CNW never made it to the Pacific, they stalled out in Wyoming (Coloney I think). But somewhere a long time ago I read that they surveyed a route that went to Lakeview,Or. Then turned southwest and followed the Pit river & Sacramento river to Redding then down the west valley. Does anyone know the route they planned? Or where I could view the planned route online?
Hey Chad.
Colony was on a northern line to the Bentonite. The route west got to Lander, Wyoming, heading for South Pass, where the USS Atlantic City line crossed the divide. Miniwyo Country.
futuremodal wrote:I had not heard about the Lakeview to Redding route for CNW. My understanding was that after crossing South Pass, CNW would head due west through Southern Idaho to Ontario OR, then continuing due west to Burns OR, and generally following the current alignment of US Highway 20 through Bend, over Santiam Pass to Corvallis, finally terminating at Newport OR. There is (was?) a UP branch from Ontario to Burns that followed the original surveys.
I found a map a while back that I can't find online anymore (I'll see if I can post it...if I can find the disk) from a while back (~1930?) advertising that route and the planned ventures along its way.
Dan
nanaimo73 wrote:Hey Chad. Colony was on a northern line to the Bentonite. The route west got to Lander, Wyoming, heading for South Pass, where the USS Atlantic City line crossed the divide. Miniwyo Country.
RJ
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In 1906 the end of the line was Lander, WY. Roger Grants book The Northwestern shows a map with two proposed pacific extensions from Lander.
The first proposed route went westward from Lander along the Idaho, Utah and Nevada state lines into northern California. Eureka, CA was the prosposed destination. The second proposed route would extend northward from Shoshoni, WY and thne bend to the west from the southern boundary of Yellowstone National Park through central Idaho and Oregon to Coos Bay. The intent was that Coos Bay would rival San Francisco or Portland as a mjor west coast port.
The Northwestern also considered several partnerships with other railroads including the UP and the Milwaukee Road to reach the west coast. Ultimately, the price tag to expand to the left coast forced the Northwestern to rethink its plans. By 1907 the Northwestern decided to stick with being a granger and it appears that no public comments regarding westward extension were made after 1910.
The Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle. How would the Northwestern have fared going to Eureka or Coos Bay?? I'm going to have to say probably not very good. I will try to find the map that I'm looking at online somewhere.
CC
Chris30 wrote: The Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle. How would the Northwestern have fared going to Eureka or Coos Bay?? I'm going to have to say probably not very good.
The Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle. How would the Northwestern have fared going to Eureka or Coos Bay?? I'm going to have to say probably not very good.
Not to be too fussy, but the PCE didn't "suffer" as is the common misconception, it was the corporate Milwaukee road entity that suffered and ultimately withdrew from the PNW. The PCE made money for the Milwaukee, while the granger lines lost money for Milwaukee. Remember the railroad rule of thumb, profit potential is greater the longer the haul. In terms of profile the Milwaukee PCE was at least the second best of the four Northwest transcons (GN, Milwaukee, UP, NP).
The same analysis as to whether a CNW west coast line would have been successful or not would need the same corporate overview. If CNW clung to their granger lines the way Milwaukee clung to it's grangers, then yes you might make the same assumption that the CNW ultimately would have met the same corporate fate as Milwaukee. If CNW had been wise enough to jettison the grangers and just kept a prospective transcon and a Midwest north south spine, then it is likely that a CNW transcon would still be around today, albeit a merged one. One thing is certain, CNW would have been better off with a transcon than without. Of course, CNW had the UP bridge traffic, but that's not the same as having control over your own transcon.
futuremodal wrote: Chris30 wrote: The Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle. How would the Northwestern have fared going to Eureka or Coos Bay?? I'm going to have to say probably not very good. Not to be too fussy, but the PCE didn't "suffer" as is the common misconception, it was the corporate Milwaukee road entity that suffered and ultimately withdrew from the PNW. The PCE made money for the Milwaukee, while the granger lines lost money for Milwaukee. Remember the railroad rule of thumb, profit potential is greater the longer the haul. In terms of profile the Milwaukee PCE was at least the second best of the four Northwest transcons (GN, Milwaukee, UP, NP). The same analysis as to whether a CNW west coast line would have been successful or not would need the same corporate overview. If CNW clung to their granger lines the way Milwaukee clung to it's grangers, then yes you might make the same assumption that the CNW ultimately would have met the same corporate fate as Milwaukee. If CNW had been wise enough to jettison the grangers and just kept a prospective transcon and a Midwest north south spine, then it is likely that a CNW transcon would still be around today, albeit a merged one. One thing is certain, CNW would have been better off with a transcon than without. Of course, CNW had the UP bridge traffic, but that's not the same as having control over your own transcon.
Due to ICC controls at the time, I don't believe CNW, or any other grainger could get rid of the unprofitable lines, even if they wanted to.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
chad thomas wrote:Dale, Do you know anything about the route they planned to take beyond that?
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My meaining of "[t]he Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle" was just another way of saying that it's not there anymore. I was trying to make the point that if one midwest grainger couldn't keep a pacific extension going to Seattle (or is it really Tacoma?), a major US city, then what realistic expectations could one have of a Northwestern pacific extension to places such as Eureka or Coos Bay? Would either of those places become a major shipping port if a transcon were built there??
If you want to dream a little and suggest that the Northwestern would have been better with a pacific extension, then without it; I agree. Maybe. I'm not thinking about how successful the Northwestern would have been if they reached the ocean that's called the Pacific as much as I'm thinking about the ocean of coal in Wyoming that now is commonly reffered to as the Powder River Basin. Here's where the guessing game begins... How would the pacific extension have changed the Northwestern financial status? Would the pacific extension still exist or be in good shape into the 1970's when the PRB came into existence? The "Cowboy" line through Nebraska would have been a main line. Could it have been useable for the PRB trains, thus avoiding the UP's assistance? Talk about your history mind-benders!
If the Milwaukee PCE was so succesful, then why didn't any other western railroad assume control when the Milwaukee Road pulled out?
Chris30 wrote: My meaining of "[t]he Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle" was just another way of saying that it's not there anymore. I was trying to make the point that if one midwest grainger couldn't keep a pacific extension going to Seattle (or is it really Tacoma?), a major US city, then what realistic expectations could one have of a Northwestern pacific extension to places such as Eureka or Coos Bay? Would either of those places become a major shipping port if a transcon were built there?? If you want to dream a little and suggest that the Northwestern would have been better with a pacific extension, then without it; I agree. Maybe. I'm not thinking about how successful the Northwestern would have been if they reached the ocean that's called the Pacific as much as I'm thinking about the ocean of coal in Wyoming that now is commonly reffered to as the Powder River Basin. Here's where the guessing game begins... How would the pacific extension have changed the Northwestern financial status? Would the pacific extension still exist or be in good shape into the 1970's when the PRB came into existence? The "Cowboy" line through Nebraska would have been a main line. Could it have been useable for the PRB trains, thus avoiding the UP's assistance? Talk about your history mind-benders! If the Milwaukee PCE was so succesful, then why didn't any other western railroad assume control when the Milwaukee Road pulled out? CC
They tried. The bankruptcy trustee opted for abandonment even in the face of the long haul vs short haul realities, and there were several offers to continue operating the PCE, including a group that eventually created MRL. It is all well explained in the "What happened to the Milwaukee?" thread.
The key to success of course, besides the mental health of the controlling corporation, is the relative quality of the line in terms of profile, operating hassles, and access to revenue markets along the way. Are we talking a lot of long tunnels with stiff ruling grades, a lot of reverse curves, roller coaster alignments, et al, or are we talking about 1% ruling grades, few tunnels, and supurb engineering? I would agree that access the ag markets of Southern Idaho would have been ideal, and a CNW transcon that transversed the PRB would have a lucrative online market ready made. The choice of Coos Bay or Newport OR as the western terminus might have also been an ideal locale, since both are closer to the Pacific Rim markets than Portland, Puget Sound, or Vancouver.
One other minor thing that may have minimized Milwaukee's impact in the PNW was that Milwaukee didn't make it down to Portland until 1970. UP, GN, and NP all had access to both the Puget Sound ports of Tacoma and Seattle, and Portland. Milwaukee only made it down to Longview, a minor port on the Columbia. That's 60 years of only getting maybe 2/3 of the PNW traffic base, and may have contributed to Milwaukee's first few bankruptcies
So, for CNW to have a sustainable PNW transcon, it may very well be that they would have needed more than just a western terminus in Newport or Coos Bay. My thoughts are that building a line north from Corvalis to tap Portland wouldn't have been so difficult, but getting up to the Puget Sound would have been another story. Perhaps this would have been a scenario where CNW and Milwaukee could have teamed up, with Milwaukee getting down to Portland and Coos Bay via CNW's "I-5" tracks, and CNW conversely getting up to Tacoma and Seattle via Milwaukee's "I-5" line. Even so, they probably would have had to build their own bridge across the Columbia, probably between Longview and Rainier OR, since it is unlikely JJ Hill and Eddy Harriman would have allowed CNW/Milwaukee across the SP&S bridge between Portland and Vancouver WA.
So Futuremodal your taking the posistion that Coos Bay / Newport would have become a major shipping terminal?? Even though all of the major west coast ports are in major cities? Of course the argument could be made that changes would have been made to divert to a major city. Coos Bay could have become Portland and Eureka Oakland.
I don't know. I'm stilling riding fence on this issue. I just don't see the Northwestern as a transcon. If this was ever built to wherever on the west coast then my vision is of a struggling transcon that probably would have suffered the same fate as the Milwaukee PCE if it wasn't for the Northwestern's saving grace; the PRB in the mid 1970's. Back to the history mind-benders... Would the Northwestern throw its PCE on the scrap heap west of the PRB and then kick itself for doing so later with the explosion of intermodal imported from the far east? Or, would the Northwestern be forced to keep its PCE because the UP had no other choice but to take over the Rock Island to establish its own west-east transcon. Maybe the Chicago Northwestern & Pacific would still be around today. My vision says that any Northwestern PCE would have been scrapped west of the PRB (or possibly southern Idaho) in the late 1970's with traffic arangements set up with the UP similar to what they were from the late 1970's until the mid 1990's. The UP still would have turned down the Rock becasue of the delays and conditions of the physical property. Bridge traffic on the Northwestern still would have been a better option. The big difference is that the Northwestern would have had control of the PRB my using its own tracks. This is all a big guessing game though as one can only speculate the condition of the "Cowboy" line on struggling PCE. Maybe there really isn't a history mind-bender after all. Maybe the Northwestern ends up at the same spot - broke, needing assistance to get to the PRB and then evetually being taken over by the UP in the mid 1990's.
Chris30 wrote: So Futuremodal your taking the posistion that Coos Bay / Newport would have become a major shipping terminal?? Even though all of the major west coast ports are in major cities? Of course the argument could be made that changes would have been made to divert to a major city. Coos Bay could have become Portland and Eureka Oakland. I don't know. I'm stilling riding fence on this issue. I just don't see the Northwestern as a transcon. If this was ever built to wherever on the west coast then my vision is of a struggling transcon that probably would have suffered the same fate as the Milwaukee PCE if it wasn't for the Northwestern's saving grace; the PRB in the mid 1970's. Back to the history mind-benders... Would the Northwestern throw its PCE on the scrap heap west of the PRB and then kick itself for doing so later with the explosion of intermodal imported from the far east? Or, would the Northwestern be forced to keep its PCE because the UP had no other choice but to take over the Rock Island to establish its own west-east transcon. Maybe the Chicago Northwestern & Pacific would still be around today. My vision says that any Northwestern PCE would have been scrapped west of the PRB (or possibly southern Idaho) in the late 1970's with traffic arangements set up with the UP similar to what they were from the late 1970's until the mid 1990's. The UP still would have turned down the Rock becasue of the delays and conditions of the physical property. Bridge traffic on the Northwestern still would have been a better option. The big difference is that the Northwestern would have had control of the PRB my using its own tracks. This is all a big guessing game though as one can only speculate the condition of the "Cowboy" line on struggling PCE. Maybe there really isn't a history mind-bender after all. Maybe the Northwestern ends up at the same spot - broke, needing assistance to get to the PRB and then evetually being taken over by the UP in the mid 1990's. CC
My feeling is that, if the CNW had successfully made it to the Pacific coast, such would have accelerated the likelyhood of an eventual merger, such as either a CNW-Milwaukee merger, or (more likely) a UP-CNW merger. Remember, the BN lines were duplicative across the Northern Tier, yet most still remain in play today. It is likely a UP-CNW merger would have resulted in UP having a valuable duplicative line into the PNW to supplement it's OSL line.
futuremodal wrote: Chris30 wrote: My meaining of "[t]he Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle" was just another way of saying that it's not there anymore. I was trying to make the point that if one midwest grainger couldn't keep a pacific extension going to Seattle (or is it really Tacoma?), a major US city, then what realistic expectations could one have of a Northwestern pacific extension to places such as Eureka or Coos Bay? Would either of those places become a major shipping port if a transcon were built there?? If you want to dream a little and suggest that the Northwestern would have been better with a pacific extension, then without it; I agree. Maybe. I'm not thinking about how successful the Northwestern would have been if they reached the ocean that's called the Pacific as much as I'm thinking about the ocean of coal in Wyoming that now is commonly reffered to as the Powder River Basin. Here's where the guessing game begins... How would the pacific extension have changed the Northwestern financial status? Would the pacific extension still exist or be in good shape into the 1970's when the PRB came into existence? The "Cowboy" line through Nebraska would have been a main line. Could it have been useable for the PRB trains, thus avoiding the UP's assistance? Talk about your history mind-benders! If the Milwaukee PCE was so succesful, then why didn't any other western railroad assume control when the Milwaukee Road pulled out? CC They tried. The bankruptcy trustee opted for abandonment even in the face of the long haul vs short haul realities, and there were several offers to continue operating the PCE, including a group that eventually created MRL. It is all well explained in the "What happened to the Milwaukee?" thread.
I hate to get back into this, however the offers for the PCE were all ruled by the ICC as being underfunded, in the end no one who could afford the PCE wanted it. The only reason the PCE was built was because when the Hill lines bought the Burlington, the MILW lost a lot of interchange traffic at the Twin Cites. They thought they could get the traffic and haul it back to Chicago themselves. However as time proved 3 railroads where 1 too many, so just think what 4 would have been like. It would have been like Iowa in the 60's/70's, too many railroads competing for too little traffic. If the CNW would have gone all the way to the Pacific coast, it too would have ended up like the MILW. I await the bashing from the PCE lovers.
Bert
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n012944 wrote: futuremodal wrote: Chris30 wrote: My meaining of "[t]he Milwaukee Pacific Extension suffered going to Seattle" was just another way of saying that it's not there anymore. I was trying to make the point that if one midwest grainger couldn't keep a pacific extension going to Seattle (or is it really Tacoma?), a major US city, then what realistic expectations could one have of a Northwestern pacific extension to places such as Eureka or Coos Bay? Would either of those places become a major shipping port if a transcon were built there?? If you want to dream a little and suggest that the Northwestern would have been better with a pacific extension, then without it; I agree. Maybe. I'm not thinking about how successful the Northwestern would have been if they reached the ocean that's called the Pacific as much as I'm thinking about the ocean of coal in Wyoming that now is commonly reffered to as the Powder River Basin. Here's where the guessing game begins... How would the pacific extension have changed the Northwestern financial status? Would the pacific extension still exist or be in good shape into the 1970's when the PRB came into existence? The "Cowboy" line through Nebraska would have been a main line. Could it have been useable for the PRB trains, thus avoiding the UP's assistance? Talk about your history mind-benders! If the Milwaukee PCE was so succesful, then why didn't any other western railroad assume control when the Milwaukee Road pulled out? CC They tried. The bankruptcy trustee opted for abandonment even in the face of the long haul vs short haul realities, and there were several offers to continue operating the PCE, including a group that eventually created MRL. It is all well explained in the "What happened to the Milwaukee?" thread. I hate to get back into this, however the offers for the PCE were all ruled by the ICC as being underfunded, in the end no one who could afford the PCE wanted it. The only reason the PCE was built was because when the Hill lines bought the Burlington, the MILW lost a lot of interchange traffic at the Twin Cites. They thought they could get the traffic and haul it back to Chicago themselves. However as time proved 3 railroads where 1 too many, so just think what 4 would have been like. It would have been like Iowa in the 60's/70's, too many railroads competing for too little traffic. If the CNW would have gone all the way to the Pacific coast, it too would have ended up like the MILW. I await the bashing from the PCE lovers.
Well, this is pretty easy to refute. You are avering, not just speculating, so you must have a crystal ball into a future parallel universe. As stated previously, any success or failure of a CNW transcon would have depended more on both the corporate mentality of CNW's owners and the profile of the alignment. Just being the second or last player into the field does not predicate such to failure.
The original Milwaukee PCE alignment was superior to the original GN alignment, as well as the NP and UP lines. It wasn't until the Cascade Tunnel was built in 1929 that GN's route achieved an improved enough alignment that could challenge the PCE for superiority. Even then, the PCE was still better by consensus that either the NP or UP lines into the PNW, so just having a superior alignment doens't guarantee continuation, and having a deficient alignment doesn't guarantee failure, otherwise the NP and UP lines would have disappeared long ago. Milwaukee's PCE demise was purely managerial shortcomings abetted by political intrusions.
The CNW transcon would have traversed a marketplace that only had one railroad serving it in Southern Idaho, so the addition of a second player would not have diluted the market as you aver. It is likely the CNW line through the midsection of Eastern Oregon would have had a better profile than UP's Blue Mountain crossing, but that advantage would have been lost in the comparative lines to the Willamette Valley, as UP had the water level crossing through the Gorge, while a CNW line would have had some major mountiain grades to deal with. From here, the comparitive Oregon profile comparison looks like a draw.
You cannot judge what a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's analysis of the Milwaukee PCE retrenchment. Yes, it is easier to just assume that the best lines stayed while the worst lines left, but that's obviously not how the real world of railroading works. Success or failure of a railroad alignment has more to do with externalities that are out of context with physical operational characteristics. That seems to be the American way.
futuremodal wrote: You cannot judge what a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's analysis of the Milwaukee PCE retrenchment. .
(Shrugs) Not any more than you can judge what a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's dream of "If they had built it, they would have come". The fact that they explored the idea, but didn't act, might be an indication that at least some thought it wasn't viable?
Murphy Siding wrote: futuremodal wrote: You cannot judge what a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's analysis of the Milwaukee PCE retrenchment. . (Shrugs) Not any more than you can judge what a CNW transcon would have amounted to based on the simpleton's dream of "If they had built it, they would have come". The fact that they explored the idea, but didn't act, might be an indication that at least some thought it wasn't viable?
No one, not even the forum simpletons, has said "If they had built it, they would have come" (a sentence which doesn't even make a parse's worth of sense - if they had built it, they'd already be there!). The fact that CNW never built a transcon doesn't mean it wasn't "viable", it just means they didn't have the kahunas to try.
However, as the saying goes "he who hesitates is lost". All the railroads that chose to remain (or revert, in the case of the Milwaukee) as granger lines are no longer with us, while all the transcons but the Milwaukee are still around today. The SP transcon is still here, the SF transcon is still here, the WP/D&RGW transcon is still here, the UP transcon is still here, the NP transcon is still here, the GN transcon is still here, the CP transcon is still here, the CN transcon is still here. Only the grangers are gone.
With 7 (count them, 7!) transcon routes still alive and kicking today, why would one assume the lesser likelyhood and claim that another transcon would have ended up like the one (1) and only case as presented by the Milwaukee's transcon?
CNW minimized itself as a granger line and a bridge line for UP. One reason they needed UP to finance the PRB expansion was that they didn't have a transcon to bring in the necessary revenues to finance a PRB expansion themselves. Their die was cast when they chose not to go coastal.
Cast of characters from 1906:
Marvin Hughitt - President of the Northwestern who seemed to be riding the fence more that me in regards to PCE.
E.H. Harriman - President of the Union Pacific who encouraged the Northwestern to remain a grainger because he feared even a joint arrangement with the Northwestern would lead to more conflicts with...
James J. Hill - President of the Hill Lines
William K. Vanderbilt Northwestern Executive Committee / William Rockefeller Standard Oil Co (Milwaukee Road Exceutive Committee) - Had several conversations regarding a joint Northwestern / Milwaukee Rd PCE in 1906. Construction would extend from S Dakota (Rapid City) through Montana and Idaho to Tacoma/Seattle. The Northwestern backed off because "various forces undermined a joint agreement". Also, the estimated cost of "between $50 and $75 million" forced the Northwestern to back off.
"Stick to our knitting, develop this railroad in its present territory and let the Milwaukee build to the coast if it wants to"; Marving Hughitt. In a published report Hughitt wrote that his company would "remain the great local line which it is now."
Panic of 1907 - forced any further thoughts of a PCE to the back burner as railroads fell on hard times.
The Milwaukee Road finished their PCE at Garrison, Montana on May 14, 1909. From a book named the Milwaukee Road by Derleth (only name given), the Milwaukee "experienced immediate and long-term economic problems".
Information and quotes for this post were pulled from The Northwestern by Roger Grant.
futuremodal wrote: However, as the saying goes "he who hesitates is lost". All the railroads that chose to remain (or revert, in the case of the Milwaukee) as granger lines are no longer with us, while all the transcons but the Milwaukee are still around today. The SP transcon is still here, the SF transcon is still here, the WP/D&RGW transcon is still here, the UP transcon is still here, the NP transcon is still here, the GN transcon is still here, the CP transcon is still here, the CN transcon is still here. Only the grangers are gone.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that they only railroads still with us are the western transcons? While there are no longer any of the midwest railroads around in unmerged form, neither are 5 of the 8 you listed above. The majority of the MAIN lines in granger country are still with us today too, so what is your point?
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