Today I was sitting in my truck legally parked on the side of a city street. I was taking pictures of a train doing some switching when a Geo Tracker pulled up behind me. There were no markings of any kind on it. Thinking nothing of that because there are businesses on the other side of the street I paid no attention when someone stepped out. A few seconds later a pair of ladies (mid 40's) in plainclothes is standing by my door.
They said "We're from "X" company security and need to see your ID. You can't take pictures of the train you're watching because it's servicing a local industry." That the train, at the moment behind vegetation, wasn't in my field of view didn't matter apparently. Nor was it my point. I explained that "I'm waiting for the train to be in the open, away from any buildings for a clear field of view." They both repeated that "You can't take pictures of any trains or industries in the area because of those 9/11security concerns, you know". I said "I wasn't taking pictures of any industry, just the train. I'm also on public property and have a right to be here." I asked them for their names and ID's which they refused to show me. They kept repeating that I can't take any pictures of trains or industries and then started saying they'd have the PD called and I'd be questioned/arrested for "resisting a peace officer". I suggested "How about I call them and they see who you are? I'm in my personal vehicle and in a public place breaking no law. I'm not leaving." They got back in their vehicle and started apparently talking on a cell phone and a portable radio. The train came in the open and I took my pictures.
I then called the PD and they said they weren't aware of any law but they'd send an officer by to see what was going on. Five minutes later the Tracker left. A couple minutes later the PD showed up. I gave a statement to the officer. He said he wasn't aware of any laws regarding photography in the area and called in to HQ. They couldn't find any reference to anything restricting photos.
Pretty sad, huh?
Dan
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Hey Dan, Way to go!!!!! Stand up for your rights. I would say you took the right course of action. Here's to ya !!!!
Chad, Not afraid !!!!
Well, the fact that they refused to show your their identification upon request says volumes.
So you called the police on THEM. Good for you!
And might I add that their telling you that you would "be questioned/arrested for 'resisting a peace officer'" unless you complied probably constitutes impersonating a police officer on their part. Because industrial security people have no authority on public property.
Poppa_Zit wrote: Well, the fact that they refused to show your their identification upon request says volumes. So you called the police on THEM. Good for you! And might I add that their telling you that you would "be questioned/arrested for 'resisting a peace officer'" unless you complied probably constitutes impersonating a police officer on their part. Because industrial security people have no authority on public property.
That's what I was thinking. I wrote down a license plate number and gave the officer all of that info. No idea where that'll lead to.
I was hoping to get a pic of the boxcars with shackles....
CNW 6000 wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: Well, the fact that they refused to show your their identification upon request says volumes. So you called the police on THEM. Good for you! And might I add that their telling you that you would "be questioned/arrested for 'resisting a peace officer'" unless you complied probably constitutes impersonating a police officer on their part. Because industrial security people have no authority on public property. That's what I was thinking. I wrote down a license plate number and gave the officer all of that info. No idea where that'll lead to. I was hoping to get a pic of the boxcars with shackles....
Make sure you follow this up with the police. Don't make yourself into a pest, but DO follow it up until you get an acceptable answer.
PBenham wrote:I would have called 911 right then, while they were there and waited for their response! Here in Buffalo, NYSSR this tactic is NOT recommended since the BPD is likely to join suspicious security people harassing you!
Just curious. I have seen many of your postings, a littany of vitriolic complaints about anything political/social in your locale.
You say you live in Buffalo. Canada is a bicycle ride away. If things are really so bad in the New York "Soviet Socialist Republic" as you call it -- why don't you just move to Canada? Or would you feel lost if there was nothing to complain about?
Poppa_Zit wrote: PBenham wrote:I would have called 911 right then, while they were there and waited for their response! Here in Buffalo, NYSSR this tactic is NOT recommended since the BPD is likely to join suspicious security people harassing you! Just curious. I have seen many of your postings, a littany of vitriolic complaints about anything political/social in your locale. You say you live in Buffalo. Canada is a bicycle ride away. If things are really so bad in the New York "Soviet Socialist Republic" as you call it -- why don't you just move to Canada? Or would you feel lost if there was nothing to complain about?
Well, first of all, they probably wouldn't have bothered me because I have a red lightbar on my truck.
That said, I think the first thing I would have asked was to see some ID. Picking up the cell phone and dialing 9-1-1 would probably been a close second, although if I was in my home county, I would have dialed the "private" number we in the fire service have to the 9-1-1 center. I know most of those people....
Good move, and as was suggested, follow it up, but don't be a pest - you aren't pressing charges, after all.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I don't know. I think if security showed up in a GEO I would be to busy laughing to do anything else.
BTW- Orange lightbars work too.
Dan:
You did the right thing. I can't imagine any security officer using a Geo Tracker especially one without emergency lights on the roof, on the dashboard, or in the grille. Did you get their license plate number?
For Poppa Zit: Some plant security officers may be deputized law enforcement officers, but when they confront you on public property they have to show a badge or an ID.
chad thomas wrote: I don't know. I think if security showed up in a GEO I would be to busy laughing to do anything else. BTW- Orange lightbars work too.
I'd be checking for a riot shotgun and a light bar on that metro, too!
I wonder if that is the police issue GEO with the souped up V8 and the dual exhaust?
I am absolutely sure that I would wet my pants laughing at someone pulling me over in a Metro attempting to confront me about taking pictures.
Seriously kudos to CNW 6000. You did the right thing! Stupidity like that needs to be called on the carpet in a big way!
Way to go CNW 6000!!!!!!
First, let me say that I always abide by the law regarding tresspassing when I am out photographing.
Every time one of these schmucks that watches way too much Fox "news" gets in my face about photgraphing anything, the VERY FIRST thing I do is grab my copy of the Photographer's Rights and suggest to them that they read it while I am calling the police. I tell them "If you are in the right, I will go to jail, although I'm not sure what offense you would be charging me with, but if you are in the wrong, YOU will go to jail for harassment and coercion".
None of them, and I mean NO ONE, has ever stayed long enough for me to complete the call.
For those of you who do not have a copy of the Photographer's Rights: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
Good Job,CNW 6000!Put 'em in their place!
I haven't heard of any instances here in the Cedar Rapids area,but my son and I do go out railfanning the U.P. and Crandic.We don't take pictures,but do write down engine numbers to see how many former CNW units we spot.We haven't been bothered,but I'm wondering if it's a matter of time.One thing we do is usually park at one of the nature trail lots near the mainline away from any industry(not much along the UP in this area anyway).
I'm concerned as to why law enforcement and security agencies are so concerned about railfans and not paying more attention to who's a raghead and who's not.My first question would be 'Do I look like a dang raghead to you?' I can prove my citizenship to anyone who wants to question it.If they are so concerned about security,then why aren't the borders closed and immigration enforced(we don't need any new laws,just enforce the ones already on the books)!Next,U.S. citizens don't need neo-guestapo law enforcement and their facist tactics stepping on our Constitutional rights of Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.As you can tell,I don't believe in 'political correctness' or spineless people hiding behind curtains(iron or otherwise)reporting every little thing their neighbors are doing.This isn't Nazi Germany or 1933.
Anyway,enough of my soapbox.Enjoy your hobby safely,respectfully,and without fear.
Have a good one.
Bill B Marion,Iowa
A follow up:
I contacted the company whom these people claimed to be from. They do work there but aren't security personnel. I spoke with their supervisor and informed them of what happened and that the PD is investigating. He said he'd take disciplinary action against them and apologized on behalf of the company. Even better, he invited me to photograph trains at their facility and said he'd give me written permission in case of further issues.
The PD detective assigned to the case contacted me this morning. The department will likely pursue something with them but he couldn't speculate what that would be as of yet but he'd keep me informed.
zardoz wrote: Way to go CNW 6000!!!!!! First, let me say that I always abide by the law regarding tresspassing when I am out photographing. Every time one of these schmucks that watches way too much Fox "news" gets in my face about photgraphing anything, the VERY FIRST thing I do is grab my copy of the Photographer's Rights and suggest to them that they read it while I am calling the police. I tell them "If you are in the right, I will go to jail, although I'm not sure what offense you would be charging me with, but if you are in the wrong, YOU will go to jail for harassment and coercion". None of them, and I mean NO ONE, has ever stayed long enough for me to complete the call. For those of you who do not have a copy of the Photographer's Rights: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
The only mopes that ever bother me while I'm out making train pictures while on public property are those who watch CNN to excess. They tell me to leave the area because such activities are contributing to global warming, loss of wildlife habitat, the woes of the poor, the destruction of rain forests, overfishing ocean fisheries and the imbalance in world trade.
I usually have coffee and greasy doughnuts with the Fox News watchers.
Seriously, that "Photographer's Rights" document is NOT a legal document and waiving it in someone's face during a confrontation won't intimidate anyone with a well-developed brain. Especially if they actually do have some sort of authority over the area in question -- i.e., where you are railfanning.
Anyone who has taken time to read it carefully will notice that it is intentionally worded to avoid being definitive. It is anything but that, and couches its "general" responsibility very well. It is meant only as a "general" set of guidelines and certainly not an interpretation of any law.
Methinks it might be dangerous for any railfan to use this document to stoke their bravado.
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
PBenham wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: PBenham wrote:I would have called 911 right then, while they were there and waited for their response! Here in Buffalo, NYSSR this tactic is NOT recommended since the BPD is likely to join suspicious security people harassing you! Just curious. I have seen many of your postings, a littany of vitriolic complaints about anything political/social in your locale. You say you live in Buffalo. Canada is a bicycle ride away. If things are really so bad in the New York "Soviet Socialist Republic" as you call it -- why don't you just move to Canada? Or would you feel lost if there was nothing to complain about? Believe it or not, it's worse there! The REAL reason I can't go to Canada? I am a white guy! They want Pakistanis, Indians (Hindu variety, not "Indigenous Canadians"-I can't make that one up!)and people too risky to be allowed into the US, until they sneak in along the border, that is. The last thing Canada wants is a white male whose skills do not materially aid the growth of ! New York acts like a soviet socialist republic, and that's what I'll call it until Poppa, be glad you do not live here!!
Yes, I am very glad I do not live where you live.
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
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