customers of the old CNW rail line in WI

[bobwilcox]

The growth of the Wisconsin Central and the BN haulage agreement with CN doomed the northend of the C&NW. The loss of the overhead traffic destroyed the economics of the rest of the traffic. Without the overhead traffic the local traffic did not justify through manifests. For C&NW it became cheaper to move the traffic via the Twin Cities, by combining traffic heading south with that heading to Chicago you could generate a complete train. One through manifest could not generate enough money to pay for the upkeep of the whole line from Eau Claire to Superior. When the WC bought the line from the C&NW, they kept the northern portion of the C&NW from Gordon north. South of Gordon there were several bridges in poor condition.

The only source of traffic north of Cameron was the paper mill at Hayward which is on a short branch, a portion of the old Omaha mainline to Ashland, plus some sidings that loaded pulpwood, until you get to Superior.

You hit the nail on the head.  The only way to support the line from Itasca toward Spooner and south was potash and lumber from Western Canada to connections in Chicago and forwarding to customers in to the East in Official Territory.  Once the CN had their own route to Chicago the Northwestern's line was redundant.  The Northwestern made a strategic error in not having the haulage trains move over their railroad rather than the BN.

I was the Market Manager-Chemicals and Fertilizer for the Northwestern from 1970 to 1982.

 

[dknelson]

This has been a very interesting string of messages and photos -- but to get to the original question -- I strongly recommend buying the reprint of the 1923 C&NW Shipper's Directory that is often seen for sale at swap meets such as DuPage and elsewhere by the publisher, Ted Schnepf..

http://users.foxvalley.net/~railsunl/Books/shippers.html

The 1923 Shipper's Directory goes state by state, town by town and lists the local customers by name, all organized by industry/product/material.  (Which means you can't just look up a city or town and get a complete picture -- it is more cumbersome than that).   A little time with a map and the directory and you should have an excellent notion of local customers (shippers AND receivers -- the title is a bit misleading) along the line.  What it won't tell you is volume -- so an outfit that received or shipped one car a year looks just the same as one that received or shipped ten cars a day.   

It is fascinating for example to see how many small towns received furniture by rail in the 1920s.  Even in the late 1950s I can remember the local furniture store's truck at the South Milwaukee depot unloading a boxcar, probably from N. Carolina.

The Directory reprint is fairly thick and I think it is worth the asking price.  I bought an original 1940 Shipper's Directory in poor condition and paid $100. 

If you can locate old city and town directories in a public library it is possible to use the 1923 data and move forward to more recent years so that you can at least guess as to customers.  If you have specific questions about a city or town send me an email at [e-mail] and I'll try to look it up in the 1940 edition for you.

Note that Ted offers a deal on both the Milwaukee Road and CNW shipper's directory.

Dave Nelson

[Lord Atmo]

i see. CN is down to 6 trains a week in Chippewa Falls. that track must have been used less too

[fuzzybroken]

A little more information to add to this topic...  Somehow I missed it the first time through...

The track on which Wisconsin Northern runs is owned by an entity similar to those that own much of Wisconsin & Southern's track, sort of a government cooperative.  It is then leased to and operated by the WN.

The story on the WC (now CN) line to Superior was a little different in my recollection.  When SOO sold to WC, the line to Superior was still owned by SOO, as they did not want WC to become a bridge line, and run overhead freight.  Eventually, WC found a willing seller in C&NW to get their line to Superior, but a clause in the SOO sale contract forced them to purchase the SOO Superior line at the same time.  WC took the best of the two lines, and abandoned the rest.

And then CN started sending their trains via WC, and eventually bought them!

[Lord Atmo]

 

I'm not sure how regularly they operate, or when they operate. They run in "push me, pull me" mode, having a engine at the end of each train.

 

sorry for reviving this old topic, but i just saw the WN yesterday. and i think they run trains as soon as UP brings them enough cars to make a long enough train with. or whenever their customers request it. all i know is they left Chippewa Falls yesterday going North at about 11:30 AM

[Lord Atmo]

i never see them other than idling at norma, but it's good to see that they're doing very well for their small size

[beaulieu]

W&N is north on Monday and Wednesday, south on Tuesday and Thursday, Friday is done as a round trip, they do as much as they can but have to make it back. Officially they begin at Norma, the switch to the industrial park on the NE side of Chippewa Falls.

[CNW 6000]

Awesome info, thanks!

[wgnrr]

The Wisconsin Northern Railroad is owned by Progressive Rail in Minnesota. They own (I believe they own it) the old C&NW track from Chippewa Falls to Cameron, and the old Soo Line track from Cameron to Barron. There is a Yahoo Group on this road, called WISCONSINNORTHERN. They have 2 GP15-1's, as mentioned, and also have a SW1500, which was brought over from Progressive Rail in MN. It is numbered the 34. Once and a while they use the D.A.R.E. caboose from the Locomotive & Tower Preservation Fund (which restored the Eau Claire tower, and put it in a park, and retored the 2719 and 1003 steam engines) which is an ex-SOO wide vision, for special trips such as the Santa Train, which they ran last year with the SW1500.

I'm not sure how regularly they operate, or when they operate. They run in "push me, pull me" mode, having a engine at the end of each train.

 

Phil

[CNW 6000]

I just figured that out.  I searched for them using www.dogpile.com and then checked out some guy named Ron's site because he had pics of the engines.  I like their paint scheme.  I couldn't find a website for the company or any info about when they started operation.

[wctransfer]

Not much, and I beleive its mostly all ex CNW, pink lady ballast and all.

Alec

[CNW 6000]

Wisconsin Northern. Has 2 GP15-1s for power. Alec

Aha, thanks!  How much trackage do they have or use?

[wctransfer]

Wisconsin Northern. Has 2 GP15-1s for power.

Alec

[CNW 6000]

Sorry to ask a stupid question, but what's the WN?

[Lord Atmo]

you're right. i'm just a little too optimistic. i'm a bit saddened by how much track in WI has been dug up. makes me wish there was change involving MORE rail traffic. that's why i'm so interested in the WN

[beaulieu]

<snipped>

 

seems the crossover is now just a curve track. sad to see all the track go to waste. sounds like CNW wanted out from their failure to get MILW moreso than the sudden loss of customers. i have a feeling something might happen with that old trackage one year or another. if more industrial areas pop up in the area or WN becomes bigger etc. it's a pipe dream, i know

You have to understand that times change. If the C&NW had won the bidding for the MILW it would have been a disaster, even if the judge had accepted the bid that was just slightly worse than the Soo bid. The C&NW had no where near the cash available that the Soo did even without its parent CP. What changed after the Soo acquired the MILW was that railroads were finally doing what the Staggers Act allowed them to do, and that was compete. The CN decided since their subsidiary GTW wasn't allowed to get the MILW that they would move all their Chicago traffic via the BN through the Twin Cities. This move really reduced both the C&NW and Soo traffic out of Duluth-Superior. Both went from several trains per day to one train or less, with the C&NW having a few more local customers in Superior than the Soo. The loss of the traffic was one of the final nails in the Lakes States coffin that caused the Soo Line to sell their Wisconsin trackage to the WC.

    All the local customers between Superior and Cameron were already gone except for some sidings used to load pulpwood for Wisconsin Rapids and the paper mill on the Hayward Branch. Pulpwood is a very marginal business. The WC was able to make it work once they got everybody's business (Soo, C&NW, and MILW) and were able to concentrate the service to a few loading points. Even then they abandoned the branch from Dresser to Danbury because pulpwood was the only traffic left north of St. Croix Falls, plus 5 or 6 cars of LPG for a Coop.

[Lord Atmo]

oh my... all these years from when i went under that bridge for the last time to a few minutes ago, i thouyght the bridge was for the same track that was to my right on that highway. amazing what a few well-placed hills will do to fool you. it all makes perfect sense now!

 

seems the crossover is now just a curve track. sad to see all the track go to waste. sounds like CNW wanted out from their failure to get MILW moreso than the sudden loss of customers. i have a feeling something might happen with that old trackage one year or another. if more industrial areas pop up in the area or WN becomes bigger etc. it's a pipe dream, i know

[wgnrr]

I believe that is the old C&NW you are looking at. From Owen to Gordon, the CN utilizes the SOO/WC tracks. Then, they made a crossover to the C&NW tracks. The C&NW tracks are torn up from the bridge to where the crossover now joins.

Here's some maps.

The first one is from DeLorme. The dotted line is the abandoned C&NW, and the normal line is the SOO.

The second one is a current map. You can see that there is a crossover from the SOO to the C&NW tracks. The arrow is pointing at the C&NW tracks, shown as a road.

[Lord Atmo]

ah thanks. what is the track that still remains there then? i believe if driving to Duluth and after you pass that spot, you'll see a track suddenly appear to your right. i thought that was the old SOO track? which track is that one?

[wgnrr]

Try this. I tried a different image hosting to see if that works.

Phil

[Lord Atmo]

the pics arent working

[wgnrr]

i remember when highway 53 was still only 2 lanes. it went under a SOO bridge just north of trego. now when i'm on my way to and from Duluth, i always see what's left of the bridge. the ex WC track is still there, but i dont know if CN uses it or not still.

Just wondering, but there is no ex-WC, nee-SOO bridge north of Trego. The bridge north of Trego going over Hwy. 63 is of C&NW vintage. The bridge I believe you are talking about is the old SOO bridge that used to go over Hwy. 53 just north of Gordon. That bridge is long gone. For those of you who don't know the info, I'll tell you.

The Soo Line crossed over the old CMO tracks north of Gordon, before crossing over Hwy. 53.

In 92' (If I remember correctly) the C&NW (old CMO) stopped traffic on the line, and abandoned the line from Itasca to Trego, and Spooner to Cameron.

The WC (ex-SOO) continued to use the bridge, with a abandoned C&NW under it.

The grades to get into Itasca over the WC tracks were farely steep, steep enough to have to put another engine onto the train. However, the abandoned C&NW tracks had less of a grade, and the tracks weren't as windy as the WC's. Shortly after the C&NW abandoned, the WC bought the remaining C&NW trackage from Gordon to Itasca.

The WC built a new section of track to go from the WC's track, to the ex-C&NW track. They then abandoned the ex-SOO track from Gordon to Itasca, thus leaving the bridge abaondoned. The only things left there are as follows:

The ex-C&NW track is a ATV/Snowmobile trail

The Soo grade being used as a sand pit (see pic)

The concreat embankments abandoned.

The old WC tracks are now a lane of Hwy. 53.

It's funny to look at the embankments, and think about that the whole area used to be all sand, and there was no flat area there at all. The area that was exposed to the elements is all black, and rotting, while the part that was underground looks like new.

Phil                                                                      

 

[Lord Atmo]

oh dude thanks. i had no idea anyone had any knowledge of such a small bridge that i hoped to get info on. sweet. so the WGN line is the track that's still near that abandoned bridge now?

wait. the WC crossed the CNW? define "lowered their grade". i dont quite understand

[beaulieu]

i remember when highway 53 was still only 2 lanes. it went under a SOO bridge just north of trego. now when i'm on my way to and from Duluth, i always see what's left of the bridge. the ex WC track is still there, but i dont know if CN uses it or not still.

WN gets most service at that plant? good to hear. i hope they can become successful and become a regional in a few years. but they still have a lot of growing to do

The bridge that you are thinking of is actually a bit further north, it's at Gordon. The old C&NW and WC(former Soo) crossed in Gordon on the east side of the highway, with the WC above the C&NW. The WC lowered their grade and connected their line from south of Gordon to use the C&NW north of Gordon to Superior. So the remains of the Soo Line bridge north of Gordon is abandoned. The old C&NW south of Gordon, through Trego to Spooner is owned by the local county and operated by the shortline Wisconsin Great Northern, they are primarily a tourist operation, they only move a token amount of freight. They hosted the steamer Soo Line 2719 for one summer.

[Lord Atmo]

i remember when highway 53 was still only 2 lanes. it went under a SOO bridge just north of trego. now when i'm on my way to and from Duluth, i always see what's left of the bridge. the ex WC track is still there, but i dont know if CN uses it or not still.

WN gets most service at that plant? good to hear. i hope they can become successful and become a regional in a few years. but they still have a lot of growing to do

[solzrules]

Hey you guys -

Is this line you are talking about connected to the 'Adams line'?  That was CNW's line from the twin cities to Milwauee.  The only reason I ask is that I read in Trains mag that there was very little industry connected to this line - most of the traffic on it now is UP through traffic.  I wonder what UP's plans are for the future of this line?

[beaulieu]

unortunately MPRIT and MITPR go through Wisconsin Rapids now. sad to see 2 manifests gone now from the track near me. i dont recal ever seeing any WC track up in that area, save for the SOO track north of Trego. unless i'm missing something here

The Soo and later WC had an East-West line through, Ladysmith, Cameron, Amery, and Dresser, plus a short branch into Rice Lake. The remains of this line forms the top end of the Wisconsin and Northern.
The Turkey Processing Plant at Barron is one of the biggest customers for Wisconsin and Northern.

The growth of the Wisconsin Central and the BN haulage agreement with CN doomed the northend of the C&NW. The loss of the overhead traffic destroyed the economics of the rest of the traffic. Without the overhead traffic the local traffic did not justify through manifests. For C&NW it became cheaper to move the traffic via the Twin Cities, by combining traffic heading south with that heading to Chicago you could generate a complete train. One through manifest could not generate enough money to pay for the upkeep of the whole line from Eau Claire to Superior. When the WC bought the line from the C&NW, they kept the northern portion of the C&NW from Gordon north. South of Gordon there were several bridges in poor condition.

The only source of traffic north of Cameron was the paper mill at Hayward which is on a short branch, a portion of the old Omaha mainline to Ashland, plus some sidings that loaded pulpwood, until you get to Superior.

[Lord Atmo]

unortunately MPRIT and MITPR go through Wisconsin Rapids now. sad to see 2 manifests gone now from the track near me. i dont recal ever seeing any WC track up in that area, save for the SOO track north of Trego. unless i'm missing something here

[CShaveRR]

I think that any discouragement of customers was done by a previous CNW management, who decided that they didn't want anything to do with Wisconsin after the plans to merge with the MILW fell through.  Look at the massive sell-offs of lines that took place then--FRVR, and later WC, were the beneficiaries of a lot of this, including a route to Duluth.

The folks at WC were go-getters, and they had the benefit of a CEO who knew the inner workings of the CNW pretty well. 

Back in the day, you would have had four manifest pairs through Altoona/Eau Claire:  477/488, 483/490, 417/406, and 415/408.  Now, it should be two:  MPRVP/MSSPR, and MPRIT/MITPR.  Plus the RoadRailer trains (ZEMCH/ZCHEM), which are probably as close a thing to 477/488 that you'll ever hope to see again.

The fact that WC has been bought out by CN certainly couldn't have benefitted the UP's connection with the old DW&P at Itasca.  And I'm pretty sure that people who used CNW to ship between Chicago and the Twin Cities probably just got fed up with slow service when they had faster alternatives.