Railway Security Question (got your ears on Gabe?)

[techguy57]

Because I'm an admitted rail nut and I want to do what I can to give railfans a good name, I recently signed up for BNSF's Citizens for Rail Security program. After receiving my ID card I noticed the following bullet point on a portion of the card

"Do not take photographs of military trains and equipment."

I'm sure this is a Homeland Security issue and I'm willing to write it off as such, but I'm curious as to why? Why is photographing military equipment being moved by train a no-no?

Mike

[blhanel]

Goes with the territory- I work for a Defense Contractor, and even though alot of the equipment produced is unclassified, it's still a no-no to bring a camera to work and take pictures. The military is much more paranoid than Homeland Security.

[techguy57]

Yeah, kinda what I thought. Still I fail to see how photographing equipment being moved by train poses a security risk. Especially like some of the UP trains I've seen moving military equipment at 10mph in Chicago. Those couldn't be much more visible to the general public. Like you said, military paranoia

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by blhanel

Goes with the territory- I work for a Defense Contractor, and even though alot of the equipment produced is unclassified, it's still a no-no to bring a camera to work and take pictures. The military is much more paranoid than Homeland Security.

Photos on private, company property is one thing. There are proprietary issues for most companies, not just military contractors.

If a military movement needs the cloak of security, let them tarp their loads.

I am not aware of any laws prohibiting such photos, If I see it public and i'm on public property, I will take a photograph. As always,common sense should be your guide

However, I would never immediately post on the internet such sightings and give the location or direction of the train as some do.

Ford

[Anonymous]

Delaying the posting of where and when you
saw a military move is good advice.

And there are no laws prohibiting you
from photographing a military movement.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by KCMOWMAN

QUOTE: Originally posted by blhanel

Goes with the territory- I work for a Defense Contractor, and even though alot of the equipment produced is unclassified, it's still a no-no to bring a camera to work and take pictures. The military is much more paranoid than Homeland Security.

Photos on private, company property is one thing. There are proprietary issues for most companies, not just military contractors.

If a military movement needs the cloak of security, let them tarp their loads.

I am not aware of any laws prohibiting such photos, If I see it public and i'm on public property, I will take a photograph. As always,common sense should be your guide

However, I would never immediately post on the internet such sightings and give the location or direction of the train as some do.

Ford

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I am retired from a DOD lab, and we were told at our periodic security briefings photographing any military facility is a no-no; there is a $10,000 fine if convicted. I don't know if that also applies to trains carrying military equipment, but I would not take pictures of any troop trains

[Train Guy 3]

You see U.S. military equipment in action all the time on CNN. What's the big deal about taking a photo of it going down the track in the U.S. If the train runs by my backyard.... I'm going to snap a photo military train or Amtrak.

[amtrakjackson]

I'm with techguy57. If I see an interesting car or load, I'll take a shot of it; military or otherwise....some of these movements go so slow they may as well be a parade, for all to see.

To think I would occasionally take pictures of- and trace with Conrail's and UP's computers- IDOX radioactive moves from Three Mile Island to INEL in Idaho back in the 1980s and no one blinked an eye. No one told me to put my camera down, no monitored phone conversations, no paranoia. To me, it was just another interesting traffic pattern. Granted, probably few fans even cared about the ugly cars at the time- and following traffic flows is an esoteric part of railfanning, but so be it.

[Anonymous]

Apparently your security people never heard
of the first amendment.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

I am retired from a DOD lab, and we were told at our periodic security briefings photographing any military facility is a no-no; there is a $10,000 fine if convicted. I don't know if that also applies to trains carrying military equipment, but I would not take pictures of any troop trains

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

Apparently your security people never heard
of the first amendment.
Dave

It's that sign placed prominently at the gate - if you enter the property, you are consenting to it. Every one I've ever seen includes their right to search you and your vehicle.

While "national security" is a highly questionable (most would say it was no) excuse for hassling railfans who are otherwise legal, it does become a factor on a defense installation.

On the other hand, I've taken dozens of pictures in and around the installation where I work. There are some pretty photogenic spots. I've never had a single problem. If I wanted to get pictures of the military trains we have, I can stand on a public highway, right outside the gate, and get all I want. I just avoid doing so on base.

[DrummingTrainfan]

I remember a couple years ago (I think it was summer of 2001, so pre-9/11) there was a string of DOD cars with tanks PARKED on a siding along the mainline that parallels US hwy 10 from Omaha to North Platte for all to see, photograph, and do damage to (although I don't think anything ever happened to them or it would've been on national news).

I have my doubts that storage idea will ever be used again...

[chad thomas]

Twice in the late 80s & early 90s while railfanning on the Pepper street overpass in West Colton the military police approached me and asked me not to photograph military trains. Both times they showed up about 15-20 minuets before the military trains came in off the Sunset. Of course I complied. Funny thing was both times were at night and I wasn't takeing any pictures anyway, I think my dad was shooting video though.

One happened late at night on a very hot night. The train stopped with the caboose even with but several tracks away from the ice machine. One of the MPs on the caboose was eyeballing the ice machine hard. It was obvious he wanted some ice but wasn't suppose to leave his post. Finaly he decided to go for it. He got a container from inside the caboose and went over and filled it. While he was filling it his train started to move. He had to run and catch it. He almost didn't make it. I bet he would have been in big trouble if he didn't.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

You see U.S. military equipment in action all the time on CNN. What's the big deal about taking a photo of it going down the track in the U.S.

First of all, Let me clarify that I'm not some "rah rah,.. go team!" patiotic nutjob trying to stand up for our military against what you say.


But, I think what you are overlooking is how carefully set up, and screened , those CNN news videos are, before they ever get piped into your living room.

They make dang sure nothing sensitive is on those loops before they ever go public

Which is one reason that israel attacks Palestinian TV stations as though they were military targets, but that is a seperate subject.

A person photographing armored personnel carriers shipped on flats, on the other hand, is totally beyond the military's control, and could just as easily be looking for vulnerabilities...THAT is why they don't want you photo'ing them

Don't worry though,...as with all things, it's only a crime if you get caught.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

Finaly he decided to go for it. He got a container from inside the caboose and went over and filled it. While he was filling it his train started to move. He had to run and catch it. He almost didn't make it. I bet he would have been in big trouble if he didn't.

LOL! that's "desertion"... for a bucket of ice, LMAO!

[techguy57]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68
It's that sign placed prominently at the gate - if you enter the property, you are consenting to it. Every one I've ever seen includes their right to search you and your vehicle.

While "national security" is a highly questionable (most would say it was no) excuse for hassling railfans who are otherwise legal, it does become a factor on a defense installation.

On the other hand, I've taken dozens of pictures in and around the installation where I work. There are some pretty photogenic spots. I've never had a single problem. If I wanted to get pictures of the military trains we have, I can stand on a public highway, right outside the gate, and get all I want. I just avoid doing so on base.

I was thinking the same thing. I do somewhat understand the military not wanting to have them posted immediately, but with cell phones these days can transmit the same info by voice, text or picture so what's to stop it from happening? Like KCMOWMAN posted:

QUOTE: Originally posted by KCMOWMAN
If a military movement needs the cloak of security, let them tarp their loads.

Ironically enough the very next guideline after the one to not take pictures of military trains is to only take photos from public locations. [:)]

Here is the info on the back side of the card:

QUOTE:
Keeping America's rail transportation network safe from crime and terrorist activity is a high-priority for today's railroad industry.
Citizens for Rail Security (CRS) encourages rail fans to report suspicious activities, trespassers or individuals to BNSF's Resource Operations Command Center.

However, when pursuing your hobby, please follow these guidelines:

-Do not trespass on railroad property or rights-of- way. It is illegal and dangerous and will be viewed by law enforcement as a security risk.

-Do not take photographs of military trains and equipment.

-Only take photographs or view trains from public locations.

-When taking photographs from public railroad crossings, stay at least 15 feet away from the nearest rail. This rule applies for staged "photo run- bys" as well.

-Cooperate fully with railroad police or other law enforcement officers when contacted.

-If suspicious activities are noted, report it to railroad or local law enforcement officers. DO NOT TAKE ANY FURTHER ACTION!

Thank you for your interest in BNSF.

[techguy57]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

Finaly he decided to go for it. He got a container from inside the caboose and went over and filled it. While he was filling it his train started to move. He had to run and catch it. He almost didn't make it. I bet he would have been in big trouble if he didn't.

LOL! that's "desertion"... for a bucket of ice, LMAO!

[#ditto]Ditto that![:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates
Don't worry though,...as with all things, it's only a crime if you get caught.

Actually, it's only a crime if there is a law against it.

I know of no such law against photos of military trains.

If there were such a law, it would be plainly stated.

On the BNSF card for example, it's says no photos of military trains, nothing about it's against the law.

Ford

[rrandb]

From WWII "Loose Lips Sink Ships". Last time I checked we still had troops in harms way. Do what you want but they die everyday to help protect your rights.

[Train Guy 3]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

You see U.S. military equipment in action all the time on CNN. What's the big deal about taking a photo of it going down the track in the U.S.

First of all, Let me clarify that I'm not some "rah rah,.. go team!" patiotic nutjob trying to stand up for our military against what you say.


But, I think what you are overlooking is how carefully set up, and screened , those CNN news videos are, before they ever get piped into your living room.

They make dang sure nothing sensitive is on those loops before they ever go public

Which is one reason that israel attacks Palestinian TV stations as though they were military targets, but that is a seperate subject.

A person photographing armored personnel carriers shipped on flats, on the other hand, is totally beyond the military's control, and could just as easily be looking for vulnerabilities...THAT is why they don't want you photo'ing them

Don't worry though,...as with all things, it's only a crime if you get caught.

I have no cable I don't even get CNN. I'm just making a simple point. No one else is going to see the few photo i do take that would compromise security and I'm not going to sell my country out. So nothing to worry about.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

Apparently your security people never heard
of the first amendment.
Dave

It's that sign placed prominently at the gate - if you enter the property, you are consenting to it. Every one I've ever seen includes their right to search you and your vehicle.

While "national security" is a highly questionable (most would say it was no) excuse for hassling railfans who are otherwise legal, it does become a factor on a defense installation.

On the other hand, I've taken dozens of pictures in and around the installation where I work. There are some pretty photogenic spots. I've never had a single problem. If I wanted to get pictures of the military trains we have, I can stand on a public highway, right outside the gate, and get all I want. I just avoid doing so on base.

Actually....Executive Order 1014 from 1950 and the remaining portions of the Internal Security Act of 1950 do say that photography of military equipment can be made illegal if deemed important to national security. Photography of a trainload of tanks from public property.....probably hard to take to court. Photography of an installation from public property...probably get you questioned.....on base...unless it's an airshow or public event....you are at the mercy of the base commander...and that does include DOD contract facilities. BNSF's comment was most likely done in the spirit of trying to do the right thing...which is not hiding, but not advertising military moves.

Dan

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3

You see U.S. military equipment in action all the time on CNN. What's the big deal about taking a photo of it going down the track in the U.S.

First of all, Let me clarify that I'm not some "rah rah,.. go team!" patiotic nutjob trying to stand up for our military against what you say.


But, I think what you are overlooking is how carefully set up, and screened , those CNN news videos are, before they ever get piped into your living room.

They make dang sure nothing sensitive is on those loops before they ever go public

Which is one reason that israel attacks Palestinian TV stations as though they were military targets, but that is a seperate subject.

A person photographing armored personnel carriers shipped on flats, on the other hand, is totally beyond the military's control, and could just as easily be looking for vulnerabilities...THAT is why they don't want you photo'ing them

Don't worry though,...as with all things, it's only a crime if you get caught.

I have no cable I don't even get CNN. I'm just making a simple point. No one else is going to see the few photo i do take that would compromise security and I'm not going to sell my country out. So nothing to worry about.

No one is implying you would but there are those whose intentions may not be so honerable. If you were the only one interested in our military movements it would not be an issue. If only it were a perfect world. [2c]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Train Guy 3


I have no cable I don't even get CNN. I'm just making a simple point. No one else is going to see the few photo i do take that would compromise security and I'm not going to sell my country out. So nothing to worry about.

Well, you see, the government doesn't know that you are harmless, and would preferr to not have to take the time to determine if you are or you aren't, when it's easier for them to just say "don't do it, and if you do it anyway, we are gonna mess with you big time"

When I said it was Only a crime if you get caught , here's what I meant:

A MP comes along, catches you, and starts to apprehend you.

You try the ol "What am I doing wrong?" gambit, and with the outright prohibition, the line level MP doesn't have to be smart enough to make an on the spot field determination if what he caught you doing is "wrong"..He will ahve enough "power" to haul you in, just for being there, and you will likely be interrogated by a skilled inspector who will be able to look at your film and decide quite accurately what you've done "wrong".

That's my opinion anyway. cops on the beat are not gonna be trained lawyers, they think from the neck down. So the rules they are paid to enforce are written to take that into account.

[Anonymous]

Of course we have troops in harm's way.

But if you think photographing a military
train from public property is going to
jeopardize national securtiy you are
either paranoid or naive.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

From WWII "Loose Lips Sink Ships". Last time I checked we still had troops in harms way. Do what you want but they die everyday to help protect your rights.

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

Of course we have troops in harm's way.
But if you think photographing a military
train from public property is going to
jeopardize national securtiy you are
either paranoid or naive.
Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

From WWII "Loose Lips Sink Ships". Last time I checked we still had troops in harms way. Do what you want but they die everyday to help protect your rights.

Are you realy nieve enough to beleive that there is no one here who's interested in doing our boy's harm. Was 9-11an illusion. There is a known international market for Hy-Res photo's of the latest versions of our military hardware. They are currenty doing product testing everyday in Irag with road side bombs. If you are unable to make the conection stop in to your local Armed Forces Recruiting center and maybe they can explain it better. [B)] [V] [xx(]

[Anonymous]

Apparently you have never seen or
read Jane's Defence Weekly.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

Of course we have troops in harm's way.
But if you think photographing a military
train from public property is going to
jeopardize national securtiy you are
either paranoid or naive.
Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

From WWII "Loose Lips Sink Ships". Last time I checked we still had troops in harms way. Do what you want but they die everyday to help protect your rights.

Are you realy nieve enough to beleive that there is no one here who's interested in doing our boy's harm. Was 9-11an illusion. There is a known international market for Hy-Res photo's of the latest versions of our military hardware. They are currenty doing product testing everyday in Irag with road side bombs. If you are unable to make the conection stop in to your local Armed Forces Recruiting center and maybe they can explain it better. [B)] [V] [xx(]

[Anonymous]

The main reason that taking pictures of military moves (and posting them) is a "risk" is the move itself, not the equipment. There are plenty of pictures of all our equipment all over the world; a photo of a tank on a train would have no added value.

The risk comes from making it any easier for the enemy to track which units are moving where, and when. If the armor for Unit X is moving toward an eastern port, then guess what, Unit X is probably shipping out. Is the train the only way for the enemy to find this out? Hell no. There are scores of ways, the most reliable of which is the members of Unit X blabbing all over town where they're going and when they're leaving. The point is, every little thing adds up. If the move was actually super-secret, they would indeed tarp the load, and protect the train. But it's not "super secret," it's just one more little tid bit of information we're providing the enemy, or potential enemy, about our intentions and capabilities if we post them all over the internet in near real time. A couple pictures of a military train will NOT ruin the war effort. But it may very well provide a tiny piece of information to someone who wants to do us harm. Three, four, or twenty of these little pieces of information can indeed add up to give an enemy actionable intelligence concerning our capabilties abroad, or our vulnerabilities at home. Just something to think about.

[rrandb]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

Apparently you have never seen or
read Jane's Defence Weekly.
Dave

Are you insinuating that Jane's is out there secretly photographing military transport trains? Maybe that Al-Quida has an account with Jane's. If Hussein had access to Jane's complete data base he would have turned and fled before we ever fired the first shot. So what does a proffesional Defense consulting company have to do with individuals photographing military trains.

[Anonymous]

This part of your statement is one of the dumbest
things I have read on this forum.

This is not 1944 and our enemy is not the ***.

You are still fighting the last war.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by LAHDPOP

A couple pictures of a military train will NOT ruin the war effort. But it may very well provide a tiny piece of information to someone who wants to do us harm. Three, four, or twenty of these little pieces of information can indeed add up to give an enemy actionable intelligence concerning our capabilties abroad, or our vulnerabilities at home. Just something to think about.

[Anonymous]

If you knew anything about Jane's,
you would understand that it publishes
information and photographs of the
latest military hardware, ours and
the rest of the world's.

And, yes, all of the major militaries
on the globe buy Jane's products.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

Apparently you have never seen or
read Jane's Defence Weekly.
Dave

Are you insinuating that Jane's is out there secretly photographing military transport trains? Maybe that Al-Quida has an account with Jane's. If Hussein had access to Jane's complete data base he would have turned and fled before we ever fired the first shot. So what does a proffesional Defense consulting company have to do with individuals photographing military trains.

[doghouse]

Yet another thread gone astray.[:(][B)]