For anyone in or around Pottstown PA!

[dharmon]

"Good afternoon Ladies and gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking....Due to weather conditions at Newark we are going to have to go into holding for a couple of hours while we get sequenced. Unfortunately, because of this delay the First Officer and I will run out of crew day and will be bailing out now. We have set the autopilot, and if any of you have any large aircraft experience, we have left the manual in the cockpit if you want to give landing a try. You may experience a little discomfort when we depressurize, but if someone will close the main cabin door behind us, conditions should return to normal shortly, and again thank you for flying the friendly skies."

[dharmon]

"Good afternoon Ladies and gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking....Due to weather conditions at Newark we are going to have to go into holding for a couple of hours while we get sequenced. Unfortunately, because of this delay the First Officer and I will run out of crew day and will be bailing out now. We have set the autopilot, and if any of you have any large aircraft experience, we have left the manual in the cockpit if you want to give landing a try. You may experience a little discomfort when we depressurize, but if someone will close the main cabin door behind us, conditions should return to normal shortly, and again thank you for flying the friendly skies."

[Modelcar]

.....That's about as ridiculous as it really is.

[Modelcar]

.....That's about as ridiculous as it really is.

[Modelcar]

....Sorry...Jen for bringing up that nasty old "common sense" again...

[Modelcar]

....Sorry...Jen for bringing up that nasty old "common sense" again...

[Modelcar]

....Also, if a major fire erupted in the downtown business district I'll wager someone would think it would be an emergency if fire equipment was located on the "other" side of the tracks.

[Modelcar]

....Also, if a major fire erupted in the downtown business district I'll wager someone would think it would be an emergency if fire equipment was located on the "other" side of the tracks.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

"Good afternoon Ladies and gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking....Due to weather conditions at Newark we are going to have to go into holding for a couple of hours while we get sequenced. Unfortunately, because of this delay the First Officer and I will run out of crew day and will be bailing out now. We have set the autopilot, and if any of you have any large aircraft experience, we have left the manual in the cockpit if you want to give landing a try. You may experience a little discomfort when we depressurize, but if someone will close the main cabin door behind us, conditions should return to normal shortly, and again thank you for flying the friendly skies."

[:D] this is so funny!!

Mook

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

"Good afternoon Ladies and gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking....Due to weather conditions at Newark we are going to have to go into holding for a couple of hours while we get sequenced. Unfortunately, because of this delay the First Officer and I will run out of crew day and will be bailing out now. We have set the autopilot, and if any of you have any large aircraft experience, we have left the manual in the cockpit if you want to give landing a try. You may experience a little discomfort when we depressurize, but if someone will close the main cabin door behind us, conditions should return to normal shortly, and again thank you for flying the friendly skies."

[:D] this is so funny!!

Mook

[CShaveRR]

First off, I'm not familiar with Pottstown, NS, or any of the principal players in this drama, but there are a couple of things that make one go "Hmmm" here.

First of all, the engineer is getting a bad rap here. There was probably a conductor on board who died at about the same time. Nobody mentions him.

I doubt that they were told to "clear the crossing and wait". More likely, they were told to proceed to a point where a new crew could relieve them, and had to determine on their own where to stop to clear the crossing. A faulty wheel report could cause a miscalculation like that...one car that didn't show on the wheel would have been enough.

And, if I'm not mistaken, there is some edict in place that says the crew has to leave the cab when their time is up. I heard something about that a while back, but not lately. Nobody would just "walk off" with nowhere to go. They would have (and legally should have) had no communication with anyone, so they probably didn't know the crossing was blocked.

So instead of getting all huffy and riled and taking traffic matters into their own hands, shouldn't the locals have called the phone number shown by the crossing? I assume NS does this; the other three big railroads have such a number. A signal maintainer could have raised the gates and/or provided flag protection, with the help of the dispatcher. I'm sure it wouldn't have taken two hours.

I hope this is investigated...someone might get canned over it, but it shouldn't be the crew. I'd be more concerned with prevention of future occurrences.

Carl

[CShaveRR]

First off, I'm not familiar with Pottstown, NS, or any of the principal players in this drama, but there are a couple of things that make one go "Hmmm" here.

First of all, the engineer is getting a bad rap here. There was probably a conductor on board who died at about the same time. Nobody mentions him.

I doubt that they were told to "clear the crossing and wait". More likely, they were told to proceed to a point where a new crew could relieve them, and had to determine on their own where to stop to clear the crossing. A faulty wheel report could cause a miscalculation like that...one car that didn't show on the wheel would have been enough.

And, if I'm not mistaken, there is some edict in place that says the crew has to leave the cab when their time is up. I heard something about that a while back, but not lately. Nobody would just "walk off" with nowhere to go. They would have (and legally should have) had no communication with anyone, so they probably didn't know the crossing was blocked.

So instead of getting all huffy and riled and taking traffic matters into their own hands, shouldn't the locals have called the phone number shown by the crossing? I assume NS does this; the other three big railroads have such a number. A signal maintainer could have raised the gates and/or provided flag protection, with the help of the dispatcher. I'm sure it wouldn't have taken two hours.

I hope this is investigated...someone might get canned over it, but it shouldn't be the crew. I'd be more concerned with prevention of future occurrences.

Carl

[dharmon]

I'm sure there is more to the story, I don't think a crew (conducter included) would abandon their train. But just as the pilot is the focal point for anything that happens on a plane or the captain on a ship, the engineer, as the driver becomes the focal point here. Right or wrong he is the representative of the RR at that moment. Did the police try to call the number on the crossing sign, we'll probably never know. I think we're (at least I was) pokin' fun at the situation, not an individual. Flight crews are equally rigid about manditory hours, however, when an unforseen instance arises that makes them go over, they can't park the plane...usually. I did not mean to offend REAL train dudes.

[dharmon]

I'm sure there is more to the story, I don't think a crew (conducter included) would abandon their train. But just as the pilot is the focal point for anything that happens on a plane or the captain on a ship, the engineer, as the driver becomes the focal point here. Right or wrong he is the representative of the RR at that moment. Did the police try to call the number on the crossing sign, we'll probably never know. I think we're (at least I was) pokin' fun at the situation, not an individual. Flight crews are equally rigid about manditory hours, however, when an unforseen instance arises that makes them go over, they can't park the plane...usually. I did not mean to offend REAL train dudes.

[Modelcar]

...In our fair city here of Muncie we have a problem with NS on a line running in from the northwest. Too often they block traffic and it is for some considerable time and it really causes traffic problems in our west side of town. I don't know what is the reason the train is stationary for sometimes an hour or more but it really causes problems. Police have been involved at times but I don't know of what results it has produced. Moving fire equipment is a concern when required to pass over the track and it is blocked making them go out of their way, etc....I don't know if it has anything to do with a "dead" crew in some of the traffic tieups but wheither it is that or not, it really creates a problem.

[Modelcar]

...In our fair city here of Muncie we have a problem with NS on a line running in from the northwest. Too often they block traffic and it is for some considerable time and it really causes traffic problems in our west side of town. I don't know what is the reason the train is stationary for sometimes an hour or more but it really causes problems. Police have been involved at times but I don't know of what results it has produced. Moving fire equipment is a concern when required to pass over the track and it is blocked making them go out of their way, etc....I don't know if it has anything to do with a "dead" crew in some of the traffic tieups but wheither it is that or not, it really creates a problem.

[Mookie]

C'mon people - I bet a lot of you know why the crossings are blocked. Also bet there is a little human influence not on the engine that is the problem. So give us the real scoop!

Mz Moo

[Mookie]

C'mon people - I bet a lot of you know why the crossings are blocked. Also bet there is a little human influence not on the engine that is the problem. So give us the real scoop!

Mz Moo

[Anonymous]

I LIVE OUTSIDE OF POTTSTOWN. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHO RUNS AND WHEN TRAINS GO ON THE OLD COLBROOKDALE BRANCH LINE

[Anonymous]

I LIVE OUTSIDE OF POTTSTOWN. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHO RUNS AND WHEN TRAINS GO ON THE OLD COLBROOKDALE BRANCH LINE

[Anonymous]

Madam DA Mook and all, it is a violation of the Federal Hours of Service Act for any train or engineman to exceed 12 hours on duty. If the emgineer wants to be a good guy and pull the locos up to clear the circuit, and a Fed inspector is watching, he can be fined up to $10,000; not the Company, but the engineer out of his own pocket! If the dispatcher orders the crew to pull up to clear in violation, the dispatcher can be fined up to yada yada. Hence, none of these guys are going to stick their necks out. Some years back, an engineer was called to work a baseball special after the game. He warned the boss he wouldn't make it, and he didn't. He outlawed halfway to his destination, and the train full of hot, tired ball fans sat there until a relief engineer was called out. That made the news, too. The engineer later received a letter from a Company VP exonerating him. I once was outlawing on a westbound. We were in the middle of nowhere, and I told the trainman that my watch showed we still had 3 minutes to work. We then pulled up to clear an important crossing in town where we walked up and bought a breakfast while waiting for the taxi. No, I didn't block the road. Probably, the guy in Pottstown should have stopped short of the road and waited there, notifying the DS he had no time. But I don't expect he is in any great trouble. And Mook...I'm not "ornery". Usually.

[Anonymous]

Madam DA Mook and all, it is a violation of the Federal Hours of Service Act for any train or engineman to exceed 12 hours on duty. If the emgineer wants to be a good guy and pull the locos up to clear the circuit, and a Fed inspector is watching, he can be fined up to $10,000; not the Company, but the engineer out of his own pocket! If the dispatcher orders the crew to pull up to clear in violation, the dispatcher can be fined up to yada yada. Hence, none of these guys are going to stick their necks out. Some years back, an engineer was called to work a baseball special after the game. He warned the boss he wouldn't make it, and he didn't. He outlawed halfway to his destination, and the train full of hot, tired ball fans sat there until a relief engineer was called out. That made the news, too. The engineer later received a letter from a Company VP exonerating him. I once was outlawing on a westbound. We were in the middle of nowhere, and I told the trainman that my watch showed we still had 3 minutes to work. We then pulled up to clear an important crossing in town where we walked up and bought a breakfast while waiting for the taxi. No, I didn't block the road. Probably, the guy in Pottstown should have stopped short of the road and waited there, notifying the DS he had no time. But I don't expect he is in any great trouble. And Mook...I'm not "ornery". Usually.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Skeets, don't know where you are, but think you are just ornery enough to do this! So don't read this; don't want to give you any ideas!

Mookie

Want to see ornery, Ook? Check out the "Two trains running" thread down below. My story is TRUE, no porches there. BTW, what happened to your green stars? You likely over reached demanding a tiara too.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Skeets, don't know where you are, but think you are just ornery enough to do this! So don't read this; don't want to give you any ideas!

Mookie

Want to see ornery, Ook? Check out the "Two trains running" thread down below. My story is TRUE, no porches there. BTW, what happened to your green stars? You likely over reached demanding a tiara too.

[dharmon]

Okay, first I gotta put the disclaimer out there -- we all gotta live by the rules that are set down for your particular profession. Whatever the job, you got some rules, and you knew that goin' into it. You know how to work it and you know how to break it and get away with it. My book has a catchall statement that covers me to the effect of ".....no rule shall be interpreted such that it takes the place of good judgment..." I have had to exercise that clause a few times, and explain why in a particular situation I did X or Y with the taxpayers very expensive asset. But I made damn sure if I was going to use it, I could defend it.
Given the same example in aviation.......if I take off near the end of crew day for something other than "operational neccessity" (we don't go there unless someone's gonna get hurt) and I knowingly violate crew day, I'm screwed. Now if if take off and there is a reasonable expectation that I can conduct the mission (peacetime rules only here folks, you get your money's worth plus during the bad times) and return or get to my destination within 18 hours of my original brief time and for some reason in the flight I am delayed (weather, holding, malfunction) its cool, as long as there was a reasonable expectation I could do it.....not down to gnats &*^ (behind), and it was beyond my control.

If a train has to stop in the middle of a town because of crew day, then something's wrong with your system. Either you get to where you're going (within reason) or you fine the railroad not the crew for pushing it.

I AM NOT saying this crew did the wrong thing. Sounds like they thought they were clear,but weren't. It happens. I just think this system is messed up if there is no common sense clause. If I ran a railroad, and the choice was pull forward and make sure you are clear of all crossings and I' ll pay the fine should you get one for exceeding crew day or the possibility of having to pay out liability because someone died becaue a fire truck or ambulance couldn' t pass....I'd rather go to court over the crew day issue

Now as public servant, I say if you don't like what you get, vote to change it. as RR employees, if you don't like it, get us to vote to change it. I Railfan and I Vote....how's that for a bumper sticker?

Dan

[dharmon]

Okay, first I gotta put the disclaimer out there -- we all gotta live by the rules that are set down for your particular profession. Whatever the job, you got some rules, and you knew that goin' into it. You know how to work it and you know how to break it and get away with it. My book has a catchall statement that covers me to the effect of ".....no rule shall be interpreted such that it takes the place of good judgment..." I have had to exercise that clause a few times, and explain why in a particular situation I did X or Y with the taxpayers very expensive asset. But I made damn sure if I was going to use it, I could defend it.
Given the same example in aviation.......if I take off near the end of crew day for something other than "operational neccessity" (we don't go there unless someone's gonna get hurt) and I knowingly violate crew day, I'm screwed. Now if if take off and there is a reasonable expectation that I can conduct the mission (peacetime rules only here folks, you get your money's worth plus during the bad times) and return or get to my destination within 18 hours of my original brief time and for some reason in the flight I am delayed (weather, holding, malfunction) its cool, as long as there was a reasonable expectation I could do it.....not down to gnats &*^ (behind), and it was beyond my control.

If a train has to stop in the middle of a town because of crew day, then something's wrong with your system. Either you get to where you're going (within reason) or you fine the railroad not the crew for pushing it.

I AM NOT saying this crew did the wrong thing. Sounds like they thought they were clear,but weren't. It happens. I just think this system is messed up if there is no common sense clause. If I ran a railroad, and the choice was pull forward and make sure you are clear of all crossings and I' ll pay the fine should you get one for exceeding crew day or the possibility of having to pay out liability because someone died becaue a fire truck or ambulance couldn' t pass....I'd rather go to court over the crew day issue

Now as public servant, I say if you don't like what you get, vote to change it. as RR employees, if you don't like it, get us to vote to change it. I Railfan and I Vote....how's that for a bumper sticker?

Dan

[Modelcar]

.....Sounds like great logic to me Dan. Jen, there's that "common sense" clause again...See it's not dead. There is hope.

[Modelcar]

.....Sounds like great logic to me Dan. Jen, there's that "common sense" clause again...See it's not dead. There is hope.

[dehusman]

First off if you actually read the posts above about what actually happened, the train did not stop on the crossing. The train stopped on the crossing circuit so the lights and gate came on, but the train itself was not on the crossing. The police flagged the cars around the gates. No fire truck was blocked or would have been blocked. No ambulance was blocked or would have been blocked. There was no emergency. If the crew exceeds the hours of service to move the train, they could be fined personally by the FRA, and the railroad could be fined by the FRA and if a superior told them to move the train the superior could be fined personally by the FRA.

One cure would be to install motion sensing crossing equipment. The gates come down, the system "sees" the trains is not moving toward the crossing and after a minute or so lifts the gates. Another train shows up or the train starts moving toward the crossing, the gates come back down. All it takes is your state highway dept to ante up the bucks.

If the train stops the crew is supposed to try and stay off the crossings. If they can't and won't be moving soon, they are supposed to cut the crossing. A good crew will sometimes purposely block a crossing if its going to meet several trains in a row, just to keep people from crossing in front of it and being hit by a train on the other track.

If all else fails and the crew does reach their hours of service with a crossing blocked, Federal Law prohibits them from moving the train unless there is an immediate emergency. Period.

[dehusman]

First off if you actually read the posts above about what actually happened, the train did not stop on the crossing. The train stopped on the crossing circuit so the lights and gate came on, but the train itself was not on the crossing. The police flagged the cars around the gates. No fire truck was blocked or would have been blocked. No ambulance was blocked or would have been blocked. There was no emergency. If the crew exceeds the hours of service to move the train, they could be fined personally by the FRA, and the railroad could be fined by the FRA and if a superior told them to move the train the superior could be fined personally by the FRA.

One cure would be to install motion sensing crossing equipment. The gates come down, the system "sees" the trains is not moving toward the crossing and after a minute or so lifts the gates. Another train shows up or the train starts moving toward the crossing, the gates come back down. All it takes is your state highway dept to ante up the bucks.

If the train stops the crew is supposed to try and stay off the crossings. If they can't and won't be moving soon, they are supposed to cut the crossing. A good crew will sometimes purposely block a crossing if its going to meet several trains in a row, just to keep people from crossing in front of it and being hit by a train on the other track.

If all else fails and the crew does reach their hours of service with a crossing blocked, Federal Law prohibits them from moving the train unless there is an immediate emergency. Period.