UP on post 9/11 Haz mat safety.

................... 

UP, keeping America scared for the future….

It would seem as though the UP is trying to alienate as many railfans as possible. 

I guess next time I see someone stealing from the UP yard near my house, or see anyone suspicious on or near the tracks, I will NOT report it, due to fear that the UP Nazi's will question ME for paying attention to their property.

Ed, thanks for making us aware.  ===========================================================

I hope someone from the UP (or maybe Ed) will bring this to the attention of Trains columnist Don Phillips.  I would love to read his take on this.

.

[spbed]

You did not say if you ever asked them for there ID. That would have been question #1 ti me  

 

 

Way to go CNW 6000!!!!!!

First, let me say that I always abide by the law regarding tresspassing when I am out photographing.

Every time one of these schmucks that watches way too much Fox "news" gets in my face about photgraphing anything, the VERY FIRST thing I do is grab my copy of the Photographer's Rights and suggest to them that they read it while I am calling the police.  I tell them "If you are in the right, I will go to jail, although I'm not sure what offense you would be charging me with, but if you are in the wrong, YOU will go to jail for harassment and coercion". 

None of them, and I mean NO ONE, has ever stayed long enough for me to complete the call.

 

For those of you who do not have a copy of the Photographer's Rights: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

[Poppa_Zit]

Thanks, tree68.  At least YOU understood my approach to this issue.

And Poppa, it is not about "bravado", it is about being tired of dealing with these self-appointed saviours of the world.

You know I understood your approach. But I do appreciate sarcasm.

I didn't realize you have been bothered by so many of these "self-appointed saviours of the world" to the point where you have become so tired of dealing with them. Sorry.

I guess I'm lucky. I live in the railroad criss-crossed Chicago area and take my cameras out to photograph trains at least two days a week. Strange, but in all these years I have only been approached by two of your so-called "SASOTWs." One was very polite, and after I told him what I was doing he let me continue. The other was a senior agent for BNSF. We had a nice 20-minute chat about goofy foamers, which ended with him giving me several nice BNSF calendars.

I've read the horror stories others have told here. From those accounts, and from your report of being tired of dealing with these people (I assume in SE Wisconsin), I shall surmise that security people tend to be more Fife-like in small towns and rural areas. Just the opposite of what I would have expected.

On the other hand, this reminds me of the difference in passing through security at different-sized airports. The big airports like O'Hare, Midway, Orlando, Atlanta Hartsfield, LaGuardia, Kennedy... all get you through in reasonably good time with a moderate search. But in smaller airports that see very little air traffic -- Manchester NH, Sarasota, White Plains NY, -- where they have very few flights each day, the security people are "extremely and overly meticulous" to the point of being almost ridiculous -- where they check everything -- behind your ears, under each fingernail, etc. Because they really do not have much else to do to keep them busy.

Could the mentality be the same with security people in small towns and rural areas?                                     

[CNW 6000]

spbed-I did ask them for their ID's.  None were presented.

[DPD1]

I don't know. I think if security showed up in a GEO I would be to busy laughing to do anything else.

BTW- Orange lightbars work too.

There's a couple gov services out here in CA that use them... But sounds to me like they were full of it. Referring to themselves as peace officers, but refusing to identify themselves? I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turned out to be some neighborhood watch knuckle heads or something. Some of the people that get involved with organizations like that have some serious mental issues. My home was damaged during the Northridge quake... That morning, everybody on the street kind of went into a collective neighbor help neighbor mode, so a lot of us left our doors ajar, due to the fact that neighbors were coming and going to check on each other. While I'm in the back, I all of the sudden hear people talking in my living room... I walk in to find three older people that I had never seen before standing there. Before I could say anything, one of them asks me if my gas is turned off. I said "who the h&ll are you???" Turns out they were some neighbor hood watch nuts and decided that they apparently had a right to just walk into people's houses. I told them to get the h*ll out before I called the cops and had them arrested, and said they're lucky they weren't shot for being looters.

Dave
http://www.dpdproductions.com
- Featuring the TrainTenna Railroad Radio Antennas -

[Chris30]

Ok, A show of hands... How many people have heard "Geo Tracker", "a pair of ladies (mid 40's) in plainclothes" and "high speed pursuit" used in the same sentence before???  Maybe CNW6000 should have taken there picture... you know, for co-employees of the month.

CC

[SFbrkmn]

I am waiting for the day when someone who lives next to the trks and photographs trains because they enjoy doing so is approached by the law stating no more--even though its on private personal property. One of these days it will happen and that will be so interesting.

[zardoz]

Thanks, tree68.  At least YOU understood my approach to this issue.

And Poppa, it is not about "bravado", it is about being tired of dealing with these self-appointed saviours of the world.

You know I understood your approach. But I do appreciate sarcasm.

I didn't realize you have been bothered by so many of these "self-appointed saviours of the world" to the point where you have become so tired of dealing with them. Sorry.

I guess I'm lucky. I live in the railroad criss-crossed Chicago area and take my cameras out to photograph trains at least two days a week. Strange, but in all these years I have only been approached by two of your so-called "SASOTWs." One was very polite, and after I told him what I was doing he let me continue. The other was a senior agent for BNSF. We had a nice 20-minute chat about goofy foamers, which ended with him giving me several nice BNSF calendars.

I've read the horror stories others have told here. From those accounts, and from your report of being tired of dealing with these people (I assume in SE Wisconsin), I shall surmise that security people tend to be more Fife-like in small towns and rural areas. Just the opposite of what I would have expected.

On the other hand, this reminds me of the difference in passing through security at different-sized airports. The big airports like O'Hare, Midway, Orlando, Atlanta Hartsfield, LaGuardia, Kennedy... all get you through in reasonably good time with a moderate search. But in smaller airports that see very little air traffic -- Manchester NH, Sarasota, White Plains NY, -- where they have very few flights each day, the security people are "extremely and overly meticulous" to the point of being almost ridiculous -- where they check everything -- behind your ears, under each fingernail, etc. Because they really do not have much else to do to keep them busy.

Could the mentality be the same with security people in small towns and rural areas?                                     

Poppa,

You make a good point, and you are correct (at least regarding my experiences).  Every time I was bothered, it was in, as you say, a small town or rural area.  Perhaps because, like you, I expect security to be greater in urban areas, I find the hassle to be more unwarranted.  And being an extremely white male in my early 50's, I would think the Barney Fife-types of police and wannabe security morons would use what few brains they have and think for a moment.  And let me repeat: I always stay on public property and NEVER trespass, so these 'local yokels' have no cause of justification to question me. 

Ironically, I find it much less offensive being questioning by real police, than the questioning by those SASOTW's; they really trip my trigger.  With the cops I understand that it is their job to question the unusual.  But the Fox and/or CNN "news" watchers ought to just get a life of their own.

[eolafan]

Nothing but "rent-a-cops" on a serious power trip...let it go...you did the right thing by callind the REAL cops.

[Poppa_Zit]

Thanks, tree68.  At least YOU understood my approach to this issue.

And Poppa, it is not about "bravado", it is about being tired of dealing with these self-appointed saviours of the world.

You know I understood your approach. But I do appreciate sarcasm.

I didn't realize you have been bothered by so many of these "self-appointed saviours of the world" to the point where you have become so tired of dealing with them. Sorry.

I guess I'm lucky. I live in the railroad criss-crossed Chicago area and take my cameras out to photograph trains at least two days a week. Strange, but in all these years I have only been approached by two of your so-called "SASOTWs." One was very polite, and after I told him what I was doing he let me continue. The other was a senior agent for BNSF. We had a nice 20-minute chat about goofy foamers, which ended with him giving me several nice BNSF calendars.

I've read the horror stories others have told here. From those accounts, and from your report of being tired of dealing with these people (I assume in SE Wisconsin), I shall surmise that security people tend to be more Fife-like in small towns and rural areas. Just the opposite of what I would have expected.

On the other hand, this reminds me of the difference in passing through security at different-sized airports. The big airports like O'Hare, Midway, Orlando, Atlanta Hartsfield, LaGuardia, Kennedy... all get you through in reasonably good time with a moderate search. But in smaller airports that see very little air traffic -- Manchester NH, Sarasota, White Plains NY, -- where they have very few flights each day, the security people are "extremely and overly meticulous" to the point of being almost ridiculous -- where they check everything -- behind your ears, under each fingernail, etc. Because they really do not have much else to do to keep them busy.

Could the mentality be the same with security people in small towns and rural areas?                                     

Poppa,

You make a good point, and you are correct (at least regarding my experiences).  Every time I was bothered, it was in, as you say, a small town or rural area.  Perhaps because, like you, I expect security to be greater in urban areas, I find the hassle to be more unwarranted.  And being an extremely white male in my early 50's, I would think the Barney Fife-types of police and wannabe security morons would use what few brains they have and think for a moment.  And let me repeat: I always stay on public property and NEVER trespass, so these 'local yokels' have no cause of justification to question me. 

Ironically, he questioning by the police I find much less offensive than the questioning by those SASOTW's; they really trip my trigger.  The cops I understand that it is their job to question the unusual.  But the Fox and/or CNN "news" watchers ought to just get a life of their own.

Hmmm. Maybe we ARE onto something here. Maybe some other members will post their thoughts so we can get a wider perspective.

Oh, we did have those overzealous Metra cops give those guys on the Morton Grove train station platform a hard time in early 2005, but Metra ended up isuing a public apology.

Other than that, I really haven't heard any horror stories about problems with security officers near tracks anywhere in Chicago's urban/industrialized areas.

Oh, yeah. There was that video awhile back of an angry railroad cop of some kind accosting the two foamers at Brighton Crossing, but they were clearly trespassing and thus I have absolutely no sympathy for their kind.

You trespass, and you deserve what you get.

[CNW 6000]

Exactly, trespassing does no good.  This afternoon I was shooting in Neenah, WI near the yard.  In fact within sight of the yard office.  I was on a public street and stayed near my truck.  Because I was sure I was on public property I took some shots.  After a while I happened to see come CN crewmen walking on the sidewalk.  They spotted me and walked over.  I said hi and we started to talk as they were on a break.  In the course of our 5 minute talk they told me some spots that were public but didn't appear to be and when to sit there to get good action shots.  They asked in return that I report anything suspicious I saw to their office.  A little give and take I guess.  To me that sounded like a fair deal.  I appreciate all of your support from my initial post.  There's been some interesting stories here.

[Goober]

Greetings CNW 6000;
Anything new to report on this situation?
Happy picture taking.

Jared

[CNW 6000]

Nothing that'd impress you.  I've been back to that facility and shot some pics of trains there without incident.  I did even get the chance to speak to one of the engineers on the train while he waited to unload.  He gave me some more ideas of places to shoot from.  The staff of the plant usually waves at me.  I was invited in once but didn't have time to go.

The 'security' guards wer contacted by police and cited for impersonation of a police officer.  Apparently they plea bargained their case and got a wimpy judge.  They got the fine and 16 months probation.  Violation of that means they're going to the county slammer for 5 years.

[zardoz]

The 'security' guards wer contacted by police and cited for impersonation of a police officer.  Apparently they plea bargained their case and got a wimpy judge.  They got the fine and 16 months probation.  Violation of that means they're going to the county slammer for 5 years.