For anyone in or around Pottstown PA!

[Modelcar]

...Understand all you have said and it is sensible.....Fact is, if a train is moving through a town or city and it must stop because of expired work time.....Anyone surely will agree, don't stop it across a crossing or even close enough to allow the gates to remain down to disrupt traffic, emergency or not...Clear the crossing.

[Modelcar]

...Understand all you have said and it is sensible.....Fact is, if a train is moving through a town or city and it must stop because of expired work time.....Anyone surely will agree, don't stop it across a crossing or even close enough to allow the gates to remain down to disrupt traffic, emergency or not...Clear the crossing.

[Anonymous]

It could be the engineer stopped a little long, over the crossing circuit. He doesn't want to back up over crossings behind him or pedestrians on the track if he can't see. There's no time to protect the rear, so he stays put. We aren't even supposed to use the radio after we have outlawed. That might be interpreted as "performing duty. If the police were directing traffic around him, he wasn't blocking emergency vehicles. And probably there weren't any Federals around, but just the same, YOU pay the fines if you knowingly violate the law. Help yourself...

[Anonymous]

It could be the engineer stopped a little long, over the crossing circuit. He doesn't want to back up over crossings behind him or pedestrians on the track if he can't see. There's no time to protect the rear, so he stays put. We aren't even supposed to use the radio after we have outlawed. That might be interpreted as "performing duty. If the police were directing traffic around him, he wasn't blocking emergency vehicles. And probably there weren't any Federals around, but just the same, YOU pay the fines if you knowingly violate the law. Help yourself...

[Mookie]

Skeets - my tiara is evidently hanging in the trains "Magee's Closet". It was a little gaudy anyway. But I still think the green was pretty. Think emeralds!

Going to go look at the thread you mentioned. And I think you are a little ornery like Da Mook is.... it is all good!

For the rest - I know we have an ordinance here in Lincoln - that a train shall not block the crossing for more than 10 min. Since the train runs right through the heart of the university parking and used to run through a lot of residentials, it was a good law. And the CBQ, BN and BNSF have been pretty good about observing it. There is a little overtime sometimes involved, but mostly, they get things moving out of the way. And if the engine wasn't blocking the crossing, why didn't someone open the gates? Were they so far out in the boonies, that no one from either maintenance or yard master - someone couldn't come out and lift the gates. If maintenance isn't closer than that, they have real problems in that town. My understanding is a key on the engine will do it. Can't the yardmaster do it?

Mookie

[Mookie]

Skeets - my tiara is evidently hanging in the trains "Magee's Closet". It was a little gaudy anyway. But I still think the green was pretty. Think emeralds!

Going to go look at the thread you mentioned. And I think you are a little ornery like Da Mook is.... it is all good!

For the rest - I know we have an ordinance here in Lincoln - that a train shall not block the crossing for more than 10 min. Since the train runs right through the heart of the university parking and used to run through a lot of residentials, it was a good law. And the CBQ, BN and BNSF have been pretty good about observing it. There is a little overtime sometimes involved, but mostly, they get things moving out of the way. And if the engine wasn't blocking the crossing, why didn't someone open the gates? Were they so far out in the boonies, that no one from either maintenance or yard master - someone couldn't come out and lift the gates. If maintenance isn't closer than that, they have real problems in that town. My understanding is a key on the engine will do it. Can't the yardmaster do it?

Mookie

[dharmon]

My "tirade" was not directed at this incident or at this or any crew. What I was saying that the RR (not the crew) should be liable for dispatching a crew if they cannot accompli***he task without violating crew day. If they could have reasonably accomplished the job in the timeframe, but because of unforseen circumsatnces can't, then prudence would dictate that they land at the nearest suitable airfield (in this case siding, yard, etc).....not in the middle of town, where there may exist a greater than average chance of causing a roadway to blocked, by the train itself or by gates.

Apparently the rules do not account for this, I presume to keep the RRs from abusing the crews.

Hey, I'm with you guys......I ain't the artist formerly known as Missouri

[dharmon]

My "tirade" was not directed at this incident or at this or any crew. What I was saying that the RR (not the crew) should be liable for dispatching a crew if they cannot accompli***he task without violating crew day. If they could have reasonably accomplished the job in the timeframe, but because of unforseen circumsatnces can't, then prudence would dictate that they land at the nearest suitable airfield (in this case siding, yard, etc).....not in the middle of town, where there may exist a greater than average chance of causing a roadway to blocked, by the train itself or by gates.

Apparently the rules do not account for this, I presume to keep the RRs from abusing the crews.

Hey, I'm with you guys......I ain't the artist formerly known as Missouri

[edblysard]

Hi Dan,
The hours of service law is a two edged sword.
It was put in place not only to prevent the carrier from abusing crews, but because there are some railroaders who would work 24 hours at a pop, if they got paid.
Anything beyond 8 hours on duty is overtime pay, not yur standard 40 hours a week then overtime.
A 12 hour day is 8 straight pay hours, and 4hours overtime pay.
Some guys are that hungry.
As for the common sense point, I dont have the GCOR right here with me, but the hours of service law contains your common sense clause, in that it allows the crew to continue to move the train if stopping it where they are presents a clear and present danger to the public, the carrier or another train.
In other words, if you have twenty cyanide tankcars blocking a ungated at grade public crossing, the crew would continue to move the train till those cars were no longer in danger of being hit.
The reason we dont even contact the carrier via radio is because they already know how long we have been working, (they called us, remember?), and we have already notified the dispatcher in advance that we are close to dieing on the law, (the rules say we must notify the DS in advance)
If we did contact the carrier,or perform any service to the carrier after 12 hours, then next time they will expect us to do so again, but this time, it will be along the lines of "why dont you just take it on up to milepost **** for the crew change, or some thing along those lines.
In the end, that carrier will expect you to continue to viloate the law to benefit them, and when the Feds start handing out fines, the carrier will say you performed the work on your own, without their knowledge.
Most crews are very aware of the local terrain, the number of crossings and their location, and where the circuts start and stop.
We plan ahead for the hours of service, by the 11th hour, you know if you can or cant get to where you need to.
I would bet, like Carl said, they got a bad wheel report, or, if they were using a counter, it was set wrong.
The newspaper story said they had pulled forward enough to clear the crossing, not the gate circut, and yes, one car too many will do that.
I would bet they had a minute or two left, so they stopped, tied the motors down, isolated them, the engineer removed the reverser, (the keys, if you will) and stuck it in his grip, and they walked to a local diner to wait for the cab, all of this pre arranged before hand with the dispatcher, crew caller and the trainmaster, totally unaware they were still in the circut for the crossing mentioned.
If we know we will block a crossing, and we know its a major crossing, the likes of which emergency personel would have to use, or if we know it is the only crossing for miles, we make plans to drop the conductor or brakeman off, and we will cut the crossing in the clear.
The idea that we just run until we are out of time, and then stop where ever we might be, public be dammed is silly.
Most cities and towns have a local ordanince concerning the amout of time a train may block a public crossing without moving.
Here in Houston, its 5 minutes for a "standing" train. If the train moves, even a car length, the clock starts over.
In Houston, its impossible to stop and not block a crossing somewhere.
And every so often, circumstances are beyond anyones control.
We had a automobile accident at a tee intersection, the main road tangent to our main line.
Auto traffic had backed up from the intersection on to and across our crossing, and so far back from there as to make it impossible for the morons who stopped on the crossing to back up.
Add to that the fact that they had pulled up to the intersection side by side, trying to cut into line.
We came around a curve, looking at six autos stopped on the crossing, with no where for them to go.
We stopped, and waited. And waited, and waited.
Before you ask, no, we couldnt back up, the DS had run another grain train right up behind us, less than a mile, and backing up that mile wouldnt clear anything up. So along comes a HPD Sargent, who decides to give us a ticket for blocking the crossings over five minutes.
Now, he can see the reason we are stopped, and instead of going to the crossing and making the morons move, he decides to give me a ticket.
He demands my drivers license, which I refuse to give him, mostly because I dont have it with me, all I carry on duty is my switchmans license,(a lost wallet on a railroad is lost forever).
So now he is pretty hot, wants to arrest me for failing to produce my drivers license, even though such a license dosnt give me the right to operate a locomotive, and I am the conductor, not the engineer.
Buy the way, the law says you only have to have a drivers liecense if you are opperating a motorized vehicle on public property, its a license only, not a required ID, you dont have to carry it with you all the time.
But I am the guy in charge, and he refuses to accept my switchmans license,
and he decides I am going to jail for not giving him my drivers license.
We ended up calling our railroad cops, who brough a trainmaster with them, and after several minutes of very heated argument, it came down to the trainmaster accepting, as a agent of the carrier, a traffic ticket for blocking a public crossing.
Now, had the cop excersised the rule of common sense, he would have cleared the crossing so we could have moved, instead he decided to play macho super cop.
Common sense?
Uh Huh!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Dan,
The hours of service law is a two edged sword.
It was put in place not only to prevent the carrier from abusing crews, but because there are some railroaders who would work 24 hours at a pop, if they got paid.
Anything beyond 8 hours on duty is overtime pay, not yur standard 40 hours a week then overtime.
A 12 hour day is 8 straight pay hours, and 4hours overtime pay.
Some guys are that hungry.
As for the common sense point, I dont have the GCOR right here with me, but the hours of service law contains your common sense clause, in that it allows the crew to continue to move the train if stopping it where they are presents a clear and present danger to the public, the carrier or another train.
In other words, if you have twenty cyanide tankcars blocking a ungated at grade public crossing, the crew would continue to move the train till those cars were no longer in danger of being hit.
The reason we dont even contact the carrier via radio is because they already know how long we have been working, (they called us, remember?), and we have already notified the dispatcher in advance that we are close to dieing on the law, (the rules say we must notify the DS in advance)
If we did contact the carrier,or perform any service to the carrier after 12 hours, then next time they will expect us to do so again, but this time, it will be along the lines of "why dont you just take it on up to milepost **** for the crew change, or some thing along those lines.
In the end, that carrier will expect you to continue to viloate the law to benefit them, and when the Feds start handing out fines, the carrier will say you performed the work on your own, without their knowledge.
Most crews are very aware of the local terrain, the number of crossings and their location, and where the circuts start and stop.
We plan ahead for the hours of service, by the 11th hour, you know if you can or cant get to where you need to.
I would bet, like Carl said, they got a bad wheel report, or, if they were using a counter, it was set wrong.
The newspaper story said they had pulled forward enough to clear the crossing, not the gate circut, and yes, one car too many will do that.
I would bet they had a minute or two left, so they stopped, tied the motors down, isolated them, the engineer removed the reverser, (the keys, if you will) and stuck it in his grip, and they walked to a local diner to wait for the cab, all of this pre arranged before hand with the dispatcher, crew caller and the trainmaster, totally unaware they were still in the circut for the crossing mentioned.
If we know we will block a crossing, and we know its a major crossing, the likes of which emergency personel would have to use, or if we know it is the only crossing for miles, we make plans to drop the conductor or brakeman off, and we will cut the crossing in the clear.
The idea that we just run until we are out of time, and then stop where ever we might be, public be dammed is silly.
Most cities and towns have a local ordanince concerning the amout of time a train may block a public crossing without moving.
Here in Houston, its 5 minutes for a "standing" train. If the train moves, even a car length, the clock starts over.
In Houston, its impossible to stop and not block a crossing somewhere.
And every so often, circumstances are beyond anyones control.
We had a automobile accident at a tee intersection, the main road tangent to our main line.
Auto traffic had backed up from the intersection on to and across our crossing, and so far back from there as to make it impossible for the morons who stopped on the crossing to back up.
Add to that the fact that they had pulled up to the intersection side by side, trying to cut into line.
We came around a curve, looking at six autos stopped on the crossing, with no where for them to go.
We stopped, and waited. And waited, and waited.
Before you ask, no, we couldnt back up, the DS had run another grain train right up behind us, less than a mile, and backing up that mile wouldnt clear anything up. So along comes a HPD Sargent, who decides to give us a ticket for blocking the crossings over five minutes.
Now, he can see the reason we are stopped, and instead of going to the crossing and making the morons move, he decides to give me a ticket.
He demands my drivers license, which I refuse to give him, mostly because I dont have it with me, all I carry on duty is my switchmans license,(a lost wallet on a railroad is lost forever).
So now he is pretty hot, wants to arrest me for failing to produce my drivers license, even though such a license dosnt give me the right to operate a locomotive, and I am the conductor, not the engineer.
Buy the way, the law says you only have to have a drivers liecense if you are opperating a motorized vehicle on public property, its a license only, not a required ID, you dont have to carry it with you all the time.
But I am the guy in charge, and he refuses to accept my switchmans license,
and he decides I am going to jail for not giving him my drivers license.
We ended up calling our railroad cops, who brough a trainmaster with them, and after several minutes of very heated argument, it came down to the trainmaster accepting, as a agent of the carrier, a traffic ticket for blocking a public crossing.
Now, had the cop excersised the rule of common sense, he would have cleared the crossing so we could have moved, instead he decided to play macho super cop.
Common sense?
Uh Huh!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Puckdropper]

Common sense fails when you start talking money. A ticket is a ticket, and tickets mean fines. That means money for the goverments whose official writes it.

It would be better if common sense was common... ;-)

[Puckdropper]

Common sense fails when you start talking money. A ticket is a ticket, and tickets mean fines. That means money for the goverments whose official writes it.

It would be better if common sense was common... ;-)

[dharmon]

Ahh yes, HPD the epicenter of rationality and common sense.

Like I said, I'm not out to blame the crews. They have a job to do and unfortunately will get the blame either way.

[dharmon]

Ahh yes, HPD the epicenter of rationality and common sense.

Like I said, I'm not out to blame the crews. They have a job to do and unfortunately will get the blame either way.

[Mookie]

And common sense takes one step backwards! Again!

Mookie

[Mookie]

And common sense takes one step backwards! Again!

Mookie

[Modelcar]

...."Pottstown in the boonies"....It's in the metropolitan area of Philadelphia..! Not quite the boonies.

[Modelcar]

...."Pottstown in the boonies"....It's in the metropolitan area of Philadelphia..! Not quite the boonies.

[Modelcar]

....Jen, we must fight for the "commorn sense" value no matter what the subject.

[Modelcar]

....Jen, we must fight for the "commorn sense" value no matter what the subject.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Jen, we must fight for the "commorn sense" value no matter what the subject.

I'm right in there fightin' with you. It is a real uphill battle.

I read two papers in the morning and have to stop that. My blood pressure can't take that kind of abuse!

Jen

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Jen, we must fight for the "commorn sense" value no matter what the subject.

I'm right in there fightin' with you. It is a real uphill battle.

I read two papers in the morning and have to stop that. My blood pressure can't take that kind of abuse!

Jen

[dharmon]

MlaM,

You read and you don't have a computer at home?????

Is this some sorta communist conspiracy?

[dharmon]

MlaM,

You read and you don't have a computer at home?????

Is this some sorta communist conspiracy?

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

MlaM,

You read and you don't have a computer at home?????

Is this some sorta communist conspiracy?

I don't know - do the communists read?

duh Mook

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

MlaM,

You read and you don't have a computer at home?????

Is this some sorta communist conspiracy?

I don't know - do the communists read?

duh Mook

[zardoz]

Sure they read--but everything they read is read (red). Get it? HaHa.

[zardoz]

Sure they read--but everything they read is read (red). Get it? HaHa.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

MlaM,

You read and you don't have a computer at home?????

Is this some sorta communist conspiracy?

I don't know - do the communists read?

duh Mook

we had to make a deal at home with the kids that x amount of bonafide reading (books with more words than pictures) would earn y amount of time playing on the computer or video games, of course after homework and chores are done. We are the meanest and most unfair parents in the world, because NO ONE, NOT ONE OF THEIR FREINDS has to do chores or is restricted in their internet use by their parents. We are treating them like communist slaves.......we have been told.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

MlaM,

You read and you don't have a computer at home?????

Is this some sorta communist conspiracy?

I don't know - do the communists read?

duh Mook

we had to make a deal at home with the kids that x amount of bonafide reading (books with more words than pictures) would earn y amount of time playing on the computer or video games, of course after homework and chores are done. We are the meanest and most unfair parents in the world, because NO ONE, NOT ONE OF THEIR FREINDS has to do chores or is restricted in their internet use by their parents. We are treating them like communist slaves.......we have been told.