Never heard of this Hill, sounds like another steep one. Friends and I recently returned from trip to NC and stopped at Saluda Grade, which is no longer used, and saw pics in museum of wrecks on that hill. We also saw Old Fort Loops which is used, NS train had just come off the loops when we saw it. And #611 used it on recent excursion.
The "Hill" is still there, and the tracks are rusty, [as of last week]... The" Madison Hill", is in Madison Indiana, and runs along Ind. Rt. 7 down the hill. They used to serve an old "SHELL OIL" place along the "Ohio River" along with several other industries along the river. I used to live about 49 miles away, and remember the old "SD7"s that worked that hill. Once they switched "Madison Grocery" they would head down the hill.
tree68 NP Eddie So, what were vacuum booster brakes? Likely a variation on the Eames Vacuum Brake. Eames was located in Watertown, NY and was purchased in total by New York Air Brake.
NP Eddie So, what were vacuum booster brakes?
Likely a variation on the Eames Vacuum Brake. Eames was located in Watertown, NY and was purchased in total by New York Air Brake.
I am unsure of the reference to Vacuum Booster brake in the comment about the PRR's Madison Hill Incline; The only thing it might refer to(?) is possibly the braking on the steam engines used on the 'Hill' : some 0-8-0's, the Reuben Wells (an 0-8-0, later rebuilt as a 0-10-0 ). Or possibly a very early diesel that might have been used there at some time?
CatFood Flambe added the following: "...The government facility is/was the Jefferson Proving Ground, built during WWII to test primarily artillery ordiance. It's now an industrial park - I don't beleive they have any active shippers or consignees in the park, but the rail line is making a very nice income on car storage.
The Indiana Railroad Bull Session site has an active thread on the railroad happening that includes just about anything you'd like to know about the line - it's a great bunch of folks. { Note: this linked site has quite a few comments and a number of photos of the Madison Hill Incline; as well as the Jefferson Proving Grounds property at the top of the Incline...}
http://indianarailroads.org/board/index.php?topic=3531.0
Link to page 1 of several pages on that Forum.
And this from a previous Post :
"...Reference: TRAINS, July 1962{ The Issue with the W&A "General" on the cover].
"America's Steepest Railroad: Pennsy's Madison Hill takes honors at 5.89 percent" Elmer G.Sulzer
7012 ft of track, climbs 412ft for a grade of 5.89%. The Madison & Indianapolis RR, 1st in Indiana, was plotted to go straight without tangents, the inclined plain was completed in 1841. was completed with State money by the State which transferred the line to the M&I organized Feb. 03,1843. First train to Indianapolis ran Oct. 1,1847. The State had laid rails rolled in Wales[England] 45# , in 15'9" and 18' lengths between Madison and Griffith's[ Queensland].The balance laid by the M&I to Indianapolis was strap rails..."
"...On Nov.9,1953 two EMD's took over, #8588 and 8589, C-C type, weighted to 360,000# each.Equipped with railwashing devices, wheel slip controls and automatic sanding systems, and dynamic brakes, They were referred to as the "Cadilacs". Train limit was 15 cars, gross weight 350 tons, exclusive of the engine weight..."
P.S. My understanding that the Two SD units 8858 and 8859 were eventually sold to the TRRA of St. Louis, after being disposed of in the aftermath of the Conrail/PC merger(?)
NP EddieSo, what were vacuum booster brakes?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The government facility is/was the Jefferson Proving Ground, built during WWII to test primarily artillery ordiance. It's now an industrial park - I don't beleive they have any active shippers or consignees in the park, but the rail line is making a very nice income on car storage.
The Indiana Railroad Bull Session site has an active thread on the railroad happening that includes just about anything you'd like to know about the line - it's a great bunch of folks.
ALL:
Is the Madison, Ind. hill track still used or has it been taken up? Is it a trail?
I remember reading an ICC accident report (can't locate it) about an accident on that line involving a steam engine. That engine had vacuum booster brakes. So, what were vacuum booster brakes?
Ed Burns
rrnut282 Something that story never explained (at least so I could understand it, anyway) is HOW did the engineer recover without dynamic brakes after the conductor "big holed" the air. As they gained speed, the time to the bottom was significantly shorter than the time it would normally take to recharge the air.
Something that story never explained (at least so I could understand it, anyway) is HOW did the engineer recover without dynamic brakes after the conductor "big holed" the air. As they gained speed, the time to the bottom was significantly shorter than the time it would normally take to recharge the air.
I may not remember correctly, but I think with the brakes in emergency, the wheels had locked up and were sliding. The engineer radioed the conductor to close the air, and he was able to regain control of the train with service application of the brakes. Like I said, I may not remember correctly, or I may be confusing this incident with another story.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
rrnut282Something that story never explained (at least so I could understand it, anyway) is HOW did the engineer recover without dynamic brakes after the conductor "big holed" the air. As they gained speed, the time to the bottom was significantly shorter than the time it would normally take to recharge the air.
I'm not quite sure either. Older air systems worked different than what I am used to, and the emergency was from the rear end, not the engine. Probably no PCS on the engine either. Maybe the engine just kept pumping into the trainline...
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Cheviot HillI thought there was a story about it somewhere that I read once. You wouldn't happen to know what trains edition that it was in would you?
Got it !!
Selected Railroad Reading: Is this Train in emergency? Trains, April 2001 page 58 Runaway, kind of, on Madison Hill ( "CLARK, WARNER J.", INDIANA, PC, REMINISCENCE, TRN )
- PDN.
I remember that story, too. I looked in the ''Index to Magazines'' at the bottom of the page / below last night, but couldn't find it that way. If I run across it and remember, I'll post it here - if no one else does so first.
phbrown You want the firebox at the low end of the boiler. You can pump water from the tender into the boiler (locomotives did so anyway), but the boiler doesn't have internal baffles to keep the water from sloshing end-to-end. So if the firebox is at the high end of the boiler, the water tends to run down to the other end of the boiler, potentially causing the crown sheet (top of the firebox) to be above the water level. Since the fire's hot enough to make the crown sheet fail if there's no water on it, and failure of the crown sheet means a catastrophic boiler explosion—well, you get the picture. If you keep the nose of the engine pointed uphill, you avoid that problem. Hope this helps! Peace, —Peter
You want the firebox at the low end of the boiler. You can pump water from the tender into the boiler (locomotives did so anyway), but the boiler doesn't have internal baffles to keep the water from sloshing end-to-end. So if the firebox is at the high end of the boiler, the water tends to run down to the other end of the boiler, potentially causing the crown sheet (top of the firebox) to be above the water level. Since the fire's hot enough to make the crown sheet fail if there's no water on it, and failure of the crown sheet means a catastrophic boiler explosion—well, you get the picture.
If you keep the nose of the engine pointed uphill, you avoid that problem.
Hope this helps!
Peace, —Peter
Wow, that makes perfect sense. Like I said, I don't know much about steam, but now I know a little more. Thanks Peter!
Tom
potlatcherndbprrBefore the SD-7s the PRR used 2-8-0s that were required to back down the hill to keep water on the crown sheet. I don't know a whole lot about steam locomotives, but wouldn't the steam engine need to run backwards UP the hill to keep water on the crown sheet? That way the water level in the tender stays above the crown sheet. Just curious whether I'm missing something here. Tom
ndbprrBefore the SD-7s the PRR used 2-8-0s that were required to back down the hill to keep water on the crown sheet.
I don't know a whole lot about steam locomotives, but wouldn't the steam engine need to run backwards UP the hill to keep water on the crown sheet? That way the water level in the tender stays above the crown sheet.
Just curious whether I'm missing something here.
I do not know which way they ran but here is a link I posted a couple messages before. Read about one loco after the Wells that exploded. My understanding is they pushed using the front of the loco. It was up to the engineer to keep enough water in the boiler.
http://www.oldmadison.com/madview2.html
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Murphy Siding Cheviot Hill wrote: neil300 wrote: Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it? Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now. What's a rail washer? For traction, wouldn't you want the rails to be sanded?
Cheviot Hill wrote: neil300 wrote: Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?
Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now.
What's a rail washer? For traction, wouldn't you want the rails to be sanded?
Murphy Siding Cheviot Hill wrote: neil300 wrote:Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it? Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now. What's a rail washer? For traction, wouldn't you want the rails to be sanded?
Cheviot Hill wrote: neil300 wrote:Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?
The rail washer is used on the rear of the engine behind the drive wheels to remove the sand and allow the cars to roll better. Yes, you would probably need a lot of sand under the driving wheels and a rail washer to remove the sand.
CZ
rrnut282IIRC, It's called the Reuben Wells. My kids are older now, so it's been a few years since I visited the museum.
Here is a link to the Wells and the "Hill". Before the Wells, there was a rack for a few years but the Wells was not a rack loco. I wonder how much wood the Wells used when working?
Cheviot Hill wrote: Yes it is. The sound effects were pretty lame too. My oldest daughter had nightmares about the engine. I still kid her about it. Has anybody heard of the story about those 2 SD7s? From what I remember, when one or both of those engines were getting shopped, they sent a normal geared SD7 to operate the hill. I don't think it went off the tracks but it was sure one hell of an adventure for the crew. Does anybody know of the story?
Yes it is. The sound effects were pretty lame too. My oldest daughter had nightmares about the engine. I still kid her about it.
Has anybody heard of the story about those 2 SD7s? From what I remember, when one or both of those engines were getting shopped, they sent a normal geared SD7 to operate the hill. I don't think it went off the tracks but it was sure one hell of an adventure for the crew. Does anybody know of the story?
They had that story in the RR readind section of Trains a few years back. I said that the locos had been shopped at an ex-NYC shop and they removed any "foreign components", or anything that the others didn't have. So it came back to the hill with no d/b so it almost ran away.
neil300 wrote:Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?
Reference: TRAINS, July 1962{ The Issue with the W&A "General" on the cover].
7012 ft of track, climbs 412ft for a grade of 5.89%. The Madison & Indianapolis RR, 1st in Indiana, was plotted to go straight without tangents, the inclined plain was completed in 1841. was completed with State money by the State which transferred the line to the M&I organized Feb. 03,1843. First train to Indianapolis ran Oct. 1,1847. The State had laid rails rolled in Wales[England] 45# , in 15'9" and 18' lengths between Madison and Griffith's[ Queensland].The balance laid by the M&I to Indianapolis was strap rails.
Original transit uphill was with eight horses in four teams attached to one wagon. Down grade was by gravity drop, speed controlled by hand brakes, a practice that is reported to have continued until 1880. Apparently the one accident is reported to have been a runaway of several wagons of hogs destined for slaughter in a packing house in Madison, were drowned in the Ohio River, when the runaway failed to make the curve at the bottom of the grade and went into the river. Somewhat delaying their eventual arrival and processing at the packing house at Madison.
"The first successful steam engine on the encline was the MC Bright[0-8-0 type] built by Baldwin. 5 cylinders, 2 inclined 15.5"x20" to power eight 42" Driving wheels. 2 cylinders 17"x18" placed verticall over the boiler, midway between the firebox and the smokebox, the connecting rods worked by these cylinders joined with cranks on a shaft under the boiler, thgis shaft carried a single cog wheel which engaged another of about twice its diameter on a second shaft adjacent to it , and in the same plane. The cog wheel on this latter shaft worked in a rackrail placed in the center of the track. The fifth cylinder by means of a Rube Goldberg rrangement, raised and lowered the cog wheel that engaged the rackrail." This arrangement was used from 1848 to 1868.
The Reuben Wells was originally built as an 0-8-0, JM&I #645 was rebuilt as an 0-10-0, in 1910 another 0-8-0 was added to assist the Reuben Wells.
On Nov.9,1953 two EMD's took over, #8588 and 8589, C-C type, weighted to 360,000# each.Equipped with railwashing devices, wheel slip controls and automatic sanding systems, and dynamic brakes, They were referred to as the "Cadilacs". Train limit was 15 cars, gross weight 350 tons, exclusive of the engine weight.
The information is as reported in Sulzer's article. E-mail me if there is any other info desired.
Cheviot Hill wrote: neil300 wrote:Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it? Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I hope they changed the gearing.
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