If You Don't Like Train Horns, Why Do You Live By The Tracks...?

[AMTK161]

Cognative disinence??? Dadgum brother, I've only had a community college education so I had to look that one up! First off, you didn't spell either word correctly, but I found "cognitive dissonance" and it doesn't have anything to do with this topic. There is no conflict with the truth.

"Why don't I just move?" Ah, the most predictable response. So what is your position in city government?

You missed the main point. 8 years ago, the horns were not as LOUD as they are now. Granted I am no industry expert, but someone could surely enlighten us as to the theory presented a few years ago that if we only made the horns ridiculously LOUDER then we could slow down the rate of crossing fatalities.

I like the posts by The AnitGates, always a fresh perspective on things. I would say that he has a good point in our society.

[AMTK161]

Cognative disinence??? Dadgum brother, I've only had a community college education so I had to look that one up! First off, you didn't spell either word correctly, but I found "cognitive dissonance" and it doesn't have anything to do with this topic. There is no conflict with the truth.

"Why don't I just move?" Ah, the most predictable response. So what is your position in city government?

You missed the main point. 8 years ago, the horns were not as LOUD as they are now. Granted I am no industry expert, but someone could surely enlighten us as to the theory presented a few years ago that if we only made the horns ridiculously LOUDER then we could slow down the rate of crossing fatalities.

I like the posts by The AnitGates, always a fresh perspective on things. I would say that he has a good point in our society.

[One Track Mind]

Cognative disinence??? Dadgum brother, I've only had a community college education so I had to look that one up! First off, you didn't spell either word correctly, but I found "cognitive dissonance" and it doesn't have anything to do with this topic. There is no conflict with the truth.

"Why don't I just move?" Ah, the most predictable response. So what is your position in city government?

You missed the main point. 8 years ago, the horns were not as LOUD as they are now. Granted I am no industry expert, but someone could surely enlighten us as to the theory presented a few years ago that if we only made the horns ridiculously LOUDER then we could slow down the rate of crossing fatalities.

I like the posts by The AnitGates, always a fresh perspective on things. I would say that he has a good point in our society.

[AMTK161]

But in regard to your original post: you said you moved to the location 8 yrs ago. That was your choice. Don't like it? Move. Sell the place to some

other sucker.

 

 

Well said! Couldn't have done it better myself.

I pose this question to One Track Mind:

Cognative disinence?

[Anonymous]

Well, we've already heard from the devils advocate, so lets try one from the "shyster's advocate" side of the coin.

Isn't it the american way to try and better ones personal situation through the means available to them?

Suppose in illustration, there is a house that would appraise for $250,000 except for the noisy railroad grade crossing  half a bock away.  Because of this crossing, lets say the fair value of the house is reduced to $175,000.  The former owner, having limited luck selling, (because of the noise issue) ends up dumping the house for $140,000, because they had other priorities ansd had to move on with their affairs.

So, the new owner gets a real bargain.

But, if through whining, and moaning, and groaning, he can drum up a citizen's activists committee, and they push through legislation that forces the issue and the noise problem is reduced by half.....as far as the whiner is concerned, isn't he just guilty of working the american way in his favor?

Afterall, if the end result is that his house now has a market value of $220,000...what has he really done that is so "wrong"?

[zugmann]

When I asked why the train crews were required to wear ear protection, I was being a little too sarcastic. While what any member of the public who lives or works near a crossing is not subjected to the abuse of the horns for a "duration" I would argue that at a minimum of 47,000 trains blowing for the crossing in 8 years, something could be said for "repetition."

If you are that worried - wear ear protection at home. 

But in regard to your original post: you said you moved to the location 8 yrs ago.  That was your choice. Don't like it?  Move.  Sell the place to some other sucker.

The one problem I have with stationary horns is what happens if they fail?  If a standard set of crossing flashers or gates fail - there's always the horn on the locomotive to act as a warning of last resort, and that will be sounded regardless.   But if the flashers and stationary horn fail, and the crew is none the wiser, the locomotive horn may not be sounded or sounded too late.  Of course with the level of soundproofing in today's automobiles, not to mention the facts that the driver is has their radio cranked up, and are checking voicemail in their cellphone, I doubt any horn (or crossing protection) would prove adequate.  And that doesn't count the people who know darned well the train is coming, but can't be inconvenienced for 5 minutes.  So maybe the whole horn issue is a moot point.

[One Track Mind]

When I asked why the train crews were required to wear ear protection, I was being a little too sarcastic. While what any member of the public who lives or works near a crossing is not subjected to the abuse of the horns for a "duration" I would argue that at a minimum of 47,000 trains blowing for the crossing in 8 years, something could be said for "repetition."

[Train 284]

What an idiot! The cops can't do anything! Trains have horns and they use them......duh!!! You should call the cops on him. ; )

[n012944]

I Train crews are required to wear ear protection on the job...wonder why that is? But there is no protection for the public.

I

 

That is because none is needed.  A train crew not only has the horn blaring in its ear, but also the sound of the engine, for up to 12 hours.  It is the constant sound for that long that will damage hearing, not the short duration.  Look at it this way, many small airports still board passengers on the ground without a jetway.  Passengers are not required to wear hearing protection because they are exposed to the sound for a short period of time.  However airline workers, who are exposed to the sound for most of their shift, are because of the duration.

 

Bert

[TomDiehl]

We have the same situation at Sun Cityu & Surprise ,Arizona with BNSF. Retirees in those two communities are complaining about train horns. 25 years ago, this was arural area.

But were the trains running through this "rural area" 25 years ago?

[scjbcruz]

We have the same situation at Sun Cityu & Surprise ,Arizona with BNSF. Retirees in those two communities are complaining about train horns. 25 years ago, this was arural area.

[tree68]

Didn't want to take up space with Iowa Guy's entire post, so if you need to go back and read it....

I'm sure someone with a decibel meter could show there is little difference between the stationary horns and train horns - in fact, they could actually be louder and it wouldn't change one thing - the people influenced the railroad and got their way.  The thrill of victory more than compensates for their loss of hearing....

We should consider that the sound source is now fixed at the crossing (where it it intended to be heard, regardless of the source).  Before, if you lived alongside the tracks quarter mile or so on either side of the crossing, you had the horn blowing right in your back yard.  Now only the people right next to the crossing get the full effect...  For the motorist, there is now no excuse that the sound of the horn was blocked by buildings/plants/what-have-you.  The horn is always right there at the crossing.

As much as we love those 5 chimes, this could be progress on the safety front (and some positive public relations).

[CNW 6000]

(Besides, have you ever calmly responded to someone who really wants an argument, and watched them get madder and madder when you won't match egos with them?  )

Everyday at work and it's priceless!

[JSGreen]

 ...dont get into a debate, shouting match, or Pee-ing contest with folks who do that sort of thing....if you feel you have to respond, just kindly invite him to do what he has to do, and go about your business.  Getting into a shouting match isnt going to help other rail fans, and if a local citizen calls a local cop, guess who will get the benefit of any doubt?  If you feel you have defend the public's right to be a rail fan, and you do so vocally (and possibly obnoxiously), about 5 or 6 different things can happen, and only one of them is good...

 

(Besides, have you ever calmly responded to someone who really wants an argument, and watched them get madder and madder when you won't match egos with them?  )

[One Track Mind]

OK, here comes the devil's advocate. I've got as much railfan blood in me as any of you, and I run a model train shop, so don't think I am being antagonistic toward the railroads. But as someone who is nearing at least partial deafness in large part to train horns, let me explain the other side of the fence.

My store is located 100' from the mainline. About 20 trains a day pass by here during business hours and most of my customers love watching the action. However we are also right next to a crossing at a point where many trains are stopped before they are allowed to proceed into the main part of Little Rock. I moved the store down here about 8 years ago.

Do I have a right to complain about train horns? You bet.

You want to argue that the railroad was there first? You want to say anything else more obvious?

I have customers and friends who are crew members, so hopefully this won't cause any hard feelings, but I've always understood there is a standard practice for how long or how often to blow horns at crossings. I also understand that if I just hit someone at a crossing, which happens with alarming frequency in our state, that I would be more apt to sound the horn more than is really necessary.

But when a train that is stopped a half mile from the crossing and it is going to take you a while to reach the crossing and you reach the crossing at 10 mph, WHY start blowing the horn immediately upon movement and lay on it for that long before you even get close to the crossing?

I also understand that some friendly toots are part of railroading, but at this crossing some are constantly sounding the horn AFTER they have passed through the crossing. The next crossing is about a mile up the tracks.

And in the last 8 years, someone got the bright idea that if you make the horns as obnoxiously loud as you can, that will prevent crossing accidents. The decibel level of the horn has nothing to do with it. It's not that people don't hear the horns, it's that they do not want to wait. They do not want to be told to stop. They think they are in a hurry.

I read where the decibel level of a regular push lawn mower was at the upper level of safety for your ears. A couple months ago when I was mowing the yard out front, a train came by and the horn obliterated the sound of the mower. Could not tell that the mower was making any noise because the train horn drowned it out. Is it really necessary for horns to be THAT loud?

So sure, the trains were here before I moved beside the tracks. But 8 years ago these horns were not as loud as they are now. Train crews are required to wear ear protection on the job...wonder why that is? But there is no protection for the public.

I enjoy seeing trains as much as anyone, but yeah, I think the public has a right to complain some. OK my whining here is done.

 

[SchemerBob]

 

I live in Ames, Iowa, on the UP overland main line, and we no longer get to enjoy the sound of train horns in our city. Ames is one of two or three towns on the UP system that has been a test site for the stationary crossing horn system -- where there are electronic "horn sounds" that come through speakers mounted on poles at the crossing. The sound mimics the "long-long-short-long" crossing cadence. They start automatically as the train approaches, and continue until the lead engine passes the crossing. The reason these were installed? Well, because people who lived near the tracks complained a lot about the train horns, of course! So, the city and railroad spent a great deal of money to put these up. I believe every crossing in the city limits on the main line now has these. There is also a branch line that passes through major residential areas, but the volume of traffic on that line is far less, so none of the electronic horns have been put up there -- yet.

These have been up for about eight years now, and I have not heard any comments, either pro or con, from residents who live near the tracks, so I guess you'd have to say they're a success. But for railfans, one of the greatest parts about train watching has been taken away with no more live train horns sounding. And, let me tell you, those electronic horns are still pretty darned loud! I've been a good block away from crossings when they start going off and I have really jumped! When the engineer manually blows the train horns, you know the train is approaching and you're ready for it. I live at least a mile from the tracks, and when conditions are right, I can clearly hear the electronic horns blasting, from one end of town to the other, as the train passes. I have a hard time believing the noise factor is that much reduced for people who live near the tracks. It may be an improvement, but I'll bet some people still don't like it.

And, of course, engineers still sometimes sound the train horns if the electronic horns aren't working (which sometimes happens) or if they see some type of potentially dangerous situation on the tracks ahead of them. And, wouldn't you know, about a year ago there was a guy who was in the news because he claimed engineers were still routinely blowing the horns when they passed his house (not true) and he was going to sue the railroad for harrassment! For me, I say the same rule that applies to airports should apply to railroads -- you know it's there when you buy the house -- if you don't like the noise, don't buy the house! Bring back the train-mounted horns controlled by a real, live person on the train! 

And a few days ago I heard on the radio that some guy was killed by a UP freight train in Ames. Now how can that possabily happen? This guy must have been drunk or something, because they said the engine crew saw the man and tried to stop. But I'm sure no train horns throughout the city didn't help anything; he probably didn't even hear it coming until it was too late.

[zgardner18]

How about this Last week I flew out of John Wayne Airport in Orange County where a manditory modified take-off is in order.  The plane asends into the air at a steeper angle then levels off while cutting the engines as the jetplane cruises out over the ocean.  All of this is due to the residents of the area joining together to band the noise at take-off. 

Same for the reason that El Toro Naval Base is no longer in use (Besides Clinton military base shutdones). 

It is told that there is a sign at El Toro stating: "Here that?  That is the sound of Freedom" (or somthing like that)

I lose my mind when I think of these examples of how the pompus a** want the convience of an airport but don't want the sound.  The OC just loves to sit up looking down on the rest of us Southern Californians demanding us to ask "How High" when they require us to jump.   I say to the OC and anyone else that can't stand it: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!" 

I love jets as much as I love trains, and I think that people should adapt and except or move elsewhere.  "Oow, I want an airport five minutes away, but I don't want all that noise."  Get over it! you can't have the best of both worlds all the time.  (I guess you can if you have money and politics behind you) Boy are we a currupt society.

[n012944]

 For me, I say the same rule that applies to airports should apply to railroads -- you know it's there when you buy the house -- if you don't like the noise, don't buy the house! 

 

If you look at some of the issues airports have, you would see that the rule does not apply to them either. 

 

Bert

[Anonymous]

. 

There are no rules regarding such behavior. 

I actually find that a bit of a surprise

I thought NS had "a rule for everything"  ?

[Iowa Guy]

 

I live in Ames, Iowa, on the UP overland main line, and we no longer get to enjoy the sound of train horns in our city. Ames is one of two or three towns on the UP system that has been a test site for the stationary crossing horn system -- where there are electronic "horn sounds" that come through speakers mounted on poles at the crossing. The sound mimics the "long-long-short-long" crossing cadence. They start automatically as the train approaches, and continue until the lead engine passes the crossing. The reason these were installed? Well, because people who lived near the tracks complained a lot about the train horns, of course! So, the city and railroad spent a great deal of money to put these up. I believe every crossing in the city limits on the main line now has these. There is also a branch line that passes through major residential areas, but the volume of traffic on that line is far less, so none of the electronic horns have been put up there -- yet.

These have been up for about eight years now, and I have not heard any comments, either pro or con, from residents who live near the tracks, so I guess you'd have to say they're a success. But for railfans, one of the greatest parts about train watching has been taken away with no more live train horns sounding. And, let me tell you, those electronic horns are still pretty darned loud! I've been a good block away from crossings when they start going off and I have really jumped! When the engineer manually blows the train horns, you know the train is approaching and you're ready for it. I live at least a mile from the tracks, and when conditions are right, I can clearly hear the electronic horns blasting, from one end of town to the other, as the train passes. I have a hard time believing the noise factor is that much reduced for people who live near the tracks. It may be an improvement, but I'll bet some people still don't like it.

And, of course, engineers still sometimes sound the train horns if the electronic horns aren't working (which sometimes happens) or if they see some type of potentially dangerous situation on the tracks ahead of them. And, wouldn't you know, about a year ago there was a guy who was in the news because he claimed engineers were still routinely blowing the horns when they passed his house (not true) and he was going to sue the railroad for harrassment! For me, I say the same rule that applies to airports should apply to railroads -- you know it's there when you buy the house -- if you don't like the noise, don't buy the house! Bring back the train-mounted horns controlled by a real, live person on the train! 

[DrummingTrainfan]

Then when the cops come you complain this guy is harassing you...

[Anonymous]

When I was reading this title, i was reminded of that stupid saying.. If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around, did it make a sound?

So first off: YES! Anyhting in motion that comesin contact with something not in motion will cause an audible noise, depending on the speed and material used in construction- it may make a huge noise rather then sound.

Now for this: It was my impression, and is in the CP rail rule book that:

Any Crossing that does not meet the '100% gaurded' category is not only subject to the standard crossing-whistle pattern, it is subject to any noise, at any volume in order to keep A) the crossing clear, or B) People near by informed.

Here is what is required for complete crossing protection (According to CP rail)

1- Standard Reflective Crossbuck
2- Lights ( Red in colour) along with Bell (1 or 2 audible tones per second)-
3- Gates that block a minimum of one lane of traffic or an entire sidewalk.
4- Speed Detector-  Calculates speed and distance of an approaching train so the system can time accurately when to lower the gates, and when to raise them-

With those four things, a Crossing is 100% protected, and is immediately placed on the roll to be evaluated for a cease-whistle status. Once it has been granted, any Engineer caught blowing at these crossings without valid reason wouldcome under severe penalties.

If you have a crossing that meets numbers 1-3, you have a crossing that is only 95% protected,or .95
This crossing can still have awhistle exemption, but an engineer is not subject to any ruling regarding whistleing- if need be, he can use the horn as much as needed, and any complaintes generated will simply be returned, asking the municipality to upgrade crossing equipment.

And lastly- Like most crossings, if it only meets sections 1 and 2,or just secion 1 all by itslef, it can in no way be exempted from whistling.  Engineers are encouragedtouse the horn as loud as possible in thse situations, and speratically if need be (For example- if someone cheats the crossing, and the train is still a considerable distance away- Abandoning the regular crossing pattern and taking up a random one is not unusual, and will result in no diciplinary action.)

and yes, like posted above, any engineer who is distacted by such a small thing, ought to take up owning a hot dog stand on the corner of 33rd and Broadway.

Reminder, you are on public property and are not bound by any specificrules,unless the RR has specific rules regarding the crossingyou were at, AND EVEN IF that rings true, it is up to the engineer to respect them, as you are not in control of that.

Next time don't give in to easily- tell the guy- he should call the police; it may be a good thing to have thme around for his protection. Unless he was bigger then you- in which case; run.

Go back there next time, with a guy that could snapanyone in half- I would be interested to know if he would say anyhting at that point.

If it is a true fact that this man was bigger then you; his behavior was absolutely unexcuseable. he used his size as an advantage knowing he was not on any legal firmground whatsoever, also called bullying. I, like most people, have a zero tollerance for such an act.  This guy needs to be pulled up and put to shame. As my grandfather would say, Aprehend, Adhere and Abide. make sure that loser knows the way the real world works. you need to go back and have a chat with him.

[Mookie]

Like the rest of you, my first thought is snip him off!  But Dad showed the best course of action.  Just leave and don't push anyone's button.  This teaches a better, safer lesson than getting purple in the face and yelling at the source of irritation. 

I am sure there are other places to watch that would be equally as good and poo on him for being such a curmudgeon!

Mz Mook

[AMTK161]

Thanks for the support, guys!

 

Its a real shame, that's for sure.  If a person doesn't like trains then move.

[wallyworld]

This could be filed under "cranks disturb our peace." Here's a related story of self appointed politically correct cranks. In their infinite wisdom, the Charlotte cops handed out spare radar detectors to neighborhoods so that ever vigilant neighbors could train their guns on folks in their own neighborhoods. The results were broadcast on a news report that showed some shlump sitting in his suv, gun in hand, reporting his fellow citizens were exceeding the 25 mph limit by 5 mph. Give me a break. Reporting trains blowing horns to the cops? I would have told this moron I would turn his prissy self in for stalking and harrassment.

[CNW 6000]

It's nice when engineers accomodate railfans.  I lived next to the old CNW/FRVR/WC/CN mainline for years.  Most of the neighbors didn't mind the occasional horn.  If one held it down for a longer duration then that might be an issue.  Screw that crabby old man!  LOL!

[SchemerBob]

Oh, come on...a couple toots of the horn for a railfan. That's not too disturbing!

[zardoz]

LOL, he bluffed, you blinked.

He won.

I have to wonder, however. If "tampering" with an engineer and causing him to deviate from his normal course of duty, is some kind of "no-no"

Surely the distraction is not something the engineer's employers would be pleased with.

If an engineer is so distracted by someone 'asking' for the horn to be sounded, then the engineer ought to be working an assembly line. 

There are no rules regarding such behavior.  I was always glad to accomodate any railfan, whiney public be damned!

[Poppa_Zit]

There are a lot of people in LaFox who have their panties in a wad these days over the trains (UP Overland Route/Metra line). Which of course were there first.

Trying to stave off progress and uban sprawl and live in a Mayberry-like setting, their once-sleepy little holler now sports a new Metra station and parking lot in a former farm field 200 feet west of the grade crossing. There's also a new subdivision on former agra land going in. This all happened when Metra extended its commuter service past Geneva through LaFox and to Elburn recently.

[james saunders]

The greenies who think that a horn blowing disturbs wildlife and the peace strike again, whilst they then drive off in their 1972 bomb of a car which destroys more than what a train ever could.



seriously, I do it all the time, Here in Aus they are known to use the horn lightly, it doesn't hurt getting an extra toot or two does it?