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Clouds From Chinese Coal Cast a Long Shadow

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Posted by MichaelSol on Saturday, June 17, 2006 12:51 PM
Recent articles about Mars undergoing a global warming trend similar to Earth's were interesting, but no one has figured out a political angle on that one yet, so not much about it in the MSM.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 17, 2006 5:29 PM
You haven't heard that the Mars faction can no longer pull in "My Favorite Martian" on 'Nick at Nite' on their antennae. Their agitators say that there's no place like home, and global warming is the cause. They're pushing for inclusion in the Kyoto Treaty. It'll all be revealed in Al's forthcoming book, "I invented the Universe".
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Posted by vsmith on Saturday, June 17, 2006 5:51 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

I read recently that the increase in the number of UFO sightings has gone up at about the same rate as the global temperature. D'ya think there's a connection? Space Aliens beaming infrared waves at our sky causing temps to rise! They are trying to melt all the ice and flood the lands. That's what happened when Noah built his ark. Soon the inhabitants of Venus will arrive in full force to claim the earth as their own, forcing us to do their bidding. They already messed up their own planet with carbon dioxide emissions, so now they need the earth. The Venusians already have their spies installed as the political leaders of the major countries, and they have secret meetings where they decide their strategies. Those citizens that disobey will be taken away in boxcars equipped with shackles and taken to the alien's secret bases which are now cleverly disguised as old military facilities.[alien]

Keep that foil hat handy!

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 17, 2006 7:23 PM
Which will be followed by George W. Bush's
new book on evolutionary biology, "Intelligent
Design and the Origins of - My Political - Life."

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

You haven't heard that the Mars faction can no longer pull in "My Favorite Martian" on 'Nick at Nite' on their antennae. Their agitators say that there's no place like home, and global warming is the cause. They're pushing for inclusion in the Kyoto Treaty. It'll all be revealed in Al's forthcoming book, "I invented the Universe".
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Posted by Hugh Jampton on Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:59 AM
Here's a thought. Global warming is caused by excessive CO2 in the atmosphere (allegedly). Where does this CO2 come from? It's a product of combustion. Take 1 atom of carbon from coal or oil combine it with 2 atoms of oxygen and you get heat which we use to do work and CO2. Where does the oxygen come from? The atmosphere I suppose. So, if the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing then the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere must be decreasing as there's only a finite amount of oxygen on the planet. So at what point do we all suffocate?
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:12 AM
Agreed, dsktc. I'd just rather put effort into buying 7th Generation or Earth Friendly instead of Joy or Dawn, and let the windbags find a vacuum elsewhere. I think it's a better action to take.

Better get back to trains.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:35 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Here's a thought. Global warming is caused by excessive CO2 in the atmosphere (allegedly). Where does this CO2 come from? It's a product of combustion. Take 1 atom of carbon from coal or oil combine it with 2 atoms of oxygen and you get heat which we use to do work and CO2. Where does the oxygen come from? The atmosphere I suppose. So, if the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing then the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere must be decreasing as there's only a finite amount of oxygen on the planet. So at what point do we all suffocate?


Except oxygen isn't finite. It is created by plants. Plants take in CO2 and produce O2. More CO2 in the atmosphere means more plants producing more O2.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 12:32 PM
Tonight 60-Minutes will run a story about the reason why sharks are getting meaner. I wonder if the reason could be global warming. We'll have to wait and see.
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Posted by zardoz on Sunday, June 18, 2006 12:42 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by EUCLID TRAVIS

Tonight 60-Minutes will run a story about the reason why sharks are getting meaner. I wonder if the reason could be global warming. We'll have to wait and see.

See my previous post....it's the Venusians using infrared waves to heat our water so more evaporates which in turn causes an increase in water vapor which in turn warms the planet via greenhouse effect which causes more water to evaporate and so on and on until earth becomes just like Venus and then they will invade our planet.
[alien][alien][alien]
See, Vic...my foil hat works quite well.
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Posted by Hugh Jampton on Sunday, June 18, 2006 1:53 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Here's a thought. Global warming is caused by excessive CO2 in the atmosphere (allegedly). Where does this CO2 come from? It's a product of combustion. Take 1 atom of carbon from coal or oil combine it with 2 atoms of oxygen and you get heat which we use to do work and CO2. Where does the oxygen come from? The atmosphere I suppose. So, if the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing then the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere must be decreasing as there's only a finite amount of oxygen on the planet. So at what point do we all suffocate?


Except oxygen isn't finite. It is created by plants. Plants take in CO2 and produce O2. More CO2 in the atmosphere means more plants producing more O2.


But it's the same oxygen atoms, no new ones are being made, that requires fusion in a star.
Then why is the amount of CO2 rising? If the CO2 content of the atmosphere rises there must be less oxygen in the atmosphere.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 2:40 PM
The main cause of this so called "Global Warming" is Al Gore. All this hot air that he is spewing has to be doing something. And since he is promoting Global Warming, eventually it will happen. It could be in 10 years or 1000 years. If I remember from school that the ice age happens in cycles in about 10,000 years, and the last one was a few thousand years ago, doesn't that mean we are still coming out of the most recent ice age?

FYI-gas consumption in the US only increased .4% while china and india increased around 15%.

China wants global domination. They can't do that by military so they are trying to do it with domination of the global market. Look at oil, look at scrap metal, look at copper, and soon, look at gold. Buy now. China wants to buy a years worth of mined gold, which would leave nothing to everybody else.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 18, 2006 5:24 PM
Yes China is going to suck all the oxygen out of the room so to speak, with respect to nautural resources. Within the next few years millions and millions of Chinese are going to start driving cars for the first time. They have an impossibly cheap labor base that is going to suck manufacturing out of the western countries until their standard of living and wages equalize with the west. And with the size of China's labor force, they will take over all of U.S. manufacturing before that equalization occurrs.
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Posted by solzrules on Sunday, June 18, 2006 6:44 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Soo-760

The main cause of this so called "Global Warming" is Al Gore. All this hot air that he is spewing has to be doing something. And since he is promoting Global Warming, eventually it will happen. It could be in 10 years or 1000 years. If I remember from school that the ice age happens in cycles in about 10,000 years, and the last one was a few thousand years ago, doesn't that mean we are still coming out of the most recent ice age?

FYI-gas consumption in the US only increased .4% while china and india increased around 15%.

China wants global domination. They can't do that by military so they are trying to do it with domination of the global market. Look at oil, look at scrap metal, look at copper, and soon, look at gold. Buy now. China wants to buy a years worth of mined gold, which would leave nothing to everybody else.


Surely not Al Gore?!!![(-D][(-D][(-D]
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 11:24 AM
From today's New York Times:

"NEW SMYRNA BEACH, Fla. — When scientists consider the possible effects of global warming, there is a lot they don't know. But they can say one thing for sure: sea levels will rise.

"This rising water will be felt along the artificially maintained beaches of New Jersey, in the vanishing marshes of Louisiana, even on the ocean bluffs of California. According to a 2000 report by the Heinz Center for Science, Economics and the Environment, at least a quarter of the houses within 500 feet of the United States coast may be lost to rising seas by 2060. There were 350,000 of these houses when the report was written, but today there are far more.

"If it is as bad as people are saying, at some point it will be a crisis," said Thomas Tomasello of Tallahassee, Fla., a lawyer who represents many owners of coastal property. But he does not dwell on it. "I cannot deal with sea level rise," he said. "That's such a huge issue."

"Though most of the country's ocean beaches are eroding, few coastal jurisdictions consider sea level rise in their coastal planning, and still fewer incorporate the fact that the rise is accelerating. Instead, they are sticking with policies that geologists say may help them in the short term but will be untenable or even destructive in the future."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/20/science/earth/20sea.html

Dave
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Posted by solzrules on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:54 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

From today's New York Times:

"NEW SMYRNA BEACH, Fla. — When scientists consider the possible effects of global warming, there is a lot they don't know. But they can say one thing for sure: sea levels will rise."


Sounds like rock solid science to me. I think we should start litigating insurance settlements imediately. [:D]

Also, as I read through the article I began to notice a distinct bias - scientists don't know everything for sure but they know the sea levels will rise (begs the question a little bit doesn't it?); when discussing the ramifications of coastal flooding who do we interview: a lawyer; the article also seems to indicate that the truly 'prepared' towns will have contingency plans for global warming and rising sea levels (which of course means the town would have to subscribe to the theory of global warming, which according to the article, there is a lot they don't know about.)

I began to think to myself, hmmmm. What author or editor would write such an article where the conclusion presupposes the cause? Ah yes, I give you the NEW YORK TIMES, ladies and gentlemen!
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Posted by rrandb on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 7:14 PM
Has anyone mentioned that the Chinese consume one third the amount of coal that we do per capita? That they have a program that currently is bringing 120,000 people on line for 100% renewable (solar) energy. We should clean up our own house before we point fingers at anyone else. Not to mention the most aggressive Hydro-Electric program of any nation? [?].
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Posted by solzrules on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 9:00 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

Has anyone mentioned that the Chinese consume one third the amount of coal that we do per capita? That they have a program that currently is bringing 120,000 people on line for 100% renewable (solar) energy. We should clean up our own house before we point fingers at anyone else. Not to mention the most aggressive Hydro-Electric program of any nation? [?].



HEE HEE HEE I saw China's new 'hydro-electric' project on TV. They basically threw a dam in on the end of the Chinese version of the Colorado river (except it is a lot bigger and I think it is called the Yang See river and yes, I am sure that is spelled wrong) and let the canyons fill up with water. tens of thousands, no, maybe hundreds of thousands of people were displaced. Villages were bulldozed and sacred shrines plowed under the earth so they wouldn't scrape the hulls of boats that would be moving on the new river. Such a project would NEVER occur here in the US due to enviromental regulations. Imagine filling in the grand canyon with a lake so we could have hydro-electric power. Talk about ruining the enviroment in the name of progress.
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Posted by rrandb on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 9:26 PM
You obviously have never heard of TVA, Hoover dam, the Grand Coulie dam, etc. etc. The TVA dams displaced more people than live in the state of RI. You must of been home sick that day in school.[#oops]
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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 9:45 PM
PS the Glen Canyon dam did block a canyon some considered equal in granduer to the Grand Canyon, and its still there....also the Snake, Columbia,Colorado and innumerable western rivers have huge HUGE hyrdo-electric dams all up and down the rivers bottling millions of acres of water behind them covering old towns, roads, RR's etc. The 3 Rivers project in China is just on a bigger scale, and it would never happen here because no one in our government is willing to spend the money on it unless they are getting thier palms and their supporters palms greased in return, either that or it needs a huge wealthy lobbiest group behind it....

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Posted by solzrules on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 4:44 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

PS the Glen Canyon dam did block a canyon some considered equal in granduer to the Grand Canyon, and its still there....also the Snake, Columbia,Colorado and innumerable western rivers have huge HUGE hyrdo-electric dams all up and down the rivers bottling millions of acres of water behind them covering old towns, roads, RR's etc. The 3 Rivers project in China is just on a bigger scale, and it would never happen here because no one in our government is willing to spend the money on it unless they are getting thier palms and their supporters palms greased in return, either that or it needs a huge wealthy lobbiest group behind it....


or it just isn't economically viable......
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Posted by solzrules on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 4:48 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

You obviously have never heard of TVA, Hoover dam, the Grand Coulie dam, etc. etc. The TVA dams displaced more people than live in the state of RI. You must of been home sick that day in school.[#oops]



None of those ***s misplaced that many people. (Do you have Info??? I make a habit of not believing every thing I hear. I done learnt that in school. [:D])

Also, the U.S. government wasn't out bulldozing cities flat so boats could pass above them after the river filled out. If they did, I am sure there would be a lawsuit or two (don't you think??). The neat thing about communist China is that they can just decree that is what will be done. End of story. Kiss your belongings good-bye. Thank God for the U.S.A.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 22, 2006 3:38 PM
From the National Academy of Sciences:

Date: June 22, 2006

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

'High Confidence' That Planet Is Warmest in 400 Years;
Less Confidence in Temperature Reconstructions Prior to 1600

WASHINGTON -- There is sufficient evidence from tree rings, boreholes, retreating glaciers, and other "proxies" of past surface temperatures to say with a high level of confidence that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any comparable period in the last 400 years, according to a new report from the National Research Council. Less confidence can be placed in proxy-based reconstructions of surface temperatures for A.D. 900 to 1600, said the committee that wrote the report, although the available proxy evidence does indicate that many locations were warmer during the past 25 years than during any other 25-year period since 900. Very little confidence can be placed in statements about average global surface temperatures prior to A.D. 900 because the proxy data for that time frame are sparse, the committee added.

Scientists rely on proxies to reconstruct paleoclimatic surface temperatures because geographically widespread records of temperatures measured with instruments date back only about 150 years. Other proxies include corals, ocean and lake sediments, ice cores, cave deposits, and documentary sources, such as historic drawings of glaciers. The globally averaged warming of about 1 degree Fahrenheit (0.6 degrees Celsius) that instruments have recorded during the last century is also reflected in proxy data for that time period, the committee noted.

The report was requested by Congress after a controversy arose last year over surface temperature reconstructions published by climatologist Michael Mann and his colleagues in the late 1990s. The researchers concluded that the warming of the Northern Hemisphere in the last decades of the 20th century was unprecedented in the past thousand years. In particular, they concluded that the 1990s were the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year. Their graph depicting a rise in temperatures at the end of a long era became known as the "hockey stick."

The Research Council committee found the Mann team's conclusion that warming in the last few decades of the 20th century was unprecedented over the last thousand years to be plausible, but it had less confidence that the warming was unprecedented prior to 1600; fewer proxies -- in fewer locations -- provide temperatures for periods before then. Because of larger uncertainties in temperature reconstructions for decades and individual years, and because not all proxies record temperatures for such short timescales, even less confidence can be placed in the Mann team's conclusions about the 1990s, and 1998 in particular.

The committee noted that scientists' reconstructions of Northern Hemisphere surface temperatures for the past thousand years are generally consistent. The reconstructions show relatively warm conditions centered around the year 1000, and a relatively cold period, or "Little Ice Age," from roughly 1500 to 1850. The exact timing of warm episodes in the medieval period may have varied by region, and the magnitude and geographical extent of the warmth is uncertain, the committee said. None of the reconstructions indicates that temperatures were warmer during medieval times than during the past few decades, the committee added.

The scarcity of precisely dated proxy evidence for temperatures before 1600, especially in the Southern Hemisphere, is the main reason there is less confidence in global reconstructions dating back further than that. Other factors that limit confidence include the short length of the instrumental record, which is used to calibrate and validate reconstructions, and the possibility that the relationship between proxy data and local surface temperatures may have varied over time. It also is difficult to estimate a mean global temperature using data from a limited number of sites. On the other hand, confidence in large-scale reconstructions is boosted by the fact that the proxies on which they are based generally exhibit strong correlations with local environmental conditions. Confidence increases further when multiple independent lines of evidence point to the same general phenomenon, such as the Little Ice Age.

Collecting additional proxy data, especially for years before 1600 and for areas where the current data are relatively sparse, would increase our understanding of temperature variations over the last 2,000 years, the report says. In addition, improving access to data on which published temperature reconstructions are based would boost confidence in the results. The report also notes that new analytical methods, or more careful use of existing methods, might help circumvent some of the current limitations associated with large-scale reconstructions.

The committee pointed out that surface temperature reconstructions for periods before the Industrial Revolution -- when levels of atmospheric greenhouse gases were much lower -- are only one of multiple lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that current warming is occurring in response to human activities, and they are not the primary evidence.

The National Research Council is the principal operating arm of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering. It is a private, nonprofit institution that provides science and technology advice under a congressional charter. A committee roster follows.

Copies of Surface Temperature Reconstructions for the Last 2,000 Years will be available from the National Academies Press; tel. 202-334-3313 or 1-800-624-6242 or on the Internet at http://www.nap.edu. Reporters may obtain a pre-publication copy from the Office of News and Public Information (contacts listed above).

http://nationalacademies.org/

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/22/science/22cnd-climate.html?

Dave
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 22, 2006 7:06 PM
There is a conspicuous over-urgency in the pitching of global warming. It seems pretty obvious that it is difficult to get people riled up over fraction of a degree temperature rise over the course of 100 years. So to help with the riling up, every conceivable bad thing that can happen or is happening is being linked global warming as the cause.

Last night I was informed by the networks that the western fires were likely being caused by global warming. Tonight they told me again. They also told me tonight that gobal warming is a fact, and no longer debatable. ABC has a website where you can go and report how global warming is affecting you. I wonder if you can go there and debate whether gobal warming is happening. Probably not since it is no longer debatable.

One thing is for sure: Whatever the pain of the supposed effects of global warming, it will be nothing compared to the pain that will result if everybody agrees that it is happening.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 22, 2006 7:31 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

PS the Glen Canyon dam did block a canyon some considered equal in granduer to the Grand Canyon, and its still there....also the Snake, Columbia,Colorado and innumerable western rivers have huge HUGE hyrdo-electric dams all up and down the rivers bottling millions of acres of water behind them covering old towns, roads, RR's etc. The 3 Rivers project in China is just on a bigger scale, and it would never happen here because no one in our government is willing to spend the money on it unless they are getting thier palms and their supporters palms greased in return, either that or it needs a huge wealthy lobbiest group behind it....


So, you have something against lakes? Resevoirs are just lakes, and such have their environmental benefits too. Not to mention increased recreational value over free flowing rivers. Lakes and reservoirs provide users with more H20 surface area than free flowing rivers.

BTW, all those old towns, roads, RR's, etc now under water behind US dams were usually replaced in better condition than pre-dam. Roads and railroad alignments post-dam are usually of more tangents and broad sweeping curvature than the old riverside alignments. Before all those dams were built on the Columbia, the UP line along there was just curve after rock fall curve. Now it's fast track (albeit congested fast track!)

Of course, it is doubtful the Chinese are replacing the old towns and villages with anything to write home about. Stewardship isn't in their lexicon.
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Posted by solzrules on Thursday, June 22, 2006 8:37 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by dsktc

From the National Academy of Sciences:

Date: June 22, 2006

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

'High Confidence' That Planet Is Warmest in 400 Years;
Less Confidence in Temperature Reconstructions Prior to 1600

WASHINGTON -- There is sufficient evidence from tree rings, boreholes, retreating glaciers, and other "proxies" of past surface temperatures to say with a high level of confidence that the last few decades of the 20th century were warmer than any comparable period in the last 400 years, according to a new report from the National Research Council. Less confidence can be placed in proxy-based reconstructions of surface temperatures for A.D. 900 to 1600, said the committee that wrote the report, although the available proxy evidence does indicate that many locations were warmer during the past 25 years than during any other 25-year period since 900. Very little confidence can be placed in statements about average global surface temperatures prior to A.D. 900 because the proxy data for that time frame are sparse, the committee added.

Scientists rely on proxies to reconstruct paleoclimatic surface temperatures because geographically widespread records of temperatures measured with instruments date back only about 150 years. Other proxies include corals, ocean and lake sediments, ice cores, cave deposits, and documentary sources, such as historic drawings of glaciers. The globally averaged warming of about 1 degree Fahrenheit (0.6 degrees Celsius) that instruments have recorded during the last century is also reflected in proxy data for that time period, the committee noted.

The report was requested by Congress after a controversy arose last year over surface temperature reconstructions published by climatologist Michael Mann and his colleagues in the late 1990s. The researchers concluded that the warming of the Northern Hemisphere in the last decades of the 20th century was unprecedented in the past thousand years. In particular, they concluded that the 1990s were the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year. Their graph depicting a rise in temperatures at the end of a long era became known as the "hockey stick."

The Research Council committee found the Mann team's conclusion that warming in the last few decades of the 20th century was unprecedented over the last thousand years to be plausible, but it had less confidence that the warming was unprecedented prior to 1600; fewer proxies -- in fewer locations -- provide temperatures for periods before then. Because of larger uncertainties in temperature reconstructions for decades and individual years, and because not all proxies record temperatures for such short timescales, even less confidence can be placed in the Mann team's conclusions about the 1990s, and 1998 in particular.

The committee noted that scientists' reconstructions of Northern Hemisphere surface temperatures for the past thousand years are generally consistent. The reconstructions show relatively warm conditions centered around the year 1000, and a relatively cold period, or "Little Ice Age," from roughly 1500 to 1850. The exact timing of warm episodes in the medieval period may have varied by region, and the magnitude and geographical extent of the warmth is uncertain, the committee said. None of the reconstructions indicates that temperatures were warmer during medieval times than during the past few decades, the committee added.

The scarcity of precisely dated proxy evidence for temperatures before 1600, especially in the Southern Hemisphere, is the main reason there is less confidence in global reconstructions dating back further than that. Other factors that limit confidence include the short length of the instrumental record, which is used to calibrate and validate reconstructions, and the possibility that the relationship between proxy data and local surface temperatures may have varied over time. It also is difficult to estimate a mean global temperature using data from a limited number of sites. On the other hand, confidence in large-scale reconstructions is boosted by the fact that the proxies on which they are based generally exhibit strong correlations with local environmental conditions. Confidence increases further when multiple independent lines of evidence point to the same general phenomenon, such as the Little Ice Age.

Collecting additional proxy data, especially for years before 1600 and for areas where the current data are relatively sparse, would increase our understanding of temperature variations over the last 2,000 years, the report says. In addition, improving access to data on which published temperature reconstructions are based would boost confidence in the results. The report also notes that new analytical methods, or more careful use of existing methods, might help circumvent some of the current limitations associated with large-scale reconstructions.

The committee pointed out that surface temperature reconstructions for periods before the Industrial Revolution -- when levels of atmospheric greenhouse gases were much lower -- are only one of multiple lines of evidence supporting the conclusion that current warming is occurring in response to human activities, and they are not the primary evidence.

The National Research Council is the principal operating arm of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering. It is a private, nonprofit institution that provides science and technology advice under a congressional charter. A committee roster follows.

Copies of Surface Temperature Reconstructions for the Last 2,000 Years will be available from the National Academies Press; tel. 202-334-3313 or 1-800-624-6242 or on the Internet at http://www.nap.edu. Reporters may obtain a pre-publication copy from the Office of News and Public Information (contacts listed above).

http://nationalacademies.org/

http://www.realclimate.org/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/22/science/22cnd-climate.html?

Dave


That's really great - but it still doesn't explain how greenhouse gases brought about the first ice age. If they were much lower back then how did it happen?
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Posted by rrandb on Thursday, June 22, 2006 8:40 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by solzrules

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrandb

You obviously have never heard of TVA, Hoover dam, the Grand Coulie dam, etc. etc. The TVA dams displaced more people than live in the state of RI. You must of been home sick that day in school.[#oops]



None of those ***s misplaced that many people. (Do you have Info??? I make a habit of not believing every thing I hear. I done learnt that in school. [:D])

Also, the U.S. government wasn't out bulldozing cities flat so boats could pass above them after the river filled out. If they did, I am sure there would be a lawsuit or two (don't you think??). The neat thing about communist China is that they can just decree that is what will be done. End of story. Kiss your belongings good-bye. Thank God for the U.S.A.
During the depression the good ole' USA could and did what it wanted to for the good of the majority. Here is a link to the TVA history by them. http://www.tva.gov/abouttva/history.htm They condemed peoples land, homes, factories, railroads, whatever was in their way for the good of all. In the seven states surronding the 1,000 mile long Tennessee River Valley if you were in their way you moved. You will notice in their official history there is no mention of anyone being displaced? They all just left by majic. Yet there are still roads that lead to the edge of the lakes and just disapear onward towards the towns that are underwater. China is just 80 years behind us but learning fast.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:28 PM
Okay, daring to be dumb here. Some questions. This report talks about surface temperatures. What about temperatures higher up in the atmosphere? Is there no way to determine their past nature compared with today? And do they have more of an impact on overall climate?

This whole existence we're part of is dynamic. We can't hold time still. In terms of eras of time, carbon moves back and forth from solid states to gaseous states. How are we to know what is "liveable"?

As far as we can predict, the Earth will use up its core heat eventually, and turn into a cold rock like our neighboring planets. To aspire into the future, should we as humans focus more on developing ways of existing that are not tied to living conditions on Earth?
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 22, 2006 10:58 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Okay, daring to be dumb here. Some questions. This report talks about surface temperatures. What about temperatures higher up in the atmosphere? Is there no way to determine their past nature compared with today? And do they have more of an impact on overall climate?

This whole existence we're part of is dynamic. We can't hold time still. In terms of eras of time, carbon moves back and forth from solid states to gaseous states. How are we to know what is "liveable"?

As far as we can predict, the Earth will use up its core heat eventually, and turn into a cold rock like our neighboring planets. To aspire into the future, should we as humans focus more on developing ways of existing that are not tied to living conditions on Earth?


Good questions. I once asked a scientist why the earth is hot inside. I'll bet you can't guess what he told me.

The weather changes all the time. The seasons change. It would not be improbable, and evidence suggests, that the climate changes as well. It is not clear that the change will cause significant damage, and it is certainly not clear that man's burning of fossil fuels is causing it. And yet we are barraged by this shrill crisis mongering that is blowing this up to near Biblical proportions as though it is nature's revenge for the material sins of mankind and especially the developed world.
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: K.C.,MO.
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Posted by rrandb on Friday, June 23, 2006 8:24 AM
Less confidence in there data before 400 years ago translates to they are unable to meet the criteria for Proof. As per an interview with said scientist on NPR. Any further back than that is an educated guess. There crystal tree rings are just too fuzzy for them to call them facts.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 23, 2006 4:23 PM
From the NYT:

"SHANGMA HUANGTOU, China — When Wei Yong returned home to his ancestral village last year to visit his 77-year-old mother, he heard about the tremors. Late one night, the residents told him, the village was rocked by what everyone thought was an earthquake. The ground shook. The houses trembled. And the earth cracked open.

"Liu Run told me her walls were about to cave in," Mr. Wei said. "My sister says everywhere is sinking. She won't even let the dog roam free at night."

"There was no earthquake, however. Instead, here in this small village in the central province of Shanxi, three large coal mining operations had been burrowing underground for coal — day and night, sometimes with dynamite. And from far below, they had cracked the earth.

"The village of Shangma Huangtou is just the latest victim of a coal mining boom that is devastating large swaths of north China, where some of the nation's richest coal deposits lie. China is the world's largest producer of coal, and much of it is mined here.

"While Shanxi provides the fuel that powers China's sizzling economy, thousands of acres of land are sinking because of the ravages of underground coal mining."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/23/business/worldbusiness/23sinking.html?

Dave

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