SSW expantion - What might have been???

[Anonymous]

Today at school, I was in the lunch line when I started thinking were would the Cotton Belt be today if they had expaned. I thought up this crazy idea but could this have ever happen. Here goes. As most SSW fans know the SSW went through Missouri, Arkansas, and Texas. Now heres were it get fictional, the SSW expaned the line from St. Louis to Chicago and on to Indiapolis to the East. In Texas the line was expaned from Tyler to Houston and on to Corpus Christi. The SSW then took over theTexas & New Orleans with track from Austin to New Orleans. Then a line from St. Louis to Kansas City Mo. was built and track was laid from Kansas City thru Oklahoma to Dallas TX..
The the SSW took over the Texas and Pacific and ran trains from Fort worth to El Paso and interchanging with th SP. Are you still with me[?][?][?]
The SSW then saw trackged right over the SP thru New Mexico and Arizona. Then the SSW built track from Texas to Arizona. THIS IS TRUE!!! THE SP DID TAKE OVER THE SSW..........but with the SSW expaning, the SP would of been a short line compared to the new SSW thus the SSW took over the SP.[:)][:)][:)]
Even though this NEVER HAPPENED[:(][:(][:(], was there any hope of expantion for the Cotton Belt[?][?][?]

Every day I wished this would of happened.

[Anonymous]

Today at school, I was in the lunch line when I started thinking were would the Cotton Belt be today if they had expaned. I thought up this crazy idea but could this have ever happen. Here goes. As most SSW fans know the SSW went through Missouri, Arkansas, and Texas. Now heres were it get fictional, the SSW expaned the line from St. Louis to Chicago and on to Indiapolis to the East. In Texas the line was expaned from Tyler to Houston and on to Corpus Christi. The SSW then took over theTexas & New Orleans with track from Austin to New Orleans. Then a line from St. Louis to Kansas City Mo. was built and track was laid from Kansas City thru Oklahoma to Dallas TX..
The the SSW took over the Texas and Pacific and ran trains from Fort worth to El Paso and interchanging with th SP. Are you still with me[?][?][?]
The SSW then saw trackged right over the SP thru New Mexico and Arizona. Then the SSW built track from Texas to Arizona. THIS IS TRUE!!! THE SP DID TAKE OVER THE SSW..........but with the SSW expaning, the SP would of been a short line compared to the new SSW thus the SSW took over the SP.[:)][:)][:)]
Even though this NEVER HAPPENED[:(][:(][:(], was there any hope of expantion for the Cotton Belt[?][?][?]

Every day I wished this would of happened.

[cabforward]

you dont give years for when things might have happened.. when might ssw have owned the tp?

in '69, i rode a tp pass. train thru la.. it seemed to me that tp managed the r-o-w, but mp ran the trains.. i never saw rolling stock with 'tp' on it.. employees at pass. stops answered the phone with 'tp rail'..

during the single ride i made to n.o., the 2-3 car run pulled into a siding to allow a freight to pass.. that left a strange impression.. never thought a pass. run would pull over for a freight..

[cabforward]

you dont give years for when things might have happened.. when might ssw have owned the tp?

in '69, i rode a tp pass. train thru la.. it seemed to me that tp managed the r-o-w, but mp ran the trains.. i never saw rolling stock with 'tp' on it.. employees at pass. stops answered the phone with 'tp rail'..

during the single ride i made to n.o., the 2-3 car run pulled into a siding to allow a freight to pass.. that left a strange impression.. never thought a pass. run would pull over for a freight..

[Anonymous]

From what I have read, the SLSW was considered to be a subsidiary of SP for quite awhile.

I don't think the Cotton Belt had the kind of capital necessary to expand beyond its existing routes.

[Anonymous]

From what I have read, the SLSW was considered to be a subsidiary of SP for quite awhile.

I don't think the Cotton Belt had the kind of capital necessary to expand beyond its existing routes.

[kenneo]

The TP and the TNO were separate from the MP and SP because of Texas law. Any railroad operating in Texas had to have its headquarters in Texas. So, you have the TNO/SP/SSW, TP/MP, FWD/CS/CBQ. The BN was formed prior to the change in Texas law which is why their HQ is in Texas and the UP's is not.

[kenneo]

The TP and the TNO were separate from the MP and SP because of Texas law. Any railroad operating in Texas had to have its headquarters in Texas. So, you have the TNO/SP/SSW, TP/MP, FWD/CS/CBQ. The BN was formed prior to the change in Texas law which is why their HQ is in Texas and the UP's is not.

[Anonymous]

If the SSW was a subsidiary of the SP, then why didn't the SP invest for exspantion for the Cotton Belt???
To me that dosn't make since. It seems like Southern Pacific didn't want to exspan the line. With Southen Pacific's Lines in Californa, a line to Houston in the gulf and industrise in the mid-west would double any income. To me it doesn't make a bit of since!!!
As for Texas laws, the SSW could move their HQ to Tyler, Texas.
Maybe with more rail and income the SP AND the SSW would still be around today and not in the big mess called Union Pacific!!!

[Anonymous]

If the SSW was a subsidiary of the SP, then why didn't the SP invest for exspantion for the Cotton Belt???
To me that dosn't make since. It seems like Southern Pacific didn't want to exspan the line. With Southen Pacific's Lines in Californa, a line to Houston in the gulf and industrise in the mid-west would double any income. To me it doesn't make a bit of since!!!
As for Texas laws, the SSW could move their HQ to Tyler, Texas.
Maybe with more rail and income the SP AND the SSW would still be around today and not in the big mess called Union Pacific!!!

[WM7471]

When Union Pacific was in the process of swallowing SP. Conrail tried to get the STB to split the Cotton Belt off from the rest of SP so that they could aquire it. The idea was to tap into the Cotton Belt's Gulf Coast chemical traffic to the Northeast. However, the STB didn't go along with the idea and the SSW became part of UP.

Such a move would have changed a lot of things...Blue engines in Houston. And I doubt that Conrail would have been bought by NS and CSX.

While I have no way of knowing, I wonder if UP thought Conrail might have been eyeing all of SP?

[WM7471]

When Union Pacific was in the process of swallowing SP. Conrail tried to get the STB to split the Cotton Belt off from the rest of SP so that they could aquire it. The idea was to tap into the Cotton Belt's Gulf Coast chemical traffic to the Northeast. However, the STB didn't go along with the idea and the SSW became part of UP.

Such a move would have changed a lot of things...Blue engines in Houston. And I doubt that Conrail would have been bought by NS and CSX.

While I have no way of knowing, I wonder if UP thought Conrail might have been eyeing all of SP?

[Anonymous]

Bryan, my guess is that SP already had the necessary lines through Texas and the Gulf Coast without expanding the SLSW route. I think one of the biggest benefits to SP from the Cotton Belt was the latter's route into (East) St. Louis and the BLUE STREAK MERCHANDISE traffic which SP handled from TX to CA.

[Anonymous]

Bryan, my guess is that SP already had the necessary lines through Texas and the Gulf Coast without expanding the SLSW route. I think one of the biggest benefits to SP from the Cotton Belt was the latter's route into (East) St. Louis and the BLUE STREAK MERCHANDISE traffic which SP handled from TX to CA.

[edblysard]

Bryan,
SP didnt need to expand in Texas, here in Houston, there is Englewood, one of the largest yards in the state, and the Hardy street yard, with a backshop that did, on several occasions, built locomotives from the frame up.
The Sunset route, all the way from Florida to LA.
Houston was a SP city, if it came in here, just about had to travel on SP track somewhere, the regions headquarters were here.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Bryan,
SP didnt need to expand in Texas, here in Houston, there is Englewood, one of the largest yards in the state, and the Hardy street yard, with a backshop that did, on several occasions, built locomotives from the frame up.
The Sunset route, all the way from Florida to LA.
Houston was a SP city, if it came in here, just about had to travel on SP track somewhere, the regions headquarters were here.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[cabforward]

the old sp did not extend beyond new orleans.. the 'sunset ltd.', formerly sp, now amtrak, was extended from n.o. to jaxville after amtrak took over..

i don't know who owns the r-o-w, probably csx..

[cabforward]

the old sp did not extend beyond new orleans.. the 'sunset ltd.', formerly sp, now amtrak, was extended from n.o. to jaxville after amtrak took over..

i don't know who owns the r-o-w, probably csx..

[favuprailroadfan]

At one point, the SSW almost reached Kansas City over trackage rights. Ever heard of the Golden State Route? When the Rock Island disappeared to the SP, SSW was handed the portion of this route from Topeka KS to Santa Rosa NM. The way that all this happened is kind of strange. SSW leased the line to SP, because the SSW was just a part of the SP. SP owned the line from there to El Paso. Somehow and someway this worked out for both of them, because I guess they were both making money doing it this way. I am not a financial type of person so I don't know. But unfortanataly, UP now owns it all and I wish I could see an entire lashup of solid SP and SSW units one last time.

Laters, Dru

[favuprailroadfan]

At one point, the SSW almost reached Kansas City over trackage rights. Ever heard of the Golden State Route? When the Rock Island disappeared to the SP, SSW was handed the portion of this route from Topeka KS to Santa Rosa NM. The way that all this happened is kind of strange. SSW leased the line to SP, because the SSW was just a part of the SP. SP owned the line from there to El Paso. Somehow and someway this worked out for both of them, because I guess they were both making money doing it this way. I am not a financial type of person so I don't know. But unfortanataly, UP now owns it all and I wish I could see an entire lashup of solid SP and SSW units one last time.

Laters, Dru

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by WM7471

When Union Pacific was in the process of swallowing SP. Conrail tried to get the STB to split the Cotton Belt off from the rest of SP so that they could aquire it. The idea was to tap into the Cotton Belt's Gulf Coast chemical traffic to the Northeast. However, the STB didn't go along with the idea and the SSW became part of UP.

Such a move would have changed a lot of things...Blue engines in Houston. And I doubt that Conrail would have been bought by NS and CSX.

While I have no way of knowing, I wonder if UP thought Conrail might have been eyeing all of SP?

It is to bad that SP-SSW didn't buy Conrail or vise versa. A one railroad trascon route. I was not a big Conrail fan (sure wish I would have had Conrail stock the first day of issue) but I sure hated to see it go, and especially being split between two other railroads. And while we are dreaming let's add a special passenger train from New York to LA, sounds good doesn't it? I much rather would have seen a Sp/SSW/Conrail merger than what has happened. If that would have happened Sp/Conrail could have still been around. And that's a better deal. [:p]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by WM7471

When Union Pacific was in the process of swallowing SP. Conrail tried to get the STB to split the Cotton Belt off from the rest of SP so that they could aquire it. The idea was to tap into the Cotton Belt's Gulf Coast chemical traffic to the Northeast. However, the STB didn't go along with the idea and the SSW became part of UP.

Such a move would have changed a lot of things...Blue engines in Houston. And I doubt that Conrail would have been bought by NS and CSX.

While I have no way of knowing, I wonder if UP thought Conrail might have been eyeing all of SP?

It is to bad that SP-SSW didn't buy Conrail or vise versa. A one railroad trascon route. I was not a big Conrail fan (sure wish I would have had Conrail stock the first day of issue) but I sure hated to see it go, and especially being split between two other railroads. And while we are dreaming let's add a special passenger train from New York to LA, sounds good doesn't it? I much rather would have seen a Sp/SSW/Conrail merger than what has happened. If that would have happened Sp/Conrail could have still been around. And that's a better deal. [:p]

[kenneo]

The line East from New Orleans was originally L and N.

As for mergers, the SSW was partly owned by a religious order and the articles of incorporation required their consent to anything to do with a consolidation. The UP was finaly able to by out the order. As to why the SSW never expanded, the charter was one limiting factor, and the other was bankruptcy. The SP took it out of bankruptcy and would have folded it into the TNO right then but for the aforementioned religious order. Some years ago, TRAINS had an article on SSW history, and you'll find a lot of your questions answered there.

Also, shortly after the PC/Con Rail mess and the BN merger (CBQ/NP/GN/SPS/OT/PaC/CS/FWD) the SP and the Seaboard Coast Line started merger proceedings. This was the LN/ACL/SCL/RFP (and I think. WM and Clinchfield). Single line from Portland, OR, via Sacramento to Ogden; via Los Angeles, Houston, New Orleans, to Florida and Washington, DC., and via Houston and Memphis into Tennessee and via Houston via Little Rock to St. Louis. Neither management team could get along, so it died.

As part of this merger there was also talk of them trying to pry the DLW and ERIE (EL) out of ConRail. The ERIE-Lacawana would have been managed by the SSW. Bloody-nosed Tunnel Motors in Hoboken! How they were going to make the connection, I don't know. Never heard.

Another merger possibility that was thrown about was when the MILW folded and they were going to abandon their Western Extension. The proposal was for SP to take over MILW. That would have provided the necessary connection to the EL.

How serious the EL and MILW proposals were, I don't know, but I am sure that the bean counter had a massive "big one" over it. Since no formal proposals ever came to fruit, I believe that the bean-counters nailed the coffins shut with lots of very large nails. Can you believe 3 such financially weak roads being permitted to merge? My response is, "Not in this life-time."

[kenneo]

The line East from New Orleans was originally L and N.

As for mergers, the SSW was partly owned by a religious order and the articles of incorporation required their consent to anything to do with a consolidation. The UP was finaly able to by out the order. As to why the SSW never expanded, the charter was one limiting factor, and the other was bankruptcy. The SP took it out of bankruptcy and would have folded it into the TNO right then but for the aforementioned religious order. Some years ago, TRAINS had an article on SSW history, and you'll find a lot of your questions answered there.

Also, shortly after the PC/Con Rail mess and the BN merger (CBQ/NP/GN/SPS/OT/PaC/CS/FWD) the SP and the Seaboard Coast Line started merger proceedings. This was the LN/ACL/SCL/RFP (and I think. WM and Clinchfield). Single line from Portland, OR, via Sacramento to Ogden; via Los Angeles, Houston, New Orleans, to Florida and Washington, DC., and via Houston and Memphis into Tennessee and via Houston via Little Rock to St. Louis. Neither management team could get along, so it died.

As part of this merger there was also talk of them trying to pry the DLW and ERIE (EL) out of ConRail. The ERIE-Lacawana would have been managed by the SSW. Bloody-nosed Tunnel Motors in Hoboken! How they were going to make the connection, I don't know. Never heard.

Another merger possibility that was thrown about was when the MILW folded and they were going to abandon their Western Extension. The proposal was for SP to take over MILW. That would have provided the necessary connection to the EL.

How serious the EL and MILW proposals were, I don't know, but I am sure that the bean counter had a massive "big one" over it. Since no formal proposals ever came to fruit, I believe that the bean-counters nailed the coffins shut with lots of very large nails. Can you believe 3 such financially weak roads being permitted to merge? My response is, "Not in this life-time."

[cabforward]

passenger trains: search for: american orient express

american orient express operates many trains in u.s. and can.. n.y.-chi., chi.-la., n.o.-wash..

the trains have many levels of pass. accommodations (basic, luxury, presidential).. all fares provide 'sleeper' service, there is no 'daycoach' class.. a n.y.-l.a. run is 11 days.. riders de-train at many stops and tour local sights as they remain overnight on the train and depart the next day..

fares run from approx. $2500-$5,000, dep. on length of trip and service desired.. fare includes everything except travel to/from departure/destination points.. one train connects montreal with several cities in the northeast..

if you've been looking for a terrific train ride as it was in the 40s and 50s, this is it..

cars are painted blue/cream and labeled 'american orient express'.. locos could be any class 1 system: amtrak, csx, etc.

all trains run for specific months of the year: may-sept., feb. jun, etc.
none provide year-round service..

[cabforward]

passenger trains: search for: american orient express

american orient express operates many trains in u.s. and can.. n.y.-chi., chi.-la., n.o.-wash..

the trains have many levels of pass. accommodations (basic, luxury, presidential).. all fares provide 'sleeper' service, there is no 'daycoach' class.. a n.y.-l.a. run is 11 days.. riders de-train at many stops and tour local sights as they remain overnight on the train and depart the next day..

fares run from approx. $2500-$5,000, dep. on length of trip and service desired.. fare includes everything except travel to/from departure/destination points.. one train connects montreal with several cities in the northeast..

if you've been looking for a terrific train ride as it was in the 40s and 50s, this is it..

cars are painted blue/cream and labeled 'american orient express'.. locos could be any class 1 system: amtrak, csx, etc.

all trains run for specific months of the year: may-sept., feb. jun, etc.
none provide year-round service..

[Anonymous]

cabforward hope this helps [;)]

http://www.americanorientexpress.info/

[Anonymous]

cabforward hope this helps [;)]

http://www.americanorientexpress.info/

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

One of the reasons that the Golden State Route was turned over to SSW was for legal reasons. SP proper was obligated to route certain transcontinental traffic to UP at Ogden and assigning the Golden State Route to SSW was a way around this restriction.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

One of the reasons that the Golden State Route was turned over to SSW was for legal reasons. SP proper was obligated to route certain transcontinental traffic to UP at Ogden and assigning the Golden State Route to SSW was a way around this restriction.