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Railroads Struggle to Deliver Coal to Utilities

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 19, 2006 8:58 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

OK - baby steps.....

Railroads sold off a lot of "assets" - rail lines and ROW? Is that correct? And you think they should have held onto them. Still correct?

How would they do that w/o becoming over-extended in the accounting department?
Had they kept all their original acquisitions and holdings, how would they make enough $ to cover all the expenses?

Mook


I would argue this: It often costs more to go through abandonment proceedings and to physically remove rails and ties, than it is to just keep it all there as is. If property taxes are that extreme (and in most cases they are not big cost drivers), just give it all to the taxing authority and let them deal with it. The likelyhood is, if the line has future merit, the local jurisdiction will keep it in a mothballed state until growth warrants a reopening of the line in question. And of course, if the line is then reopened, guess who gets the business? The original Class I owner.

Can you name any other transporation mode that engages in wholesale retrenchment of the ROW? Highways? No. Waterways? No. Airports? No. Pipelines? No. Transmission lines? No.

Nope, just the railroads. That should tell you something right there.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 19, 2006 5:41 PM
Bert, as a native of Western PA,
I have seen the impact of the decline
of the domestic steel industry.

I agree that the steel industry had a
"canabalistic attitude toward its hard assets."
However, life is a little more complicated
than FM realizes.

Although the major, vertically-integrated steel
producers began closing mills in the late 1970s and
early 80s, and several major manufacturers
have since disappeared, the American steel industry today,
thanks to technology, is much more productive and
efficient than it was in steel's heydey.

There is also more competition from non-union
mini-mills and foreign producers as well
as from alternative materials, e.g., aluminum.
These factors would have compelled the closure
of obsolete open hearths and blast furnaces that
were no longer required.

Obviously, the wage, health care and pension liabilities
Detroit is now confronting were experienced by
Big Steel. Some steel companies survived and prospered,
some didn't, and, meanwhile, significant consolidation of the steel
industry, domestically and globally, has occured
and is ocurring.

Could US Steel have cold banked the blast furnaces
at Duquesne, the open hearths at Homestead, in anticipation
of a future demand? Of course, but it would not have made
fiscal or strategic sense at the time to do so, a point Dave,
aka Future Modal, doesn't seem to grasp about the RR
industry. But had US Steel done so, in 2006 it would
have had assets it could not afford and capacity it doesn't
need.

Dave


QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
[
Many other industries will maintain "unused" assets for long periods of time, because they understand the cyclical nature of business. Apparently, railroads do not understand this basic business tenet.

You see, if you scrap an asset, you don't have that asset later on when you need it. Now that the nation's energy and other transportation needs are such that abandoned lines would be put into play right now, it shows a lack of foresight (or a complete lack of concern) by the shortsighted railroad industry.

Don't these guys follow economic trends? Or did they think that the US was destined for a Soviet-style command economy, so why save assets if the railroads are going to be taken over by the federales?





Again, I will ask you this: Can you name any other industry besides the rail industry that has engaged in such a canabalistic attitude toward it's hard assets?



GM and Ford aren't shutting those plants to extract more pricing power, they're rather on the losing end of the intra-industry competitive battle, e.g. losing market share to other auto makers, subsequently closing their plants while others open new ones. Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, et al are not lopping off assets, are they?


. Since you wanted examples how about the steel industry? They have gotten rid of a lot of capacity since the 1950's, was that a monopoly conspiracy too? I look foward to the spin that you put on this.


Bert


I am still waiting for your spin on the steel industry.


Bert


Bert, are you a glutton for punishment? Do I really have to point out the illogic in your auto industry analogy?

Yes or no, let me know and we'll go from there. And I don't want anyone else piping in and claiming I'm being rude or insulting if Bert avers to carry this one further, okay? (That means you, Murph![:0])


So what your saying is that if I dare ask you for your spin on the steel industry, that gives you the right to insult me? Dave, YOU asked for any other industry that has gotten rid of its assets like the railroad. I have given you two, the auto industry, as there are less auto plants in the US than there were 50 years ago, and the steel industry. Now if the only reason that you have not responded is because you are incapable without insulting me, good, keep your mouth shut then, however if you have a response, and can make a point without name calling, I look foward to it.


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Posted by n012944 on Monday, June 19, 2006 4:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
[
Many other industries will maintain "unused" assets for long periods of time, because they understand the cyclical nature of business. Apparently, railroads do not understand this basic business tenet.

You see, if you scrap an asset, you don't have that asset later on when you need it. Now that the nation's energy and other transportation needs are such that abandoned lines would be put into play right now, it shows a lack of foresight (or a complete lack of concern) by the shortsighted railroad industry.

Don't these guys follow economic trends? Or did they think that the US was destined for a Soviet-style command economy, so why save assets if the railroads are going to be taken over by the federales?





Again, I will ask you this: Can you name any other industry besides the rail industry that has engaged in such a canabalistic attitude toward it's hard assets?



GM and Ford aren't shutting those plants to extract more pricing power, they're rather on the losing end of the intra-industry competitive battle, e.g. losing market share to other auto makers, subsequently closing their plants while others open new ones. Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, et al are not lopping off assets, are they?


. Since you wanted examples how about the steel industry? They have gotten rid of a lot of capacity since the 1950's, was that a monopoly conspiracy too? I look foward to the spin that you put on this.


Bert


I am still waiting for your spin on the steel industry.


Bert


Bert, are you a glutton for punishment? Do I really have to point out the illogic in your auto industry analogy?

Yes or no, let me know and we'll go from there. And I don't want anyone else piping in and claiming I'm being rude or insulting if Bert avers to carry this one further, okay? (That means you, Murph![:0])


So what your saying is that if I dare ask you for your spin on the steel industry, that gives you the right to insult me? Dave, YOU asked for any other industry that has gotten rid of its assets like the railroad. I have given you two, the auto industry, as there are less auto plants in the US than there were 50 years ago, and the steel industry. Now if the only reason that you have not responded is because you are incapable without insulting me, good, keep your mouth shut then, however if you have a response, and can make a point without name calling, I look foward to it.


Bert

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Posted by Mookie on Monday, June 19, 2006 9:07 AM
I would think the upkeep and taxes alone would be astronmical?

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Posted by waltersrails on Monday, June 19, 2006 8:56 AM
why get ride of track if your going to need it 120 years again down the line
I like NS but CSX has the B&O.
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Posted by Mookie on Monday, June 19, 2006 7:56 AM
OK - baby steps.....

Railroads sold off a lot of "assets" - rail lines and ROW? Is that correct? And you think they should have held onto them. Still correct?

How would they do that w/o becoming over-extended in the accounting department?
Had they kept all their original acquisitions and holdings, how would they make enough $ to cover all the expenses?

Mook

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Posted by Mookie on Monday, June 19, 2006 7:21 AM
PS - if you believe your POV is correct, why be so upset when someone disagrees with you. If you are confident - you don't have to defend it to the death. State your reasoning and try to see their side of it, too.

And just because someone posts ugly, doesn't mean you need to respond in kind. I don't think you will win any awards by being nasty to someone who has made you uncomfortable.

Just my POV.

Mook

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Posted by Mookie on Monday, June 19, 2006 7:16 AM
Been gone since noon on Friday - so will respond this morning.

Dave (FM) I have met with one of the gentlemen you refer to and personally talked to the other one. I can be as hard-headed as the next person but only on things I know a little about.

I am biased, since I like both of the gentlemen you refer to a great deal. So I won't haggle points with you there, unless you feel the need to do so. However, I would like to be able to understand a little more of where you are coming from to expand my horizons.

Sometimes a POV can be expressed as being the only written in stone version rather than a POV. I don't have a lot of time to read through 19 pages of someone expounding on their POV, but will read through anyone's POV if it will possibly give me some information on something I am interested. in.

I live where a railroad delivers coal to a utility. So I must take some time and go back and re-read all the above to figure out where your stance is. I will get back to you.

Mookie

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 17, 2006 12:15 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Dave:
Taking a stand on these forums poses little risk beyond some hurt feelings and possibly a little egg on one's face. The real test would be taking a stand when it would mean putting your job and/or professional reputation on the line. Those of us who have families who depend on us do not always have this option.

I am deducing by your self-righteousness and general tone that you are a recent college graduate and unmarried. Your responsibilites are relatively few and taking big risks will not hurt too many people beside yourself if they go wrong. You will realize in a few years when you have a wife and family that biting your tongue is often a necessity and taking big risks is no longer an option.

Learn to respect the differing opinions of others, you may actually learn something from them.


Words of wisdom, presented in a straightforward manner.
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, June 17, 2006 10:19 AM
Dave:
Taking a stand on these forums poses little risk beyond some hurt feelings and possibly a little egg on one's face. The real test would be taking a stand when it would mean putting your job and/or professional reputation on the line. Those of us who have families who depend on us do not always have this option.

I am deducing by your self-righteousness and general tone that you are a recent college graduate and unmarried. Your responsibilites are relatively few and taking big risks will not hurt too many people beside yourself if they go wrong. You will realize in a few years when you have a wife and family that biting your tongue is often a necessity and taking big risks is no longer an option.

Learn to respect the differing opinions of others, you may actually learn something from them.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, June 16, 2006 9:26 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
And I don't want anyone else piping in and claiming I'm being rude or insulting if Bert avers to carry this one further, okay? (That means you, Murph![:0])

[(-D][(-D][(-D]As you may recall, last time I got in the middle of one of your name-calling contests was when you and ironken were having an insult marathon. As it turns out, you were just trading insults from episodes of South Park![B)] My bad, I guess I miss out on a lot of American culture by not watching TV.[xx(] Please go ahead, and insult away. How you treat other people(especially strangers) helps people judge your character. Go for it. Other than credibility, what have you got to lose?[sigh]


Fine, I'll leave it up to you. Do I respond to Bert's et al question(s) with the same level of rudeness/insolence/etc. as they usually do, or do I just post the reply without any dramatics?

And in your wildest dreams Murph, do you really think responding without color will effect the way they do their little thing? 'Cause if you do, I've got a coal mine in Idaho I'd like to sell you!

And BTW, I've got a hunch regarding your character: You don't seem to be willing to stand for anything. You are unwilling to make a stand for what you believe or know, ostensibly because you are afraid of offending the *rail professionals* who participate on this forum, thus subjecting yourself to their inherent insult barrage.

Am I right or wrong?

Lordy, Lordy. I can tell you don't have any kids. [;)]You may do anything you wish. It's a free country. I post on these forums, mostly, to have a source for some interesting reading. There are lots of differing opinions, likes, and dislikes. Variety, is the spice of life, after all. How you carry yourself, and how you treat others is entirely up to you. As in most things in life, you'll get what you give.. As we keep telling our boys, you will never build yourself up by cutting other people down. If you want respect, be respectfull. If you need further advice, please feel free to write to Dear Abbey.[:)]
Anybody want to talk about trains?[;)]

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 16, 2006 8:29 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
And I don't want anyone else piping in and claiming I'm being rude or insulting if Bert avers to carry this one further, okay? (That means you, Murph![:0])

[(-D][(-D][(-D]As you may recall, last time I got in the middle of one of your name-calling contests was when you and ironken were having an insult marathon. As it turns out, you were just trading insults from episodes of South Park![B)] My bad, I guess I miss out on a lot of American culture by not watching TV.[xx(] Please go ahead, and insult away. How you treat other people(especially strangers) helps people judge your character. Go for it. Other than credibility, what have you got to lose?[sigh]


Fine, I'll leave it up to you. Do I respond to Bert's et al question(s) with the same level of rudeness/insolence/etc. as they usually do, or do I just post the reply without any dramatics?

And in your wildest dreams Murph, do you really think responding without color will effect the way they do their little thing? 'Cause if you do, I've got a coal mine in Idaho I'd like to sell you!

And BTW, I've got a hunch regarding your character: You don't seem to be willing to stand for anything. You are unwilling to make a stand for what you believe or know, ostensibly because you are afraid of offending the *rail professionals* who participate on this forum, thus subjecting yourself to their inherent insult barrage.

Am I right or wrong?
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Posted by rrandb on Friday, June 16, 2006 8:19 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

Sorry to bring the thread back on topic.....
Union Pacific moves record amount of coal
(The Associated Press circulated the following article on June 15.)
Union Pacific and BNSF Railway Co. -- the two main U.S. shippers of coal -- have been criticized in the past year for not keeping up with the coal demand of power generating companies.
Union Pacific Railroad has been sued by Entergy Arkansas, which claims the railroad schemed to hold back deliveries of Wyoming coal in an effort to make more money.
Union Pacific officials say the railroad is working to expand its capacity,
"Our strategic investments in our railroad infrastructure, equipment, people and technology are helping us move more trains for our customers."
Union Pacific said it is also installing additional signals in Iowa that will allow faster trains to pass slower trains on crossover tracks. And the Omaha-based railroad is improving connections in East St. Louis.
This is UP's PR on spin on its court troubles with Entergy Arkansas (EA) Which is not the only contract they are in default on. By now they may have delivered 2005's coal? They admit they do not have enough capacity due to signaling and track infrastructure. They are so for behind that they are unable to write any additional contracts for the above reasons. The only reason they beat last May's numbers is they were dreadful. That said they are where any good railroad should be. They are adding capacity as needed. Most railroads probably envey their predicament.
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, June 16, 2006 8:03 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
And I don't want anyone else piping in and claiming I'm being rude or insulting if Bert avers to carry this one further, okay? (That means you, Murph![:0])

[(-D][(-D][(-D]As you may recall, last time I got in the middle of one of your name-calling contests was when you and ironken were having an insult marathon. As it turns out, you were just trading insults from episodes of South Park![B)] My bad, I guess I miss out on a lot of American culture by not watching TV.[xx(] Please go ahead, and insult away. How you treat other people(especially strangers) helps people judge your character. Go for it. Other than credibility, what have you got to lose?[sigh]

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 16, 2006 7:52 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
Many other industries will maintain "unused" assets for long periods of time, because they understand the cyclical nature of business. Apparently, railroads do not understand this basic business tenet.

You see, if you scrap an asset, you don't have that asset later on when you need it. Now that the nation's energy and other transportation needs are such that abandoned lines would be put into play right now, it shows a lack of foresight (or a complete lack of concern) by the shortsighted railroad industry.

Don't these guys follow economic trends? Or did they think that the US was destined for a Soviet-style command economy, so why save assets if the railroads are going to be taken over by the federales?



Hey Dave- any chance you could make a quick list of the under-utilized or dormant rail lines that will be really busy 10 years from now? 20 years from now? That way, the railroads would have an easier time planning some of this stuff?[;)][:-,]


Again, I will ask you this: Can you name any other industry besides the rail industry that has engaged in such a canabalistic attitude toward it's hard assets?


The auto industry.


Nope, you're thinking of a few specific companies like GM or Ford, but not the aggregate industry as a whole, which continues to add assets.

GM and Ford aren't shutting those plants to extract more pricing power, they're rather on the losing end of the intra-industry competitive battle, e.g. losing market share to other auto makers, subsequently closing their plants while others open new ones. Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, et al are not lopping off assets, are they?


Thank you Dave. Since you understand the auto industry, let me put it in those terms. Think of the railroad industry in the early 80's as GM and Ford today. Then think of the trucking industry as Toyota, the air freight as Honda, and shipping as BMW. The railroads were losing out to new ways of doing things. The trucking industry was doing well with the expansion of the interstate highways, many of the 1st generation jet airliners were being moved from passenger to freight service, and the shipping industry was doing well with ACofE projects. Since you wanted examples how about the steel industry? They have gotten rid of a lot of capacity since the 1950's, was that a monopoly conspiracy too? I look foward to the spin that you put on this.


Bert


I am still waiting for your spin on the steel industry.


Bert


Bert, are you a glutton for punishment? Do I really have to point out the illogic in your auto industry analogy?

Yes or no, let me know and we'll go from there. And I don't want anyone else piping in and claiming I'm being rude or insulting if Bert avers to carry this one further, okay? (That means you, Murph![:0])
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 16, 2006 7:47 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

And Michael,
Your degrees and credentials would be?

I am glad to report they would be lengthier than yours. Very glad.
And this makes you......? Better? Smarter? Taller? Wiser?

Ed and Mudchicken have always been very helpful to me and complete gentlemen. Now let's see if you can meet their standards.....


I'm curious Mookie. Have you actually read some of the crap eddy b and Mudchicken have posted on this forum? Or do you only read their replies to your posts?

I'll bet you this: Post a topic that is controversial and refutes standard rail industry logic, do so in a way that avers a POV rather than "I don't know very much about such and such", and these guys will pull every concievable insult and condescending retort in the book.

These guys are not interested in debating topics, only in insulting the differing POV from theirs. Never post an alternate POV and they'll lather you in adulation.
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Posted by MichaelSol on Friday, June 16, 2006 1:55 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie
As soon as I can get you to address something I am interested in, I will ask you a multitude of questions. Will you be as tolerant of me as they have been? And can you, with all this education, answer me in layperson's terms so I will understand? I require a lot of patience. Think you are up to the task?

Sounds like an interesting challenge. I think one of the great courtesies that can be extended by anyone is to stick to topic. I think in those instances when the questions are sincerely asked, the answers are sincerely given. Not like the macho boys on this particular thread ...
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Posted by edblysard on Friday, June 16, 2006 1:53 PM
Obviously not willing to come forward with them, then?
Big surprise there...

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Posted by Mookie on Friday, June 16, 2006 1:50 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

And Michael,
Your degrees and credentials would be?

I am glad to report they would be lengthier than yours. Very glad.
And this makes you......? Better? Smarter? Taller? Wiser?

Ed and Mudchicken have always been very helpful to me and complete gentlemen. Now let's see if you can meet their standards and behave equally as well as they do.

As soon as I can get you to address something I am interested in, I will ask you a multitude of questions. Will you be as tolerant of me as they have been? And can you, with all this education, answer me in layperson's terms so I will understand? I require a lot of patience. Think you are up to the task?

Mookie

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Posted by MichaelSol on Friday, June 16, 2006 1:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

And Michael,
Your degrees and credentials would be?

I am glad to report they would be lengthier than yours. Very glad. Now, back to topic, huh?
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Posted by edblysard on Friday, June 16, 2006 1:32 PM
Relax,
It was that way when I found it![:D]

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Posted by Mookie on Friday, June 16, 2006 1:29 PM
uh-oh - footsteps - everyone behave!

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Posted by n012944 on Friday, June 16, 2006 12:41 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

The children must play, thread after thread. Thanks Zardoz, for getting back to topic.


Get off your high horse, you are just as guilty as everyone else.

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Posted by zardoz on Friday, June 16, 2006 11:26 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol

Spoke too soon.

[(-D][(-D]
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Posted by edblysard on Friday, June 16, 2006 11:07 AM
And Michael,
Your degrees and credentials would be?

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Posted by MichaelSol on Friday, June 16, 2006 11:00 AM
Spoke too soon.
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Posted by edblysard on Friday, June 16, 2006 10:54 AM
And note that Dave, true to form, failed to answer the question, and provide a shred of credentials to back up his arrogance, or disprove his inexperience.

So, Dave,
What degrees do you hold, in what fields, and from what University or College did you receive them?

My level of secondary education in no way makes this a invalid question, so the only reason one can assume you fail to answer is that you have none, and are ashamed.

Must be horrible to be afraid of the real world, and ashamed of who and what you are and your place in it all.

Oh, and to correct your misrepresentations...

PTRA is not a small time open access short line.

We are the 3rd largest Terminal/Switching railroad in the US, not a short line.
We are a neutral switching Association, not an open access railroad, ya gotta pay to play!
And I don’t run the place, I just work there!

Deal in facts, David.



QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Lack of formal education merely shows a lack of initiative on your part to have a valid input into issues beyond running a small time open access shortline. Go take some night courses in econ, Ed, you might develop an ability to see through your self imposed fog.

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Posted by MichaelSol on Friday, June 16, 2006 10:53 AM
The children must play, thread after thread. Thanks Zardoz, for getting back to topic.
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Posted by zardoz on Friday, June 16, 2006 10:38 AM
Sorry to bring the thread back on topic.....


Union Pacific moves record amount of coal
(The Associated Press circulated the following article on June 15.)

OMAHA, Neb. -- Union Pacific Corp. said Wednesday that mild weather helped its railroad haul a record amount of coal during the first five months of this year.

The nation's largest railroad loaded 5,304 coal trains during that period, which is a company record.

In May, Union Pacific loaded 1,090 coal trains in Wyoming's Southern Powder River Basin. That's 205 trains more than during May 2005 when derailments in the area slowed loading.

Union Pacific and BNSF Railway Co. -- the two main U.S. shippers of coal -- have been criticized in the past year for not keeping up with the coal demand of power generating companies. The two railroads share ownership of the tracks leading out of the Powder River Basin in northeast Wyoming.

Union Pacific Railroad has been sued by Entergy Arkansas, which claims the railroad schemed to hold back deliveries of Wyoming coal in an effort to make more money.

Union Pacific denied that claim, saying it actually turned down new contracts to ship coal in order to catch up with delayed shipments to existing customers.

Union Pacific officials say the railroad is working to expand its capacity, particularly on its coal lines, but that work can take several years to complete.

Union Pacific and BNSF together will spend about $100 million to add more than 40 miles of third- and fourth-line track in the Southern Powder River Basin.

"We value our coal franchise and are working hard to move our customers' goods during a period of unprecedented demand for coal," said Jack Koraleski, executive vice president of marketing and sales. "Our strategic investments in our railroad infrastructure, equipment, people and technology are helping us move more trains for our customers."

Union Pacific said it is also installing additional signals in Iowa that will allow faster trains to pass slower trains on crossover tracks. And the Omaha-based railroad is improving connections in East St. Louis.


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Posted by n012944 on Friday, June 16, 2006 10:30 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by n012944

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
Many other industries will maintain "unused" assets for long periods of time, because they understand the cyclical nature of business. Apparently, railroads do not understand this basic business tenet.

You see, if you scrap an asset, you don't have that asset later on when you need it. Now that the nation's energy and other transportation needs are such that abandoned lines would be put into play right now, it shows a lack of foresight (or a complete lack of concern) by the shortsighted railroad industry.

Don't these guys follow economic trends? Or did they think that the US was destined for a Soviet-style command economy, so why save assets if the railroads are going to be taken over by the federales?



Hey Dave- any chance you could make a quick list of the under-utilized or dormant rail lines that will be really busy 10 years from now? 20 years from now? That way, the railroads would have an easier time planning some of this stuff?[;)][:-,]


Again, I will ask you this: Can you name any other industry besides the rail industry that has engaged in such a canabalistic attitude toward it's hard assets?


The auto industry.


Nope, you're thinking of a few specific companies like GM or Ford, but not the aggregate industry as a whole, which continues to add assets.

GM and Ford aren't shutting those plants to extract more pricing power, they're rather on the losing end of the intra-industry competitive battle, e.g. losing market share to other auto makers, subsequently closing their plants while others open new ones. Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, et al are not lopping off assets, are they?


Thank you Dave. Since you understand the auto industry, let me put it in those terms. Think of the railroad industry in the early 80's as GM and Ford today. Then think of the trucking industry as Toyota, the air freight as Honda, and shipping as BMW. The railroads were losing out to new ways of doing things. The trucking industry was doing well with the expansion of the interstate highways, many of the 1st generation jet airliners were being moved from passenger to freight service, and the shipping industry was doing well with ACofE projects. Since you wanted examples how about the steel industry? They have gotten rid of a lot of capacity since the 1950's, was that a monopoly conspiracy too? I look foward to the spin that you put on this.


Bert


I am still waiting for your spin on the steel industry.


Bert

An "expensive model collector"

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