QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol Colstrip to Big Stone Power Plant. BN originated the train at Colstrip, and Milwaukee took the train at Miles City, one of the Eleven Western Gateways under the BN merger. Each company supplied half the power for a run-through operation. It generated about $2.5 million a year for Milwaukee. Bechtel Corp. designed the car covers for Milwaukee and I believe the covers were part of the order for the coal cars. BNSF still does that run. I hear them all day and night when I'm in Aberdeen,S.D. The cars with covers must be long gone.
QUOTE: Originally posted by MichaelSol Colstrip to Big Stone Power Plant. BN originated the train at Colstrip, and Milwaukee took the train at Miles City, one of the Eleven Western Gateways under the BN merger. Each company supplied half the power for a run-through operation. It generated about $2.5 million a year for Milwaukee. Bechtel Corp. designed the car covers for Milwaukee and I believe the covers were part of the order for the coal cars.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
fastrains wrote:QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel A to Snoqualmie: why didn't BN buy the Snoqualmie-pass-line and shut it's own line down if the MILW had the better alignment? The BN did own the Snoqualimie Pass line from 1980 to 1990 but never because the CEO at the time had interests else where and a rockslide sometime in the mid 80s sealed its fate an some time in 1987/88 the tracks were removed from ceder falls to Easton, the tracks from Renton to Ceder Falls remained so the BN could reach the branch line to Snoqualimie to serve a lumber mill but it closed in late 1990 and the track were removed in early 1991 I think BTW: I am not sure if the dates are correct
QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel A to Snoqualmie: why didn't BN buy the Snoqualmie-pass-line and shut it's own line down if the MILW had the better alignment?
It should be noted that at the time BN decided to forego operating the Snoqualmie Pass line it also had decided to shut down the Stampede Pass line as well. BN opted for the Columbia Gorge line as the preferred low grade route to the coast, and Stevens Pass for the intermodals, and everything else became redundant trackage in their view.
Although Snoqualmie Pass is superior to Stevens Pass, since BN would have only operated over ex-Milwaukee tracks from the Ellensburg area to the coast and not the Lind to Ellensburg section, any traffic over a Snoqualmie Pass reroute would still have to ply the ex-NP through the Yakima Valley and the Yakima River Canyon which is a low speed route and is much longer mileage between Spokane and Seattle than either the ex-PCE or Stevens Pass. It would have taken an extra crew district and another 8 to 10 hours via Yakima/Snoqualmie as compared to Stevens Pass when coming from Spokane to Seattle.
By the time BN figured out it might actually need a third rail line between Spokane and Seattle, the Milwaukee rails were long gone, and only the Stampede pass rails had remained mothballed.
corn maze wrote:On train rides:I just checked out, "The Olympian - A Ride to Remember," from the library through inter-library loan. I'm just getting into it. It's good. Like the poster above, the author also remarks how smooth the ride was. Those trains were obviously tops in their class back in the day.
The author, Stan Johnson, is completing another book on the Milwaukee -- dealing with the construction of the Pacific Coast Extension. A big undertaking. His stepfather, Frank Feeblecorn, "Feebie," was a well-known and beloved conductor on the Milwaukee.
A mutual friend, Charlie Rock, a long-time Milwaukee Road conductor at Alberton, Montana, died Wednesday, and we both just heard about it this morning. Stan posted the following comment:
"I am personally saddened by Charlie's passing. I have spent a number ofhours with him talking Milwaukee as his father and my step-father workedclosely together and there were lots of stories to tell.
"Charlie remembered being carried as a lad onto the train by dad, bound for a hospital in Spokane after severely injuring his leg. Charlies' brother and my family are old friends and his brother preached my step-father's funeral sermon."
Small world at Milwaukee Road.
Stan's new book is the most detailed look at the construction of the PCE yet written, and will be a milestone insofar as technical books about construction of transcontinental railways in the U.S.. I was humbled to be asked to write the foreword for the book.
MichaelSol wrote: corn maze wrote:On train rides:I just checked out, "The Olympian - A Ride to Remember," from the library through inter-library loan. I'm just getting into it. It's good. Like the poster above, the author also remarks how smooth the ride was. Those trains were obviously tops in their class back in the day.The author, Stan Johnson, is completing another book on the Milwaukee -- dealing with the construction of the Pacific Coast Extension. A big undertaking. His stepfather, Frank Feeblecorn, "Feebie," was a well-known and beloved conductor on the Milwaukee.A mutual friend, Charlie Rock, a long-time Milwaukee Road conductor at Alberton, Montana, died Wednesday, and we both just heard about it this morning. Stan posted the following comment:"I am personally saddened by Charlie's passing. I have spent a number ofhours with him talking Milwaukee as his father and my step-father workedclosely together and there were lots of stories to tell."Charlie remembered being carried as a lad onto the train by dad, bound for a hospital in Spokane after severely injuring his leg. Charlies' brother and my family are old friends and his brother preached my step-father's funeral sermon."Small world at Milwaukee Road.Stan's new book is the most detailed look at the construction of the PCE yet written, and will be a milestone insofar as technical books about construction of transcontinental railways in the U.S.. I was humbled to be asked to write the foreword for the book.
I see from another thread, that the Stanley Johnson book is out now. What can anyone tell me about the book? Thanks
Murphy Siding wrote: One of my nieces goes to high school in Faith, S.D. She said that Faith got it's name when the Milwaukee Road came into town(and the town came into being). There were to be three towns in a row: Faith, Hope, and Charity. In a later period of time, they could have been named Larry, Curley, and Moe, but that's a whole different story. Unfortuneately, Faith was to be the end of the line. The (Isabell(?) ) branch, and the Milwaukee Road are long gone.. From every photo I've seen of trains in Faith, it appears that the only freight was cattle and wool.
Quite a few years ago Trains editor David P. Morgan took up the Faith branch as a kind of cause celebre, specifically as an example of the unconsitutional taking of private property (from The Milwaukee Road stockholders) for dubious public benefit.
Apparently the line was losing a lot of money, but the I.C.C. kept foot dragging about abandonment undoubtedly in response to pressure from the South Dakota congressional delegation. Fortunately the proceedings in this case gave rise to a novel idea, one which made it easier to determine whether a line was worth keeping or not. The Commission applied a new notion wherein the line could be considered viable if it could generate X-number of revenue carloads per route mile per year. The line fell way short of the Commission's formula, the prospects for the line's future didn't look too hot either, so the abandonment petition was granted.
About three years ago I was driving from Aberdeen to Deadwood and decided to follow as much of this line as I could. Wow, you talk about a nowhere-to-nowhere operation ... I was just amazed. Heck, the revenue generating capacity of the Murdo/Rapid City line was a freight heavy-hauler compared to what I saw out there in the northwest quarter of So.Dak.! It's a wonder that the line lasted as long as it did!
All that empty country is where cows and sheep are raised in large numbers. Faith was a fairly typical granger line, and did well on sheep and cattle until trucks were just a better option for moving them, but then it briefly sprung back to life in the early 1970s. A 106 mile branch, DuCharme to Faith:
1951: $607,609
1952: $667,639
1953: $482,254
1954: $426,004
1955: $393,916
1956:$310,450
1957: $196,025
1958: $298,059
1959: $251,799
1960 $95,817
1961 $153,374
1962 $269,547
1963 $78,534
1964 $135,913
1965 $216,522
1966 $321,324
1967 $190,138
1968 $77,147
1969 $151,847
1970 $123,464
1971 $246,445
1972 $575,899
1973 $529,850
1974 $235,408
1975 $90,066
1976 $202,899
1977 $95,951
Unless they did some uncharacteristic maintenance, I doubt the line lost a "lot" of money, but probably had a couple of years -- and trend lines -- that it could be made as a poster child for granger line abandonment.
Michael,
Did you ever partake of Milw coffee ? I'm not talking about the stuff in the dining cars or the office coffee.
Randy Stahl wrote: Michael, Did you ever partake of Milw coffee ? I'm not talking about the stuff in the dining cars or the office coffee.
You will have to explain that one to me, Randy.
he coffee pots we had in Milwaukee looked they had been coupled in !! The coffee didn't exactly perculate as such but more or less just boiled until someone turned it off or unplugged it . I had a bit of... texture, It could knock out a hangover in 10 minutes. The guys at the cutoff had a chicory coffee that when cooked correctly would make my eyes water. Sol Luna was the keeper of the coffee and did a fine job. I was thinking about Milw coffee today , I found that in Poland they have "railway" coffee. Nothing has come close to Milw coffee !!
I know that the lines west had the same dented coffee pots , we found bunches of them in boxcars.. and they still worked.
Ha!
There was a coffee pot like that East Portal Substation -- I wasn't much of a coffee drinker back then, and the coffee from that pot didn't encourage me any in that direction ...
MichaelSol wrote: Ha!There was a coffee pot like that East Portal Substation -- I wasn't much of a coffee drinker back then, and the coffee from that pot didn't encourage me any in that direction ...
All you needed was a hangover and you would have been driven to the Milw coffee.
Bob-Fryml wrote: Quite a few years ago Trains editor David P. Morgan took up the Faith branch as a kind of cause celebre, specifically as an example of the unconsitutional taking of private property (from The Milwaukee Road stockholders) for dubious public benefit.
Bob-Fryml wrote:About three years ago I was driving from Aberdeen to Deadwood and decided to follow as much of this line as I could. Wow, you talk about a nowhere-to-nowhere operation ... I was just amazed. Heck, the revenue generating capacity of the Murdo/Rapid City line was a freight heavy-hauler compared to what I saw out there in the northwest quarter of So.Dak.! It's a wonder that the line lasted as long as it did!After you leave the metropolis of Mobridge, the population density flirts with negative numbers for a long ways to the west.
Bob-Fryml wrote:About three years ago I was driving from Aberdeen to Deadwood and decided to follow as much of this line as I could. Wow, you talk about a nowhere-to-nowhere operation ... I was just amazed. Heck, the revenue generating capacity of the Murdo/Rapid City line was a freight heavy-hauler compared to what I saw out there in the northwest quarter of So.Dak.! It's a wonder that the line lasted as long as it did!
MichaelSol wrote: All that empty country is where cows and sheep are raised in large numbers. Faith was a fairly typical granger line, and did well on sheep and cattle until trucks were just a better option for moving them, but then it briefly sprung back to life in the early 1970s. A 106 mile branch, DuCharme to Faith:1951: $607,6091952: $667,6391953: $482,2541954: $426,0041955: $393,9161956:$310,4501957: $196,0251958: $298,0591959: $251,7991960 $95,8171961 $153,3741962 $269,5471963 $78,5341964 $135,9131965 $216,5221966 $321,3241967 $190,1381968 $77,1471969 $151,8471970 $123,4641971 $246,4451972 $575,8991973 $529,8501974 $235,4081975 $90,0661976 $202,8991977 $95,951Unless they did some uncharacteristic maintenance, I doubt the line lost a "lot" of money, but probably had a couple of years -- and trend lines -- that it could be made as a poster child for granger line abandonment.
I would like to thank the orginal poster for the pictures. I have always had an intrest with Milwaukee's PCE.
My experience begins not too long ago as I am only 38. In the early 80's my father talked to the track crews off and on and he would take me down to meet them (as I very much liked trains). Eventually he began to talk to the local engineers, ect.... As time passed we were able to get a ride on one of the locals from Janesville, WI to Davis Jct, IL. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 12hrs long. I wish we had taken pictures but all I have are memories... All I can remember is that there were 3 SW1's and we boarded at the roundhouse in Janesville. (which incedently was were F7 #102C was being stored). I sat in the firemans seat for most of the trip, I think I was in shock :) . However somewhere south of South Beloit and under the cover of darkness the engineer let me sit in the engineers seat and blow the whistle at the crossings and under his command adjust the throttle. For a 13yr old I was in heaven.
Later on in 84-85 my dad and his father started purchasing cabooses from Harold Mahoney that was in charge of scrapping things. We spent many hours walking around the Milwaukee Shops in Milwaukee, WI (sorry no pictures as I was still only 14-16years old an my dad just never thought about it.) I can fondly remember coming in on I-94 and looking down on the rail yards. We came in and drove right next to the turntable and stalls. The roundhouse had previous burned down but they still used the stalls as storage tracks. There was a small concrete wall around the stalls. Just after that was Harolds office building. Sitting next to one of the shop buildings under a large roof was Dynometer car X5000? The one that eventually went to the IL Rwy Museum. Harold showed us around the shops it was very impressive yet sadding at the same time. All of the building were empty at the time. The buildings were the orginal brick buildings not the newer car barns next to the Ba
It saddened me even more when the yard and all the shops were torn down. Last year I drove by there and it's nothing but parking lots..........
As you can see that even though I knew the Milwaukee Road at the very end of it's life it still touched me very much. The employee's were all very nice. I just wish I had pictures to go along with the memories. I have had a hard time trying to find pictures of the Milwaukee shops in Milwaukee. Why is there so little information on the largest shops on the system? The shops that made the Milwaukee Road.
Thanks for a place to share the memories.......... Todd
Murphy Siding wrote:solzrules: Enjoyed the photos, thanks. About 5 years ago, I was at a wedding in Mobridge. I tried to find the wye for the(long gone) branchline to Faith and Isabell just west of the river, with no luck. I assumed it should have been just accross the bridge, before the line starts climbing. In hindsight, I would bet it's under the river/lake, as the line was gone before the Missouri was dammed up. I *think* that is the third bridge at Mobridge.The SDL-39: Local legend was that they were ordered for use on light duty branch lines in the Dakotas, but nearly every other picture I see shows them sonewhere in Wisconsin. Anybody know what the range of those beasts was?
Murphy, I know this thread is as old as the hills, but I have a South Dakota issued highway map dated 1973-74 at it shows the Faith and Isabel lines as still being there.
At the Brookings city library they have/had a book listing the abandonment dates of all lines up to the point the book was published. I'm going over today and I'll give it a look. If it's still there I'll remember the title and give it to you in case you're ever up that way.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
Murphy Siding wrote:I read that the MILW line from Yankton, to Platte, S.D. was the first district on the railroad to fully dieselize, around 1950. The line, now gone, was a grain-gathering line built with 60# rail and not much ballast. Several 1% grades convinced the railroad to buy Alco RSC-2's for the line. Does anyone know what areas were to last to dieselize? You would have thought branchlines in the boonies wouldn't be a big priority.
Murphy, I know it's an old thread, but the Napa Junction to Platte line hasn't been used in 15 years and is weeded over, but it was not removed.
As you have probably already heard, (this post is just in case you haven't) an ethanol plant is being built at Wagner and the line from Napa Junction to Wagner is going to be upgraded to handle 10 MPH trains from the plant, plus I would assume whatever customers are left on the line in between. The are not upgrading to Platte. Dakota Southern is going to operate the line. DS has trackage rights on the BNSF from Mitchell to Sioux City.
ButchKnouse wrote: Murphy, I know it's an old thread, but the Napa Junction to Platte line hasn't been used in 15 years and is weeded over, but it was not removed.As you have probably already heard, (this post is just in case you haven't) an ethanol plant is being built at Wagner and the line from Napa Junction to Wagner is going to be upgraded to handle 10 MPH trains from the plant, plus I would assume whatever customers are left on the line in between. The are not upgrading to Platte. Dakota Southern is going to operate the line. DS has trackage rights on the BNSF from Mitchell to Sioux City.
With consideration of the need to rebuild the line almost completely, and, with the beating new ethanol plant proposals are taking, I'd call this project dead in the water at this time.
solzrules,
Thanks for the pics,I dont know anything about the Milw Rd except that I loved to look at the streamlined hudsons and pacifics they had,I believe they were the most beautiful steam train anywhere ! Bar none..I dont understand why "The Road" didnt take down the signal mast and dismantle the substations but took track and ties up? Was this all that was required to abandon the routes?
I can add a bit to this regarding the former MILW mainline thru north-central South Dakota. My dad's family's farmstead was five miles north of Bowdle, SD (MP 763.9). I used to spend summers in the '70s at the farm, and later "in town" when Grandpa and Grandma moved there following retirement from active farming. The mainline was just north of their house on the west side of town, across a field.
My MILW memories were of the Columbia and Big Stone coal trains - grain back then seemed to move intermittently in locals eastward. This was the days before low-moisture corn and soybeans were developed that really changed farming in the area - everything back then was oats, wheat or barley for the most part. Now the ethanol "boom" and rising commodity prices are making this area fruitful again.
When the MILW left for good in '82 Cascade Green took over - what I'd give for those green SD40-2s now - but the railroad pretty much looked the same except for new BN switchstand targets and roadway signs. BNSF has since really wiped what made the line uniquely Milwaukee - the pole line is gone as so is the old US&S CAB (Controled Automatic Block - "poor man's" CTC). Modern hooded ABS signals now stand where constant-lit searchlights once held guard.
To me so much has changed that the Milwaukee's ghosts have moved on, no longer able to recognize the old Aberdeen Division. Still, I'm glad this rail remains active - much better than the weeds covering the ROW west of Terry, MT. I guess in that aspect I can't complain.
Murphy Siding wrote: Bob-Fryml wrote: Quite a few years ago Trains editor David P. Morgan took up the Faith branch as a kind of cause celebre, specifically as an example of the unconsitutional taking of private property (from The Milwaukee Road stockholders) for dubious public benefit. Bob-was that an article in Trains Mgazine? If so, would you happen to know the date?
Murphy:- It seems to me that the late Mr. Morgan discussed this issue somewhere in a 1968 to 1972 time frame.
/s/ Bob
igoldberg wrote:OK, what caused the demise of the Milkwaukee??
WHOO, BOY, ARE YOU OPENING A CAN OF WORMS! Certain of the learned cognoscenti who have intimate knowledge of The Milwaukee Road's latter day managements and finances have gone into great depth in discussing this issue. Their presentation of facts and analysis of the railroad's decline have been fascinating reading, and I cannot fully express in any number less than maybe 10,000 words how much I've appreciated the time and effort those folks have put into that discussion.
Unfortunately there have been a few "Northern Lines " types who have stirred up the pot to such hysterical proportions advancing many issues in favor of the big "Cascade Green Machine" that the discussions became quite ugly at times.
So for "IGoldberg" I would suggest that you do a historical word search through this category of threads and pick out a couple of the longer Milwaukee Road discussions and within them read what was written. You'll not only learn a lot like I did, but you'll also learn why "Murphy Siding" wants to keep this
"A Milwaukee Road Non-confrontational thread."
Peace everyone! /s/ Bob
Northlake, Ill. - Tuesday, 22 July 2008.
Two weeks before the start of Amtrak, I played hooky from college for three days to ride a couple of passenger trains that I always wanted to experience. On a Thursday I rode the Empire Builder, Chicago-to-Minneapolis, and that following Saturday I rode the Morning Hiawatha back to Chicago. A Pullman bedroom up and a parlor car seat back - both were great trips!
The Morning Hiawathas, eastbound and westbound, were The Milwaukee Road's last regularly scheduled passenger trains between The Windy City and The Twin Cities. These schedules had ordinary parlor cars carrying the markers. With the earlier demise of the Afternoon Hiawathas, the trains that carried the Road's ultra distinctive Skytop Lounge parlor cars, why didn't the company equip the "morning hi's" with this distinctive equipment?
By the early winter of 1971, I should think that The Milwaukee Road management would have already made a commitment to join Railpax (later called Amtrak); so even if the attractiveness of the Skytops would have boosted business a little, what difference would it have made?
And here's a somewhat related question. Given that in 1971 both the Burlington Northern and The Milwaukee Road had active passenger lines connecting Chicago with Saint Paul/Minneapolis, when did the National Railroad Passenger Corporation decide to favor the latter's route? Or did the existence of Milwaukee being the largest intermediate station on either route make that question a no-brainer?
Just curious.
Murphy Siding wrote: ButchKnouse wrote: Murphy, I know it's an old thread, but the Napa Junction to Platte line hasn't been used in 15 years and is weeded over, but it was not removed.As you have probably already heard, (this post is just in case you haven't) an ethanol plant is being built at Wagner and the line from Napa Junction to Wagner is going to be upgraded to handle 10 MPH trains from the plant, plus I would assume whatever customers are left on the line in between. The are not upgrading to Platte. Dakota Southern is going to operate the line. DS has trackage rights on the BNSF from Mitchell to Sioux City. Yes, it's an old thread, but a very interesting subject. I was down in that area about a month ago. A lot of the line is gone. Anywhere it crosses a paved highway, it looks like the rails were removed, and the pavement run through. Also, it seems to have been ripped up where it goes through a town. Tyndall, for example, seemed to have no trace of the railroad inside town. With consideration of the need to rebuild the line almost completely, and, with the beating new ethanol plant proposals are taking, I'd call this project dead in the water at this time.
Are the ROW berms gone too? Too bad if they are, with the rising price of fuel it would be a shame to tear up a ROW now.
As far as the book at the Brookings library, I wasn't able to stay as long as I thought I could, but I last saw it in the books about South Dakota section.
On my way to Brookings I got a big suprise. They are laying new track on the DM&E. The last time they laid new track it ended between Hetland and Lake Preston. I assume they started at that point and are working their way to Wolsey. Which means uninterupted heavy welded rail from Springfield, Minnesota to Pierre, probably 250-300 miles. I just assume it's welded, since the last stretch was. After they get through Cavour I'll go out and have a look and find out for sure. They were 5 miles east of Cavour yesterday, heading west, which puts them roughly 26 miles from Wolsey. The trains haul butt through Miller when I'm there on Fridays, so they'll start going through Cavour quick too. I imagine the westbounders will be slowing down for the stop in Huron, but the eastbounders will be moving. (Huron is a division point with no through trains that I'm aware of.) Plus, supposedly there is a speed restriction on the James River viaduct.
R.J. Corman's men brought big load of equipement. They got lucky with the Manchester and Iroquois sidings no longer being used, both sidings were in use.
As long as we're on the topic of the Milwaukee Road, I have to say they had the prettiest locomotives and the ugliest switches. In Pierre there are at least 2 places where people are using Milwaukee Road switches as lawn decorations. And all Pierre ever has had was CN&W/DM&E.
Murphy, if you ever want to send me a direct e-mail, there's a link on the Huset's site under Past Winners and Champions.
There is some interesting stuff on this website covering the western remains of the CMSP&P-
http://r67northern.blogspot.com:80/
Bob-Fryml wrote: Northlake, Ill. - Tuesday, 22 July 2008. Two weeks before the start of Amtrak, I played hooky from college for three days to ride a couple of passenger trains that I always wanted to experience. On a Thursday I rode the Empire Builder, Chicago-to-Minneapolis, and that following Saturday I rode the Morning Hiawatha back to Chicago. A Pullman bedroom up and a parlor car seat back - both were great trips!The Morning Hiawathas, eastbound and westbound, were The Milwaukee Road's last regularly scheduled passenger trains between The Windy City and The Twin Cities. These schedules had ordinary parlor cars carrying the markers. With the earlier demise of the Afternoon Hiawathas, the trains that carried the Road's ultra distinctive Skytop Lounge parlor cars, why didn't the company equip the "morning hi's" with this distinctive equipment?By the early winter of 1971, I should think that The Milwaukee Road management would have already made a commitment to join Railpax (later called Amtrak); so even if the attractiveness of the Skytops would have boosted business a little, what difference would it have made? And here's a somewhat related question. Given that in 1971 both the Burlington Northern and The Milwaukee Road had active passenger lines connecting Chicago with Saint Paul/Minneapolis, when did the National Railroad Passenger Corporation decide to favor the latter's route? Or did the existence of Milwaukee being the largest intermediate station on either route make that question a no-brainer?Just curious./s/ Bob
Ultimately I think it had to be because of the MILW's mainline serving Milwaukee. On the former "Q" mainline, besides Aurora, all you had pretty much was Savanna, Prairie Du Chien (45 miles from my hometown in N.E. Iowa), and La Crosse. Ironically, a similar situation existed in the Chicago - Omaha corridor where both the BN and MILW had active passenger service. Here, it was a bit of the opposite even though the MILW went through the Cedar Rapids suburb of Marion and Perry is roughly 35 miles from Des Moines. I can't help but wonder sometimes if Amtrak had chosen the MILW for the Chicago - Omaha segment if the mainline from Green Island to Council Bluffs wouldn't be alive and kicking today.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.