PRR Madison Hill

[Anonymous]

Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?

[Modelcar]

....I don't know how well the "search feature" is operating now under this new system but oh...about a year ago we had that subject going rather extensive on here and we brought out a lot of info regarding that "hill"...You might try to find some of that data via the "search".

[ndbprr]

5.89%.  I just looked it up.  Madison is on the Ohio river (hence the grade) and is in the southeast portion of Indiana probably 3/4 of the way acrross to Ohio.  Yes it is still operated sporadically and the short line owns both engines.  Before the SD-7s the PRR used 2-8-0s that were required to back down the hill to keep water on the crown sheet.

[gabe]

5.89%.  I just looked it up.  Madison is on the Ohio river (hence the grade) and is in the southeast portion of Indiana probably 3/4 of the way acrross to Ohio.  Yes it is still operated sporadically and the short line owns both engines.  Before the SD-7s the PRR used 2-8-0s that were required to back down the hill to keep water on the crown sheet.

This is the second time I have heard that the hill is operational.  I do not believe it is.  The tracks look pretty bad.  I have visited it twice, and it truly is an impressive sight.  It is amazing how quickly you are staring at rail level with your head.  I (estimate) it is only about a little over a half mile long though. 

There is a power plant at the bottom of the hill, but it is served via river. 

I am more interested in what industries the line serves in Madison--I assume it serves industries in Madision, as the line looks to be in pretty good shape (for a shortline) until you get to the hill (probably more aptly described as a pit).  But it is far from obvious what industry it serves.

There is a military base nearby, and I have a hunch that is what keeps it in business.  Somebody could tell me about this . . . buy then they would have to kill me . . .

Gabe

[Modelcar]

....Trying to remember...I believe that stretch of railroad was a "cog" railroad at one time....

[locomutt]

5.89%.  I just looked it up.  Madison is on the Ohio river (hence the grade) and is in the southeast portion of Indiana probably 3/4 of the way acrross to Ohio.  Yes it is still operated sporadically and the short line owns both engines.  Before the SD-7s the PRR used 2-8-0s that were required to back down the hill to keep water on the crown sheet.

This is the second time I have heard that the hill is operational.  I do not believe it is.  The tracks look pretty bad.  I have visited it twice, and it truly is an impressive sight.  It is amazing how quickly you are staring at rail level with your head.  I (estimate) it is only about a little over a half mile long though. 

There is a power plant at the bottom of the hill, but it is served via river. 

I am more interested in what industries the line serves in Madison--I assume it serves industries in Madision, as the line looks to be in pretty good shape (for a shortline) until you get to the hill (probably more aptly described as a pit).  But it is far from obvious what industry it serves.

There is a military base nearby, and I have a hunch that is what keeps it in business.  Somebody could tell me about this . . . buy then they would have to kill me . . .

Gabe

To the best of my knowledge,the "Hill" has not been used for quite a few years;any rail traffic
that comes into Madison,is to North Madison at the top of the hill.

The Military installation in that area is Jefferson Proving Ground and I believe it's close
to being shut down.

[timz]

" I (estimate) it is only about a little over a half mile long though."

As I recall it's about 7000 ft long.

[Cheviot Hill]

Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?

Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now.

[rrnut282]

IIRC, It's called the Reuben Wells.  My kids are older now, so it's been a few years since I visited the museum.

[Cheviot Hill]

IIRC, It's called the Reuben Wells.  My kids are older now, so it's been a few years since I visited the museum.

Thats it, the Reuben Wells. I was banging my head against the wall over that one. I was just about ready to look it up on the musium site. Thanks rrnut282!

[rrnut282]

It was an ugly little thing, too.

[Cheviot Hill]

Yes it is. The sound effects were pretty lame too. My oldest daughter had nightmares about the engine. I still kid her about it.

Has anybody heard of the story about those 2 SD7s? From what I remember, when one or both of those engines were getting shopped, they sent a normal geared SD7 to operate the hill. I don't think it went off the tracks but it was sure one hell of an adventure for the crew. Does anybody know of the story?

[bnsfkline]

I don't know the story, but I do know that at least one of the two SD7's survive as a working unit. I believe the 6999 is now TRRA 1751. It was rebuilt by the Manufactures Railway in '99 with a chopped nose, delivered to the TRRA, sent back, they lowered the nose another 6 inches, then redelivered. The unit is not in everyday use, as it is a back up unit, it can be seen sitting in front of the engine house basically anyday, The last time it was used was in October of 2005, right around my Birthday, Saw it leading a transfur to the NS's Luther Yard

[Cheviot Hill]

I hope they changed the gearing.

[Murphy Siding]

Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?

Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now.

     What's a rail washer?  For traction, wouldn't you want the rails to be sanded?

[samfp1943]

Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?

Reference: TRAINS, July 1962{ The Issue with the W&A "General" on the cover].

     "America's Steepest Railroad: Pennsy's Madison Hill takes honors at 5.89 percent" Elmer G.Sulzer

7012 ft of track, climbs 412ft for a grade of 5.89%. The Madison & Indianapolis RR, 1st in Indiana, was plotted to go straight without tangents, the inclined plain was completed in 1841. was completed with State money by the State which transferred the line to the M&I organized Feb. 03,1843. First train to Indianapolis ran Oct. 1,1847. The State had laid rails rolled in Wales[England] 45# , in 15'9" and 18' lengths between Madison and Griffith's[ Queensland].The balance laid by the M&I to Indianapolis was strap rails.

 Original transit uphill was with eight horses in four teams attached to one wagon. Down grade was by gravity drop, speed controlled by hand brakes, a practice that is reported to have continued until 1880.  Apparently the one accident is reported to have been a runaway of several wagons of hogs destined for slaughter in a packing house in Madison, were drowned in the Ohio River, when the runaway failed to make the curve at the bottom of the grade and went into the river. Somewhat delaying their eventual arrival and processing at the packing house at Madison.

 "The first successful steam engine on the encline was the MC Bright[0-8-0 type] built by Baldwin. 5 cylinders, 2 inclined 15.5"x20" to power eight 42" Driving wheels. 2 cylinders 17"x18" placed verticall over the boiler, midway between the firebox and the smokebox, the connecting rods worked by these cylinders joined with cranks on a shaft under the boiler, thgis shaft carried a single cog wheel which engaged another of about twice its diameter on a second shaft adjacent to it , and in the same plane. The cog wheel on this latter shaft worked in a rackrail placed in the center of the track. The fifth cylinder by means of a Rube Goldberg rrangement, raised and lowered the cog wheel that engaged the rackrail." This arrangement was used from 1848 to 1868.

The Reuben Wells was originally built as an 0-8-0, JM&I #645 was rebuilt as an 0-10-0, in 1910 another 0-8-0 was added to assist the Reuben Wells.

On Nov.9,1953 two EMD's took over, #8588 and 8589, C-C type, weighted to 360,000# each.Equipped with railwashing devices, wheel slip controls and automatic sanding systems, and dynamic brakes, They were referred to as the "Cadilacs". Train limit was 15 cars, gross weight 350 tons, exclusive of the engine weight.

The information is as reported in Sulzer's article. E-mail me if there is any other info desired.

 

 

[Anonymous]

The Madison depot is still in use as the local historical society's museum. Lot's of RR stuff there. Madison is a neat town in its own right. There is a restored saddle tree factory in town also. The tracks are still there on the incline (awsome!) but are not connected at the top.

After Conrail, those 2 SD7s were used as hump pushers at Allentown PA.

[joseph2]

Rail washers were used to get leaves off of the track,wet leaves are slippery.

[Anonymous]

Yes it is. The sound effects were pretty lame too. My oldest daughter had nightmares about the engine. I still kid her about it.

Has anybody heard of the story about those 2 SD7s? From what I remember, when one or both of those engines were getting shopped, they sent a normal geared SD7 to operate the hill. I don't think it went off the tracks but it was sure one hell of an adventure for the crew. Does anybody know of the story?

They had that story in the RR readind section of Trains a few years back. I said that the locos had been shopped at an ex-NYC shop and they removed any "foreign components", or anything that the others didn't have. So it came back to the hill with no d/b so it almost ran away.

[Cheviot Hill]

I thought there was a story about it somewhere that I read once. You wouldn't happen to know what trains edition that it was in would you?

[richg1998]

rrnut282

IIRC, It's called the Reuben Wells.  My kids are older now, so it's been a few years since I visited the museum.

 

Here is a link to the Wells and the "Hill". Before the Wells, there was a rack for a few years but the Wells was not a rack loco. I wonder how much wood the Wells used when working?

http://www.oldmadison.com/madview2.html

Rich

[CAZEPHYR]

 

Murphy Siding

Cheviot Hill wrote:

neil300 wrote:

Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?

Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now.

 

     What's a rail washer?  For traction, wouldn't you want the rails to be sanded?

 

The rail washer is used on the rear of the engine behind the drive wheels to remove the sand and allow the cars to roll better.   Yes, you would probably need a lot of sand under the driving wheels and a rail washer to remove the sand. 

CZ

[eolafan]

Murphy Siding

Cheviot Hill wrote:

neil300 wrote:

Can anyone fill me in about this? I know the the Pennsy had two SD specially built for the grade and that it was 5.71% if I remember correctly. But where is it and is someone still using it?

 

Yes there were 2 SD7s 6998 and 6999 (class ER15ax, with 65:12 gear ratios, six cylinder compressors, and rail washers with heaters). To my knowledge, the line has not been used in almost 30 years. The 1.3 mile hill still has the track in place. There was some talk of the City of Madison restoring the line for a tourist attraction, within the last few years, but quickly dropped those plans when they realized what it would cost. Side note. The steam engine that ran on that hill still survives. It's at the Indianapolis Childrens Musium on display. It's name escapes me now.

 

 

     What's a rail washer?  For traction, wouldn't you want the rails to be sanded?

IIRC in such instances, rail washers are utilized to wash grease and oil, etc. off the rails...then sand is applied and together those two operations maximize adhesion.

[potlatcher]

ndbprr

Before the SD-7s the PRR used 2-8-0s that were required to back down the hill to keep water on the crown sheet.

I don't know a whole lot about steam locomotives, but wouldn't the steam engine need to run backwards UP the hill to keep water on the crown sheet?  That way the water level in the tender stays above the crown sheet.

Just curious whether I'm missing something here.

Tom

[richg1998]

potlatcher

ndbprr

Before the SD-7s the PRR used 2-8-0s that were required to back down the hill to keep water on the crown sheet.

I don't know a whole lot about steam locomotives, but wouldn't the steam engine need to run backwards UP the hill to keep water on the crown sheet?  That way the water level in the tender stays above the crown sheet.

Just curious whether I'm missing something here.

Tom

 

I do not know which way they ran but here is a link I posted a couple messages before. Read about one loco after the Wells that exploded. My understanding is they pushed using the front of the loco. It was up to the engineer to keep enough water in the boiler.

http://www.oldmadison.com/madview2.html

Rich

[PRRrailfan]

 

Locomotives 8588 and 8589 were specially built SD-7 locomotives built for use on the Madison grade.  Only one was used at a time, and the other worked the hump at Hawthorne yard when not at Madison grade.  Pennsy shops added the rail washers to clean the leaves and other debris off the rails when pulling uphill.  Because of the severe grade, special rules applied to operation on this section of track.  I doubt that any regular SD-7 operated on this grade, since Pennsy did not own any other SD-7's although they had 25 SD-9 locomotives.  For more details, see an article by Dan Davidson in Vol 4, No 1 Buckeye Chapter of PRRTHS newsletter.  

[phbrown]

You want the firebox at the low end of the boiler.  You can pump water from the tender into the boiler (locomotives did so anyway), but the boiler doesn't have internal baffles to keep the water from sloshing end-to-end.  So if the firebox is at the high end of the boiler, the water tends to run down to the other end of the boiler, potentially causing the crown sheet (top of the firebox) to be above the water level.  Since the fire's hot enough to make the crown sheet fail if there's no water on it, and failure of the crown sheet means a catastrophic boiler explosion—well, you get the picture.

If you keep the nose of the engine pointed uphill, you avoid that problem.

Hope this helps!

Peace,
—Peter

[potlatcher]

phbrown

You want the firebox at the low end of the boiler.  You can pump water from the tender into the boiler (locomotives did so anyway), but the boiler doesn't have internal baffles to keep the water from sloshing end-to-end.  So if the firebox is at the high end of the boiler, the water tends to run down to the other end of the boiler, potentially causing the crown sheet (top of the firebox) to be above the water level.  Since the fire's hot enough to make the crown sheet fail if there's no water on it, and failure of the crown sheet means a catastrophic boiler explosion—well, you get the picture.

If you keep the nose of the engine pointed uphill, you avoid that problem.

Hope this helps!

Peace,
—Peter

Wow, that makes perfect sense.  Like I said, I don't know much about steam, but now I know a little more.  Thanks Peter!

Tom

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

I remember that story, too.  I looked in the ''Index to Magazines'' at the bottom of the page / below last night, but couldn't find it that way.  If I run across it and remember, I'll post it here - if no one else does so first.

- PDN.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Cheviot Hill

I thought there was a story about it somewhere that I read once. You wouldn't happen to know what trains edition that it was in would you?

Got it !! 

Selected Railroad Reading: Is this Train in emergency?
Trains, April 2001 page 58
Runaway, kind of, on Madison Hill
( "CLARK, WARNER J.", INDIANA, PC, REMINISCENCE, TRN )

- PDN.