CNW route to the Pacific

[miniwyo]

I think that the route that would have been used is South along what is now Hwy US 287 to nearly to Sweetwater Crossing and then back up the River to South Pass.  Following the highway out of Lander straight to the Pass along Hwy 28 would have imposed a crossing of the Wind River Mountains about 2,000 feet higher than South Pass near the iron Mine, and then back up over South Pass. 

There is a route from the Cowboy via Sand Springs, passing a bit northeast of Sweetwater Crossing, up the river to South Pass, across the pass and then following the ridgeline northwest past Buckskin Crossing, Big Sandy, Boulder, Pinedale, Bondurant, Hoback Jct, down the Snake to Swan Valley, Lorenzo, up the hill to the Lemhi Valley via Leadore to Salmon, or at Swan Valley, turn southeast to Idaho Falls and follow to Snake around through southern Idaho instead of cutting across the state via the Lemhi/Salmon alignment back to the Snake.  Either way would be doable at 1%.  You can get a grade that is operable out of Lander over the Wind River Mountains, but as D R Busse said, it would have been spectacular and totally avoidable.

That is exactly right, But i still think that the grade on the west side of the mountians would have been the steeper grade, and it is also the more beautiful side if you ask me. Although seeing a train going up the grade by Red Canyon would be AWESOME!! Its funny actually, About 20 miles south of Pinedale, there is a little industrial park that has popped out of nowhere, and they have 10-15 covered hoppers sitting there. they have no trucks and they are sitting in timbers as storage for frac sand for the booming Jonah Field. kinda odd seeing them there and knowing there is not a rail for at least 100 miles in every direction.

[kenneo]

I think that the route that would have been used is South along what is now Hwy US 287 to nearly to Sweetwater Crossing and then back up the River to South Pass.  Following the highway out of Lander straight to the Pass along Hwy 28 would have imposed a crossing of the Wind River Mountains about 2,000 feet higher than South Pass near the iron Mine, and then back up over South Pass. 

There is a route from the Cowboy via Sand Springs, passing a bit northeast of Sweetwater Crossing, up the river to South Pass, across the pass and then following the ridgeline northwest past Buckskin Crossing, Big Sandy, Boulder, Pinedale, Bondurant, Hoback Jct, down the Snake to Swan Valley, Lorenzo, up the hill to the Lemhi Valley via Leadore to Salmon, or at Swan Valley, turn southeast to Idaho Falls and follow to Snake around through southern Idaho instead of cutting across the state via the Lemhi/Salmon alignment back to the Snake.  Either way would be doable at 1%.  You can get a grade that is operable out of Lander over the Wind River Mountains, but as D R Busse said, it would have been spectacular and totally avoidable.

[DRBusse]

I spent a glorious week in 1983 shooting the USS Atlantic City "F" units and the C&NW operation to Riverton (C&NW abandoned Lander-Riverton in the 1970s).

Say what you want about the C&NW's proposed route to the west coast, but standing in Lander (and driving back and forth to the Atlantic City mine), it was clear that the C&NW survey engineers faced a huge obstacle just getting west out of Lander. Had they built over South Pass, the east side of mountain would have been a spectacular mountain grade rivaling Tehachapi, Cajon, Mullan or Bozeman (four that come to mind with similar topography).

[erikem]

Interesting, I didn't know the EP&SW was afiliated with the Rock. The only problem with hooking up wth the SD&A was it was financed by the SP when Spreckles got in over his head. At first the financeing was secret. If I recall it wasn't till Spreckles died that that info became public.

"Affiliated" may not be the right word - think cooperating may be a better term. EP&SW was Phelps Dodge's attempt at getting out from underneath SP's thumb - EP&SW bought El Paso and Northeastern in1905 to reach some coal fields in NM and also to connect with the CRIP. This was about the same time that Spreckels was starting to get the ball rolling with the SD&A - so naturally the thought was forming another transcon. The EP&SW was sold to the SP in 1924.

The SD&A might have been a bit more practical if the US Mexico border was a few miles further south - this allowing an all US route (though the San Diego Cuyamaca & Eastern would have been a spectacular ride).

[kenneo]

. WARNING! Speculation alert! See below: The biggest applecart upsetting that a completed Oregon Pacific to Ontario might have accomplished is that the UP might have chosen to become involved with it, rather than with the OR&N, which would have likley left the OR&N in NP hands, and possibly prevented the construction of NP on Stampede Pass, and might have resulted in the north bank being occuppoed by either Milwaukee, or by the GN on it's own, rather than the jointly owned (with NP) SP&S.

The sole reason that the NP built North from Pasco and over Stampede pass was precisely that the UP had taken over control of the ORN and was depriving the NP of its friendly connection.  The "original" NP line from Pasco to Seattle was a bridge arrangement between Pasco and Portland over the ORN (ORN did the work with ORN engines and crews) and then NP on down the Columbia to Goble where there was a ferry across the river to Kalama, and then on to Longview and North.  The ferry remained until 1906 when the SPS opened their Willammette and Columbia Draw Spans and both the NP and the UP gained trackage rights through Vancouver.  The GN also started running into Portland about then as well.  The UP owned a large part of the ROW between Vancouver Jct and Kalama and the NP needed it so that is how the UP got its rights over the bridge.

The line that eventually became the UP's Burns Branch, started out life as a State of Oregon MANDATED line that was to go from Ontario, via Bend and LaPine to Eugene.  It was the CNW survey that got that little charade started.  The UP was building South into Bend up the Deschetes River and didn't want two lines into Bend.  The Oregon Eastern (Burns Branch) got as far as Burns. 

The UP dug its heals in all the way with that line and shed it as quickly as they could.  From LaPine, it had a choice of routes (Crane Prarie and the North Fork of the Willammette or to Chemult and the Natron Cutoff) that joined at West Fir.  The OP route via Hogg Pass was fine until you got to Idanha and from there to Black Butte (the Oregon Black Butte near Sisters) it would have been a railroad worthy of Donner with two summits (Hogg (now known as North Santiam Oregon 22) and Santiam (now known as South Santiam US 20). 

Coos Bay is the better port than Newport.  Much better harbor and bar crossing and there is sufficient waterfront to have become as big as Seattle, San Francisco/Oakland or Los Angeles/Long Beach.  Had Coos Bay got its railroad sooner and been properly promoted, "it could have been a contender".  Even without promotion, Coos Bay handles ocean-going ships destined to the Far East.  In the late 1960's and early 1970's, I was the drawbridge tender at North Bend (Coos Bay Bridge) and it was normal to have 3 to 5 ships per shift transit the draw.  We had six trains a day (3 each way).  Not that way now!

[mudchicken]

You forget that prior to WW I, CRIP was headed west on another route. Liberal to Hugoton, KS to Ramsey/Castaneda,OK to Trinidad, CO, up the Purgatoire River Valley to points west. It was still on the books as late as 1926. They had a contract signed with ATSF(DC&CV) to cross on the south side of Hugoton, KS and a letter of agreement about crossing the unbuilt (until 1935) ATSF Boise City to Springfield line.....

[chad thomas]

Reminds me that another Granger was trying to get a Pacific coast line - the Rock Island via the El Paso and Southwestern. At one time there was discussion in hooking up the San Diego and Arizona with the EP&SW, which hooked up with the RI in Tucumcari.

Interesting, I didn't know the EP&SW was afiliated with the Rock. The only problem with hooking up wth the SD&A was it was financed by the SP when Spreckles got in over his head. At first the financeing was secret. If I recall it wasn't till Spreckles died that that info became public.

[erikem]

The proposed route would have split off the original Milw main line at Bonner Junction, followed the Blackfoot river to Cadotte Pass, then northeast to Great Falls, then on to Lewistown(preferrably the GN alignment between Great Falls and Lewiston), then to Winnett, build a line to connect Winnett with the main line close to Melstone. Cadotte Pass is 2 miles NW of where highway 200 crosses the Divide.

Micheal Sol says the engineers report would have had a maximum grade of 1%, sharpest curve would have been 8 degrees, required an 8,000' tunnel under the pass and maximum elevation would have been 5,300' (a nice piece of work). AFAIK, this doesn't include the upgraded line from Great Falls to Melstone - using the existing line of Melstone to Harlowton, Harlow to Lewistown, and (yuck) Lewistown to Great Falls would have defeated the purpose of the new line through Cadotte.

The reason for the original alignment of the Milw was to capture the business at Butte & Anaconda - several of the Milw directors were also directors of the Anaconda Copper Company. The big drawback was dealing with Pipestone Pass - 2% grades and lots of 10 degree curves.

Had C&NW joined the Milw in constructing the Pacific Coast Extension, theymight have had enough funds to build the Cadotte line - and joined by following the 'Q' to Billings and then the Big G to Great Falls. One other option for the C&NW would have been to strike SW from their Wyoming line to hook up with the WP in Salt Lake City.

Would be fun to see an article...

Reminds me that another Granger was trying to get a Pacific coast line - the Rock Island via the El Paso and Southwestern. At one time there was discussion in hooking up the San Diego and Arizona with the EP&SW, which hooked up with the RI in Tucumcari.

[Kevin C. Smith]

I didn't really mean any one in particular-I think more than one was being discussed. Though, since I'm not that familiar with the area, I'd have to dig out a bunch of topo maps and trace things out. Even then, I really don't know that part of the country that much to be able to see the +/-'s of the proposed routes (grades, potential traffic, etc.). Hmmm-maybe an article instead of just a map? Maybe a collector's edition? Maybe I better calm down?

[erikem]

Kevin Smith wrote: >Add the discussion on the recent MILW thread about a possible alternate crossing of the Divide

Assume youa referring to Lolo Pass over the Bitterroots, to Lewiston ID and the Snake River drainage?

I think he's referring to the Cadotte's Pass route which would have likely been routed through Lewistown MT. The line would have gone up the Blackfoot river almost due east of Missoula, then headed up to Great Falls, then down to Lewistwon. I've looked at topos covering the route and it looks like it would have been a nice line - suspect the fracas going on in Europe made financing construction tough (it was easier to get financing from GE for the electrification).

[Anonymous]

Kevin Smith wrote:

>Add the discussion on the recent MILW thread about a possible
> alternate crossing of the Divide

Assume youa referring to Lolo Pass over the Bitterroots, to Lewiston ID and the Snake River drainage?

[miniwyo]

Well, I have returned, Was too busy over the weekend to get out to the canyon though.  Sorry guys. :P

[nanaimo73]

CB&Q reached the C&S at Wendover (or Orin) from Billings (Fromberg, MT) in 1914, according to the Historical Guide to North American Railroads. 

[miniwyo]

THIS JUST IN!!!! I get to head up to Riverton and see som BNSF action on the area starting tonight. This gets me thinking, When did The BNSF or it Predecessors get the Windriver Canyon route?

[Kevin C. Smith]

Hm. Alternate GN & MILW routes across the Cascades? A roughly surveyed C&NW route to tidewater? Add the discussion on the recent MILW thread about a possible alternate crossing of the Divide, an old UP thread I poked around discussing a relocated mainline north of Cheyenne/Laramie and a rough idea the Rock Island had for finally living up to it's "and Pacific" moniker...and maybe we have an idea for a future "Map of the Month"? The transcons that might have been? Anyone know of any others that went at least a little beyond the idea stage?

[Anonymous]

A few real-world comments, assuming that C&NW had built the Oregon Pacific route.

The route would have accessed a previous Harriman monopoly in Southern Idaho. Potentially this would give C&NW some significant competitive traffic, though being mostly marginal ag, it would probably not have paid off until the post-war era when agriculture and irrigation had advanced somewhat.

The route accross the Oregon desert would have been long and bleak and with little on-line traffic. Burns was a center for logging for a while, as well as for ranching, but the remainder of the area is either canyon scablands or vast emptiness good for little but grazing.

There is a possibility that this leg could serve as a launching point for a Northern California extension, much as GN would later attempt, but if actual builders in this area are any indication, this would likely have to wait until after the main extension was completed.

The crossing of the Cascades via Hogg/Santiam Pass would have been the lowest, best route over the Cascades other than the routes at water level in the Gorge. The Eastern approach would have been fairly easy, the Western approach less so but by no means nasty. By any stretch, this would have been a major asset to this route.

The line in the Willamette Valley would have primarily been a non-starter. Yaquina City was a watering hole with some peirs in the 1880 & 90s, by contrast Portland was already the most important U.S. city on the west coast after San Francisco. C&NW and/or OP would have been forced to build a "branch" northwards to reach Portland in short order. This would have been viciously opposed by SP, which then held a virtual monopoly in the region, but there's nothing to say they could have put a full stop to it; twenty years later the Oregon Electric invaded SP territory and planted a foothold deep for Hill.

At the time Hogg started the OP adventure, the O&C -- future SP -- was not completed to California, and the NP was not yet open all the way to the coast. The OP could easily have become a new Central Pacific, combined with a suitable midwestern partner. Also, the OR&N across the Blues was not yet complete or established.

Interesting trivia: in the pre WWI era, when Hill had finished the Oregon Trunk to Bend, he had two plans for the OT. One was to launch an extension south to Klamath Falls, and then over the Cascades to the Rogue River valley, tapping vast forest land and agriculture, as well as getting one step closer to California. The other and more interesting one was to build the Boise & Western, yet another SP&S managed subsidiary that would build via Burns and the Malhuer Canyon to reach Boise and Pocatello. The goal? First, to invade a Harriman stronghold, and second, to make a transcon out of a granger, in this case, the Burlington. The Q was the real moneymaker, and both SP&S and Q were 50/50 properties; it's likely that if the extension had happened, the SP&S would have become a Q managed corporation, much like C&S or FW&D.

WARNING! Speculation alert! See below:

The biggest applecart upsetting that a completed Oregon Pacific to Ontario might have accomplished is that the UP might have chosen to become involved with it, rather than with the OR&N, which would have likley left the OR&N in NP hands, and possibly prevented the construction of NP on Stampede Pass, and might have resulted in the north bank being occuppoed by either Milwaukee, or by the GN on it's own, rather than the jointly owned (with NP) SP&S.

[james saunders]

This is a very interesting thread, i'm learning alot

keep it up guys

[Anonymous]

Or to put it another way.........

How about a poker metaphor? 

The retrenchment of the Milwaukee from a finely engineered transcon back into a regional granger is akin to a poker player having 4 aces but trading them in for a pair of dueces.

Of course, CNW never even anted up for transcon poker!

[MichaelSol]

  <>
However, as the saying goes "he who hesitates is lost".  All the railroads that chose to remain (or revert, in the case of the Milwaukee) as granger lines are no longer with us, while all the transcons but the Milwaukee are still around today.  The SP transcon is still here, the SF transcon is still here, the WP/D&RGW transcon is still here, the UP transcon is still here, the NP transcon is still here, the GN transcon is still here, the CP transcon is still here, the CN transcon is still here.  Only the grangers are gone.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that they only railroads still with us are the western transcons? While there are no longer any of the midwest railroads around in unmerged form, neither are 5 of the 8 you listed above.  The majority of the MAIN lines in granger country are still with us today too, so what is your point? 

The railroad corporations with the transcons are the ones that took over the grangers.  There was never a case of a predominately granger railroad taking over a transcon.

Again what is your point?  Are you saying the bigger fish swallows the little fish(with the exception of the Rio Grande/SP)?  No kidding!!  To say that the CNW would have been better off as a transcon because the bigger fish takes over the little fish is nuts.  As has been pointed out elsewhere the last two transcons built, the MILW and WP where on shakey ground most of their lives.  To say the CNW would have been any differnet, is wishful thinking..

The obvious contention is that transcontinental railroads were more profitable than the Granger roads, nothwithstanding the fact that Grangers were, in many cases, larger roads in revenues, carloads and mileage. The reason is that railroads with longer hauls tended to be more profitable than railroads with shorter hauls. A railroad that reached out for longer hauls had much better prospects of surviving than railroads that did not. To say that CNW would have not been any different of a railroad as a transcontinental rather than as a Granger is, I think, nuts, since that ignores the fundamental differences between a transcon, just about any transcon, and a Granger.

[n012944]

 

However, as the saying goes "he who hesitates is lost".  All the railroads that chose to remain (or revert, in the case of the Milwaukee) as granger lines are no longer with us, while all the transcons but the Milwaukee are still around today.  The SP transcon is still here, the SF transcon is still here, the WP/D&RGW transcon is still here, the UP transcon is still here, the NP transcon is still here, the GN transcon is still here, the CP transcon is still here, the CN transcon is still here.  Only the grangers are gone.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that they only railroads still with us are the western transcons? While there are no longer any of the midwest railroads around in unmerged form, neither are 5 of the 8 you listed above.  The majority of the MAIN lines in granger country are still with us today too, so what is your point? 

The railroad corporations with the transcons are the ones that took over the grangers.  There was never a case of a predominately granger railroad taking over a transcon.

Again what is your point?  Are you saying the bigger fish swallows the little fish(with the exception of the Rio Grande/SP)?  No kidding!!  To say that the CNW would have been better off as a transcon because the bigger fish takes over the little fish is nuts.  As has been pointed out elsewhere the last two transcons built, the MILW and WP where on shakey ground most of their lives.  To say the CNW would have been any differnet than those two, in my opinion is wishful thinking.

 

 

Bert

[Anonymous]

 

However, as the saying goes "he who hesitates is lost".  All the railroads that chose to remain (or revert, in the case of the Milwaukee) as granger lines are no longer with us, while all the transcons but the Milwaukee are still around today.  The SP transcon is still here, the SF transcon is still here, the WP/D&RGW transcon is still here, the UP transcon is still here, the NP transcon is still here, the GN transcon is still here, the CP transcon is still here, the CN transcon is still here.  Only the grangers are gone.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that they only railroads still with us are the western transcons? While there are no longer any of the midwest railroads around in unmerged form, neither are 5 of the 8 you listed above.  The majority of the MAIN lines in granger country are still with us today too, so what is your point? 

The railroad corporations with the transcons are the ones that took over the grangers.  There was never a case of a predominately granger railroad taking over a transcon.

[Anonymous]

Typical Hillisms. A rail baron that thought a century into the future, instead of just decades like most of his contemporaries.

One sometimes wonders what he'd be doing if he were alive today.

[MichaelSol]

Generally, transcontinentals developed the traffic. It's not like there was an existing traffic base just waiting for a railroad to come along. This was a development era for the West. Each transcontinental railroad developed new traffic from scratch, and new traffic was synergistic; it in turn developed more traffic which benefitted everyone, even competitors.

Hill saw it that way. "If I were the Northwestern or the St. Paul, I would never be satisfied with a connection over some other line that was a natural competitor from the common point eastward.  The Northwestern and the St. Paul ... would, if they built to the (Puget) Sound, be a great acquisition to the business of the Sound and would go far toward putting it on a foundation viewed from the commerce of the world ahead of San Francisco. This would help our lines more than any possible injury it could do." United States Government Interstate Commerce Commission, Investigation of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway Company (Washington D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1928) 131 ICC 617.

Albert Earling and William Rockefeller agreed. There was no point in building a transcontinental rail line just to plunder someone else's traffic. The West was developing. Some saw that the future of railroading meant investing in the future. Hill, Rockefeller and Earling were of that vision. North Western and Rock Island were not. Burlington finessed it with a traffic agreement with the NP which, in essence, made the Burlington the transcontinental line ... the longer hauls.
   

[n012944]

 

However, as the saying goes "he who hesitates is lost".  All the railroads that chose to remain (or revert, in the case of the Milwaukee) as granger lines are no longer with us, while all the transcons but the Milwaukee are still around today.  The SP transcon is still here, the SF transcon is still here, the WP/D&RGW transcon is still here, the UP transcon is still here, the NP transcon is still here, the GN transcon is still here, the CP transcon is still here, the CN transcon is still here.  Only the grangers are gone.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that they only railroads still with us are the western transcons? While there are no longer any of the midwest railroads around in unmerged form, neither are 5 of the 8 you listed above.  The majority of the MAIN lines in granger country are still with us today too, so what is your point? 

 

Bert

[Kevin C. Smith]

I seem to remember in the Milwaukee thread (I think-please don't make me wade through it all again!!) a mention that the stop put to the Northern Securities merger of the GN, NP and CB&Q led to some speculation that the NP would be spun off-and that the MILW looked at the possibility of acquiring it for their PCE. Anyone know if the C&NW had similar ideas?

[Chris30]

Cast of characters from 1906:

Marvin Hughitt - President of the Northwestern  who seemed to be riding the fence more that me in regards to PCE.

E.H. Harriman - President of the Union Pacific who encouraged the Northwestern to remain a grainger because he feared even a joint arrangement with the Northwestern would lead to more conflicts with...

James J. Hill - President of the Hill Lines

William K. Vanderbilt Northwestern Executive Committee / William Rockefeller Standard Oil Co (Milwaukee Road Exceutive Committee) - Had several conversations regarding a joint Northwestern / Milwaukee Rd PCE in 1906. Construction would extend from S Dakota (Rapid City) through Montana and Idaho to Tacoma/Seattle. The Northwestern backed off because "various forces undermined a joint agreement". Also, the estimated cost of "between $50 and $75 million" forced the Northwestern to back off.

"Stick to our knitting, develop this railroad in its present territory and let the Milwaukee build to the coast if it wants to"; Marving Hughitt. In a published report Hughitt wrote that his company would "remain the great local line which it is now."

Panic of 1907 - forced any further thoughts of a PCE to the back burner as railroads fell on hard times.

The Milwaukee Road finished their PCE at Garrison, Montana on May 14, 1909. From a book named the Milwaukee Road by Derleth (only name given), the Milwaukee "experienced immediate and long-term economic problems".

Information and quotes for this post were pulled from The Northwestern by Roger Grant.

CC

[Anonymous]

   You cannot judge what a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's analysis of the Milwaukee PCE retrenchment. .

     (Shrugs)  Not any more than you can judge what  a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's dream of "If they had built it, they would have come". The fact that they explored the idea, but didn't act, might be an indication that at least some thought it wasn't viable?

No one, not even the forum simpletons, has said "If they had built it, they would have come" (a sentence which doesn't even make a parse's worth of sense - if they had built it, they'd already be there!).  The fact that CNW never built a transcon doesn't mean it wasn't "viable", it just means they didn't have the kahunas to try. 

However, as the saying goes "he who hesitates is lost".  All the railroads that chose to remain (or revert, in the case of the Milwaukee) as granger lines are no longer with us, while all the transcons but the Milwaukee are still around today.  The SP transcon is still here, the SF transcon is still here, the WP/D&RGW transcon is still here, the UP transcon is still here, the NP transcon is still here, the GN transcon is still here, the CP transcon is still here, the CN transcon is still here.  Only the grangers are gone.

With 7 (count them, 7!) transcon routes still alive and kicking today, why would one assume the lesser likelyhood and claim that another transcon would have ended up like the one (1) and only case as presented by the Milwaukee's transcon?

CNW minimized itself as a granger line and a bridge line for UP.  One reason they needed UP to finance the PRB expansion was that they didn't have a transcon to bring in the necessary revenues to finance a PRB expansion themselves.  Their die was cast when they chose not to go coastal.

[Murphy Siding]

   You cannot judge what a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's analysis of the Milwaukee PCE retrenchment. .

     (Shrugs)  Not any more than you can judge what  a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's dream of "If they had built it, they would have come". The fact that they explored the idea, but didn't act, might be an indication that at least some thought it wasn't viable?

[Anonymous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><table class="quoteOuterTable"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/trccs/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>corwinda wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">I wonder what the western Oregon rail map would look like now if the Hogg Pass segment had been completed, whether or not the portions farther east were completed. Particularly; might SP have acquired and used it in place of the Willamette pass segment of the Natron cutoff?<br></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the Hogg Pass route had been built, it would probably have been to a connection with another carrier in Idaho, e.g. C&NW. In that case it's strongly likely that carrier would end up in control. I'm sure it wouldn't have staid independent -- no other regional sized railroad in the NW that built itself for bridge traffic stayed independent. But your specualtion about SP is very apt -- the route would definitely have been a plumb prize to the Harriman forces. It would no doubt have soon sprouted or intergrated with a northbound line near Albany to reach Portland.

Interestingly, the Natron line over Pengra Pass that SP built was original bound for Idaho, not California.